Is the concept of Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe economically viable.
Not sure. But I’ll try to put one together.
First: what should it look like? We’re going to need a physical structure to work with.
Like a Jewelry Shop, with display cases? I havn’t seen a Glassee or Glassteel spell. You’d need something to stop “smash ‘n’ grabs”.
Should it be a Magician’s Lair? Things pickled in jars, stuffed creatures hanging from the rafters, colored candles & bubbling cauldons?
A stall in the market place... nah.
Next: What are you selling?
Will you sell fraudlent items like love potions, lucky charms and other hokum, or will you only sell The Real Deal? (I’ll bet there’s quite a few that are completely uncontaminated by magic and only sell to people who will never come into contact with a Detect Magic spell.) I think I’ll skip the Bluff checks here and deal with things made with Craft feats.
What will people buy? - Anything. :)
What can they afford? - Aha! Looking at the Cost of Living article on page 405, the Goods & Services table on 158 & the table of trade goods on 140 we see that it’s ... not very much. Seriously, it’s not until you get to luxury items that you break 1 gp.
The cheapest Magic Item you don’t need at least UMD for is... a one shot Feather Token (Anchor) for 50 gp. I can see that as an emergency supply on a big ship, but common fishermen will probably be spending their coppers on food & fuel.
Even potions are a minimum of 25 gp. That’s equal to one Ox (15 gp) and one Cow (10 gp). So a pesant could afford one if they [i]had[/] to, but a first level cleric casts first level spells for a minimum of one Cow. If you need to wake someone up from a week long coma after being kicked in the head by a mule it’s just the thing, but making Ye Olde Magick Shoppe into a couple casters doing a part time job (their primary occupation being rancher) is two scoops of no fun.
Elixier of Love is 150 gp. Probably a popular item with the more rakeish nobles as a sort of medieval Ruhypnol.
Anything reusable or constant is in the thousands.
Any ideas on how to make this work?
|
A magic shop would likely have guards due to the unusual value of its goods (especially relative to the cost of hired goons). A wizard with a familiar might have their familiar watch the shop while they go in back to get something, since they can communicate telepathically to at least some extent*.
Unless you were in a metropolis (or near enough) you would likely have to have trinkets that didn't have any real effect just to stay in business. In smaller places with lower volume you'd only do special orders.
Maybe the town leadership pools some money for emergency healing potions to help the populace (tax money at work). Heck, you may even arrange to get more lenient taxes in exchange for discounts for the government (likely ends up a wash in the end, but good flavor anyway).
You likely sell certain services cheap, like telling people whether their items are magical or not (maybe lying to the occasional kid who finds a shiny rock) for only 1sp for a single item, or 1gp for a group of items of up to 30 pieces. This would make it possible to find lost artifacts/items on rare occasion, especially if you lie to the owner about their power and pay them a pittance for it. "I'll pay you 10g for this rock." when it's actually a luckstone.
On the same "services" note you could sell prestidigitation services for those who want that mustard stain out of that special piece of clothing (wedding dress?) or antique carpet. Maybe the town mayor pays you to ambush a local pigpen-type character with prestidigitation to clean them a bit (luckily you wouldn't need to touch them).
Selling the adventurer-style items would be a rare event and considered a boon rather than a real source of income in most areas. In the big places the occasional low stuff (stuff below the base value by a lot) could be a decent money maker. +1 swords and +2 armor would make decent money in a metropolis, but much higher than that is pushing it.
*I once had a wizard who ran a magic shop for a while, then gave it to an apprentice to run, but left his familiar in the shop. Since the wizard was level 23, the familiar was not only strong but could cast polymorph on himself once/day (3.5 style, immense power suddenly). No-one robbed that place just out of fear.
|
|
In terms of economics, it doesn't make any sense for your magic items to be all stashed in one place. There is no money circulation and whenever someone needs something magical the money always flows uphill not down.
This being said, the way I've always seen it handled and done so myself is that in a city of any size they will have a certain number of magical items available for sale. This part has rules and RAW behind it from the PFC.
The next step is to distribute these items. Putting more than one or two of them in the same place is a bad idea, lest that person need a professional 24 hour guard, and be run by a 10th level wizard.
The alchemist equipment would be in a specialty shop, with reagents, horticulture equipment, and the like. Very easily you could make it out to be the local flowershop with a savant son who is way too "into" his chemicals. This is a good place to get whatever potions the town has available.
Next would be the weapons shop. The majority of the things they would have would be tools and probably clothing. Think Tractor Supply Company, or Menards (If you live stateside) Hammers, crowbars, nails, grappling hooks, pretty much anything metal you can imagine, lumber even. You ask about the weapons, and he takes you to the back room. He shows you what the ol' man in the back has been working on when he gets a spare minute or two. The guy might have a few "Specialty Pieces" available, if you ask him nicely enough.
Armor will more than likely be handled by a specialist. He likely works closely with whatever blacksmith and might even share a forge. Most of what he has is going to be leather aprons, gloves, and general everyday clothing that Joe-Commoner wears. The real armor would be stored elsewhere due to its expensive nature, it might be a cellar under the place or even in a locked up room or vault. This all depends on the size of the town, and what they have available to them.
