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I guess I always assumed the answer was yes, but it seems RAW a wizard in a prestige class (say Loremaster) doesn't in fact get any free spells added to his spellbook at each new level. Doesn't seem right, what do you guys think?
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Honestly I always figed that was part of the "+1 to existing class caster level" As the free spells are part of your spellcasting the same way as spells known are apart of a sorcerer or a bard.
Honestly I always figed that was part of the "+1 to existing class caster level" As the free spells are part of your spellcasting the same way as spells known are apart of a sorcerer or a bard.
Yeah, this is the way I've always seen it done, but I just noticed that RAW they don't seem to. The verbage in Loremaster (and I suspect other PrCs) specifically calls out spells known for spontaneous casters only. Furthermore the "adding two spells" section of wizard goes on about wizard level this and that, not caster level or even just level so it seems as though RAW that's something you don't get with PrCs.
It all comes down to interpretation I imagine, like so much in this game, I'm just seeking alternative points of view on the matter and yours is much appreciated.
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We noticed that back in 3rd edition in the Living Greyhawk campaign as well, but no one ever really seemed to care about it there. It was a few spells, seemed like you should get them and it made taking PrC's mostly pointless if you didn't have something in your spell book to cast.
I wonder if sorcerer and bard were worded in a similar manner...
Honestly I always figed that was part of the "+1 to existing class caster level" As the free spells are part of your spellcasting the same way as spells known are a part of a sorcerer or a bard.
+1
Honestly I always figed that was part of the "+1 to existing class caster level" As the free spells are part of your spellcasting the same way as spells known are a part of a sorcerer or a bard.+1
+2, it is assumed to be part of their research in their spare time, seems to be the same for a loremaster and a wizard, if they get spellcasting advancement they should get this too. Not even the strictest GM I played with made a problem out off it.
This could really use a ruling as there are now 2 classes (wizard and Witch) who run into this problem.
Please pardon the necromancy
~will
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I guess I always assumed the answer was yes, but it seems RAW a wizard in a prestige class (say Loremaster) doesn't in fact get any free spells added to his spellbook at each new level. Doesn't seem right, what do you guys think?
Spells and Spellbook are two separate features for wizards, so the question is a reasonable one. A strict reading of the RAW, to me, is that the prestige class doesn't provide the free spells to the wizard's spellbook.
There was no official clarification of it during WotC's oversight of 3.5; this was sought by a number of people due to organized play issues.
I`ve noticed this come up before in the context of specific Paizo PRPG Caster PrC`s. (Daivrat in Qadira Companion)
The fact that spontaneous casters are specifically called out as gaining Spells Known makes one think that Prepared Casters indeed do NOT gain any `spells known` in their spellbook/familiar/etc.
It seems harsh on Prepared/Spellbook Casters,
but I guess I can swallow that if it`s actually verified this is RAI.
If not, there definitely needs to be errata to fix the issue.
OMG!!! No casters get 'free' spells wheb in a PrC! I've gotta make serious changes in my game if this stands a correction doesn't stop this. Or do I?
From the Mystic Theurge
Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day,---> <---, and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.
The wizard's spells known is determined by the spellbook. It seems pretty straight forward to me. They can't just say spellbook in because they had no way to know what future classes may be invented.
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The wizard's spells known is determined by the spellbook. It seems pretty straight forward to me. They can't just say spellbook in because they had no way to know what future classes may be invented.
A wizard's spells known isn't determined by his spellbook. It isn't a one to one relationship. And, the term "spells known" is a game term related to spontaneous casters. Whenever this discussion has come up, this is the essence of the debate.
The wizard's spells known is determined by the spellbook. It seems pretty straight forward to me. They can't just say spellbook in because they had no way to know what future classes may be invented.A wizard's spells known isn't determined by his spellbook. It isn't a one to one relationship. And, the term "spells known" is a game term related to spontaneous casters. Whenever this discussion has come up, this is the essence of the debate.
Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard's Intelligence modifier.
A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Wizard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.
This does nothing to address the point I made. If you want to add some logic to rules cites, I'll be happy to respond to it.
"Spells known" is actually spells available. You can't really say they(wizards) don't know the spells when the book says they learn spells, and it says spells learned/known are in the spellbook. The only difference between a wizard and sorc is that a sorc's known/available are in his head, and a wizard keeps his in a book, since which also keeps him from immediate access. The sorc keeping his spells in his head makes sense because he is a spontaneous caster. The wizard spells in the book fits archetypes, and it backs up fluff as to why a wizard can just cast what he wants whenever he wants to.
Sorceror
Spells:
.....A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level.
Both seem to fit the spells available concept I mentioned, and it should also be noted that spells known are spells learned. A wizard does not need a spellbook to learn spells. He needs the book to keep them in.
You will notice that the "spells" section which tells how he learns spell, and the spellbook section are separate. The spellbook is only there to allow for the wizard to store and prepare spells that he has learned. It is nothing more than a tool.