Everyone in town knows about the spellcaster. He will be the one running the game in terms of getting things enchanted. Make up whatever you will about the man(or woman) but they are by no means weak nor feeble. If they can enchant your sword with +2 and Keening, then they can turn in into a pile of ash in a heartbeat. Contingency is likely cast on his door in case someone tries stealing something from them and the spell that triggers WONT be a pleasant one. The is where you can find your scrolls, special inks, paper, rarer spell components (Sepia snake sigil, I'm looking at YOU), and you might even be able to rent out one of his spare spellbooks to copy from... you cheater!
The general store will have pretty much everything else you are looking for, rope, backpacks, bedroll, rations, and the like. Ask him if he has anything "exotic" and he might pull out a small chest with a wondrous item in it. You never KNEW you could fit that much into just ONE bag!
Long story short. The problem of "everything under one roof" doesn't or rather, SHOULDN'T exist. Finding these things, doing your research and getting what you want is going to take some time, research, and maybe even a few RP opportunities.
Hope this helps some :D
|
In terms of economics, it doesn't make any sense for your magic items to be all stashed in one place. There is no money circulation and whenever someone needs something magical the money always flows uphill not down.
This being said, the way I've always seen it handled and done so myself is that in a city of any size they will have a certain number of magical items available for sale. This part has rules and RAW behind it from the PFC.
The next step is to distribute these items. Putting more than one or two of them in the same place is a bad idea, lest that person need a professional 24 hour guard, and be run by a 10th level wizard.
The alchemist equipment would be in a specialty shop, with reagents, horticulture equipment, and the like. Very easily you could make it out to be the local flowershop with a savant son who is way too "into" his chemicals. This is a good place to get whatever potions the town has available.
Next would be the weapons shop. The majority of the things they would have would be tools and probably clothing. Think Tractor Supply Company, or Menards (If you live stateside) Hammers, crowbars, nails, grappling hooks, pretty much anything metal you can imagine, lumber even. You ask about the weapons, and he takes you to the back room. He shows you what the ol' man in the back has been working on when he gets a spare minute or two. The guy might have a few "Specialty Pieces" available, if you ask him nicely enough.
Armor will more than likely be handled by a specialist. He likely works closely with whatever blacksmith and might even share a forge. Most of what he has is going to be leather aprons, gloves, and general everyday clothing that Joe-Commoner wears. The real armor would be stored elsewhere due to its expensive nature, it might be a cellar under the place or even in a locked up room or vault. This all depends on the size of the town, and what they have available to them.
Everyone in town knows about the spellcaster. He will be the one running the game in terms of...
+10
seriously...you paint an amazing picture. do you GM? If you don't, you should, and I want to be in ur game. But seriously, that is probably one of the best ways of handling the Ye Ol' Magic Shoppe. Thanks.
A magic shop would likely have guards due to the unusual value of its goods (especially relative to the cost of hired goons). A wizard with a familiar might have their familiar watch the shop while they go in back to get something, since they can communicate telepathically to at least some extent*.
I would build/buy a Golem to guard against intruders if I were to have a magic shop :)
In my game, many of the items available in a city won't be found at any shop, but in the property of citizens.
Maybe a minor noble family is selling a magical sword that is a family heirloom because they have financial problems.
Maybe a rich merchant is a collector of magical items, and he is willing to sell some of them for a good price, to invest the money in another item he absolutely has to have in his collection.
etc.
|
I don't think you'd have a real magic shop, except maybe for the smallest trinkets.
It would attract too much attention : given there is a rogue class, it would make the shop a much too tempting target for not only the local "guild" but also passing adventurers. Might even tempt foreign spies / assassins ...
Then again, the shop would need to have guards and be protected. That does not come cheap, and makes it difficult to make a profit.
The wizard / wizard guild working on commissions seems more likely as more defensible.
|
|
An adventurer walks into town and asks a passing townsperson where they can get magic items. They are directed to a rune-marked little building in a corner of town.
They knock on the door. Quickly someone answers with "What do you want?"
"I'm looking for somewhere to buy magic items," the adventurer sheepishly quotes "I was told I could find them here."
"Oh, is that all? Come on in!" beckons the odd-looking old man. Once inside the adventurer realizes that the outside is a facade in the truest sense; He found himself in the entry-way to a wizard's tower.
"Now, just head over to the front desk and tell the secretary what kind of item you're looking for and she'll direct you to where you need to go." instructs the spoony old man, who gloomily continues "And mind that you don't try anything funny, most of the people in this building could turn you to dust with a thought."
"What the hell did I just get myself into?"
-----
At least, that's how it works in the one major town you can get the potent magic items in for my home games. The master of that wizard's tower is always at least 18th level. For one campaign he was actually a great wyrm gold dragon in disguise (which a player with scent picked up on). If you can't get it at that tower, you're either questing or making it yourself.
|
|
At least, that's how it works in the one major town you can get the potent magic items in for my home games. The master of that wizard's tower is always at least 18th level. For one campaign he was actually a great wyrm gold dragon in disguise (which a player with scent picked up on). If you can't get it at that tower, you're either questing or making it yourself.