It is the "spells" section which determines how both classes learn spells, and I have the spells section from each class.
I will now check the loremaster.
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I did check the loremaster and while it starts off as--> "When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class." the next part "...spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster)"., does make it seem strange when that part makes it seem like an exception to a rule. This would not make sense because both the wizard would also be a good way to enter the class, even though I can see the bard as a possible entrant. I don't think the intent is to handicap wizards for this class, but it can be read that way. Time for me to hit the FAQ so it can be errata's or explained.
Edit: It should be noted that the mystic theurge does not have that limitation(?).
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Yeah, I looked into this whole bit several years ago. I expect that there was a change that took place in the concept during the early development stage of 3e or 3.5. That, early on, there was some intended differentiation of the example PrCs that were included in the core books. This differentiation later was lost, and it was internalized that all spellcasting advancement included all elements of the set (spells per day, caster level, (class specific rule about learning new stuff)), even though the text has changed. In fact, the 3.5 DMG version of arcane trickster gives additional spells per day, but does not explicitly advance caster level nor new spells in whatever form. (Note: the Pathfinder version fixes this for Arcane Trickster.)
Here's the thing: A spontaneous caster can ONLY gain new spells via the level up process. For a wizard, however, the new spells in the spellbook are effectively a matter of economics. In fact, it's a matter of economics that is much less meaningful in Pathfinder due to the change in pricing and default NPC willingness to share.
The point that I made that I have not seen addressed is that "spells known" is a game term that applies to spontaneous casters. It is at the top of tables 3-4 and 3-15, for example. "Joe knows 4 spells" is not synonymous with "Joe has 4 known spells." This is akin to the melee difference between "Marty charges the orc" and "Marty rushes up to the orc and attacks him."
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So, while I think that there was an intended difference early on, along the lines of (my words follow), "gaining a level in wizard is distinguished by intense research with the benefit of adding new spells, but prestige classes don't get this." Prestige Classes, originally intended to provide flavor and campaign differentiation, became more like "Graduate Classes." And with that, the original distinctions, with different and specific wording, were lost. I think that the current, and nearly universal interpretation, is to include advancement in spell diversity in whatever form it comes from the base class.
Effectively, I think this is an evolved RAI, but was not the original RAI, and is not reflected in the RAW.
Yeah, I looked into this whole bit several years ago. I expect that there was a change that took place in the concept during the early development stage of 3e or 3.5. That, early on, there was some intended differentiation of the example PrCs that were included in the core books. This differentiation later was lost, and it was internalized that all spellcasting advancement included all elements of the set (spells per day, caster level, (class specific rule about learning new stuff)), even though the text has changed. In fact, the 3.5 DMG version of arcane trickster gives additional spells per day, but does not explicitly advance caster level nor new spells in whatever form. (Note: the Pathfinder version fixes this for Arcane Trickster.)
Here's the thing: A spontaneous caster can ONLY gain new spells via the level up process. For a wizard, however, the new spells in the spellbook are effectively a matter of economics. In fact, it's a matter of economics that is much less meaningful in Pathfinder due to the change in pricing and default NPC willingness to share.
The point that I made that I have not seen addressed is that "spells known" is a game term that applies to spontaneous casters. It is at the top of tables 3-4 and 3-15, for example. "Joe knows 4 spells" is not synonymous with "Joe has 4 known spells." This is akin to the melee difference between "Marty charges the orc" and "Marty rushes up to the orc and attacks him."
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So, while I think that there was an intended difference early on, along the lines of (my words follow), "gaining a level in wizard is distinguished by intense research with the benefit of adding new spells, but prestige classes don't get this." Prestige Classes, originally intended to provide flavor and campaign differentiation, became more like "Graduate Classes." And with that, the original distinctions, with different and specific wording, were lost. I think that the current, and nearly universal interpretation, is to include advancement in...
There is no fluff reason as to why a wizard that advances in caster levels would stop studying wizard spells. Even the sorcerer has to practice to determine his next spell. I don't mind buying scrolls because when I play I have reasonable DM's, but I can see a DM being difficult with the issue of buying scrolls, and also not having any enemy wizards to get spells from after they are defeated.
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There is no fluff reason as to why a wizard that advances in caster levels would stop studying wizard spells. Even the sorcerer has to practice to determine his next spell. I don't mind buying scrolls because when I play I have reasonable DM's, but I can see a DM being difficult with the issue of buying scrolls, and also not having any enemy wizards to get spells from after they are defeated.
Sure there is. The section on adding new spells to a wizard spellbook says they get the extra spells as a result of research. That's fluff. There is an inherent assumption in the game that the class abilities are the result of the stuff the character does with his time...they don't just spring out of thin air. This goes back to the original design of the game, regardless of the degree to which it has been abstracted. I think it's reasonable to suggest that the context here is "the guy gaining the level in the class I'm about to talk about, not just the adept who calls himself wizard, nor the sorcerer whom everyone calls wizard 'cause they don't know better."
That same section (p.219) then goes on to say, "Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice." Wizard level. Not Loremaster level. Not Mystic Theurge level. Wizard level.
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I don't mind buying scrolls because when I play I have reasonable DM's, but I can see a DM being difficult with the issue of buying scrolls, and also not having any enemy wizards to get spells from after they are defeated.Forgot about this part. Yeah, if the DM is taking the No New Spells For Wizards course of unpopularity, decisions on the availability need to either 1) reflect that to still make them available, or 2) reflect a coherent position that prestige classes are not merely Wizard-but-even-better.
There is no fluff reason as to why a wizard that advances in caster levels would stop studying wizard spells. Even the sorcerer has to practice to determine his next spell. I don't mind buying scrolls because when I play I have reasonable DM's, but I can see a DM being difficult with the issue of buying scrolls, and also not having any enemy wizards to get spells from after they are defeated.Sure there is. The section on adding new spells to a wizard spellbook says they get the extra spells as a result of research. That's fluff. There is an inherent assumption in the game that the class abilities are the result of the stuff the character does with his time...they don't just spring out of thin air. This goes back to the original design of the game, regardless of the degree to which it has been abstracted. I think it's reasonable to suggest that the context here is "the guy gaining the level in the class I'm about to talk about, not just the adept who calls himself wizard, nor the sorcerer whom everyone calls wizard 'cause they don't know better."
That same section (p.219) then goes on to say, "Each time a character attains a new wizard level, he gains two spells of his choice." Wizard level. Not Loremaster level. Not Mystic Theurge level. Wizard level.
I was saying that both classes are assumed to be practicing new spells during down time, and nothing I see dictates a wizard doing nothing, while a sorcerer would continue to learn.
I just realized I got the spellbook and spell section crossed up. I also just realized the PrC's only advance spells per day so you do seem to be correct. I wonder if the MT is a mistake or the exception. Right now it is looking to be a mistake.
Edit: I still think fluffwise he would continue to try to learn new spells. I guess I could refluff it so that his dedication to both class means he can't learn new wizard spells when he levels up even if he is becoming more powerful.
Spells per Day
At the indicated levels, an arcane archer gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an arcane archer, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
emphasis mine.
With the exception of Mystic Theurge, all PrC that advance casting contain that line verbatim, (though the rest of the text may have different wording.)
In any case, only spontaneous casters gain spells known, but they don't get to train those spells out at higher levels like they would if they were single classed.
Mystic Theurge is the one exception, for which one could make the arguement that a Wizards spellbook is his spells known despite the fact that spontaeous casters have an actual class feature called "Spells Known" and the coresponding prepared caster feature is called something completely different.
The other PrCs are quite clear.
Fluff wise, a Wizard gets free money, (in the form of free spells in his book) because of his devotion to being a Wizard and learning the arcane arts. If he splits his focus, say, by taking a PrC, no more free money for him. If he wants more spells, he'll need to make nice with some NPC Wizards and learn from them. (Like he would for any other spell other than is free Wizard spells)
Its part of gaining a new spell level. Otherwise the wizard wouldn't be able to cast any spells of their new level unless the dm let them spent a week researching new spells.
Its part of gaining a new spell level. Otherwise the wizard wouldn't be able to cast any spells of their new level unless the dm let them spent a week researching new spells.
And this is different from every other edition of D&D how? A smart Wizard will start researching spells before he levels up anyway so he has those spells immediately available.
Its part of gaining a new spell level. Otherwise the wizard wouldn't be able to cast any spells of their new level unless the dm let them spent a week researching new spells.
That is how I have always played it but by the RAW it does not read that way, and I really don't think it makes sense for a wizard to not get spells.
@ QS: When you research spells on your own, as in you tell the DM you are researching for spells, you get them when the research is done, not by level.|
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Its part of gaining a new spell level. Otherwise the wizard wouldn't be able to cast any spells of their new level unless the dm let them spent a week researching new spells.
A wizard can add spells to his spellbook of higher level than he can cast via scrolls and/or copying from another spellbook. The only thing keeping him from having spells already in his spellbook is lack of desire or GM fiat.
The fact that Mystic Theurge has signifigantly different wording on this subject
than Lorekeeper or Daivrat (whose wording is identical in referring solely to spontaneous casters)
makes me think that Mystic Therge IS intended to grant new spellbook spells to Wizards,
though Errata to clarify ´spells known´ = spellbook, etc, would be ideal
(I think witch familiar`s spell repository being `spells known` is in a clearer position than wizards).
But that just leaves the Mystic Theurge a specific exception/ allowance for Wizards,
as the rest of the PrCs clearly don`t seem to give non-Spontaneous Casters any new spells.
Again, if that`s RAI, I`d just like to hear that from the developers.
..Hitting the FAQ button on the top post...