Awwwwww! Why not a Brass Dragon?! They are the BEST! They bury you in sand and talk your head off till they bore of you... then they EAT your head off if you're mean to them!
+10seriously...you paint an amazing picture. do you GM? If you don't, you should, and I want to be in ur game. But seriously, that is probably one of the best ways of handling the Ye Ol' Magic Shoppe. Thanks.
Yes I GM our game, we actually trade off the mantle every month or so but right now I am prepping for my turn at the table. My turn usually ends up being pretty heavy on the RP side of things, to the bemoaning of the host powergamer :D
|
|
The cheapest Magic Item you don’t need at least UMD for is... a one shot Feather Token (Anchor) for 50 gp. I can see that as an emergency supply on a big ship, but common fishermen will probably be spending their coppers on food & fuel.
Continuous skill boost items are amongst the cheapest at 100gp x bonus squared (see page 550). Skill +1 = 100GP, Skill +2 = 400GP, etc.
That is within the realms of expensive but affordable by the well off. eg: 100gp Diplomacy+1 item for politicians - perhaps on some badge of office (amulet).
Once per day command word items are: 180GP for a 0 level spell and 360gp for a 1st level spell
eg Once per day 0th level items, 180GP
Detect Poison item for a high level noble perhaps
Mending item for a large noble household.
Once per day utility 1st level spell items, 360GP, eg
Charm item for lovers and politicians
Disguise self to allow a (in)famous person to mingle (briefly)
There are many interesting (anti)social uses for low level spells and skills.
A magic shop would likely have guards due to the unusual value of its goods (especially relative to the cost of hired goons). A wizard with a familiar might have their familiar watch the shop while they go in back to get something, since they can communicate telepathically to at least some extent*.
I would build/buy a Golem to guard against intruders if I were to have a magic shop :)
Golems are expensive. Maybe Iron Cobras? Of course, you could always sell them to rich nobles or merchant lords as unbribeable guards / bodyguards. Now we just need one with See Invisible.
I second DragonBringerX.. that's an awesome picture.
The thing to keep in mind that if there is a shop in town, he's right to paint it as a "General"(-ish) store.. Provided there isn't a consortium going that is working to build and place one in every major city (adventure fodder), provided they can acquire or coerce the competition (if any).. If there was such a consortium, I'd figure it to be spreading out of Absalom. "Center Supply" or some other innocuous name with a "back room" of minor trinkets, and other stuff available upon request (pay before you buy).
Robbing the place would be an interesting proposition, since they're probably either paying regularly to the local thieves, assassins, and mercenary guilds, let alone the guardsmen, and even one or two Adventurers who might want to invest.
Goodness, the whole idea is adventure fodder!
Goodness, the whole idea is adventure fodder!
On the thread I spun this one off of there was a quip about making a series of adventures where the players had the job of knocking over progressively more difficult magic shops, one after the other. It was compared to Oceans 11. At the very least it would be a fantastic exercise in magical security.
(I'll advise you to not go to that thread looking for the argument. It was OT and that thread is now 11 pages long and it wanders muchly.)
I'm thinking that there would be considerable use of the Master Craftsman feat, at least at low levels. This would allow Expert NPCs to make items. (e.g. the stereotypical dwarf armorer, the little old lady who sells potions and herbs to the local village.) It won't be until you hit mid to high levels that you'd get ArchMages coming after you to get their goods back.
(Here's a challenge for a Cleric. Try to get one of the meat-shields or buzzsaw boys to take Master Craftsman & Craft Magic Arms & Armor. Good Luck ;)
This brings to mind the possibility of a sort of "collective outlet" store. Everyone who Crafts could sell through a merchant-god's church, or government designated retailer. That gives you a whole new layer of security, as in, "Ripping off the Patrician's cash cow? I don't need that kind of heat."
In terms of economics, it doesn't make any sense for your magic items to be all stashed in one place. There is no money circulation and whenever someone needs something magical the money always flows uphill not down.
This being said, the way I've always seen it handled and done so myself is that in a city of any size they will have a certain number of magical items available for sale. This part has rules and RAW behind it from the PFC.
The next step is to distribute these items. Putting more than one or two of them in the same place is a bad idea, lest that person need a professional 24 hour guard, and be run by a 10th level wizard.
The alchemist equipment would be in a specialty shop, with reagents, horticulture equipment, and the like. Very easily you could make it out to be the local flowershop with a savant son who is way too "into" his chemicals. This is a good place to get whatever potions the town has available.
Next would be the weapons shop. The majority of the things they would have would be tools and probably clothing. Think Tractor Supply Company, or Menards (If you live stateside) Hammers, crowbars, nails, grappling hooks, pretty much anything metal you can imagine, lumber even. You ask about the weapons, and he takes you to the back room. He shows you what the ol' man in the back has been working on when he gets a spare minute or two. The guy might have a few "Specialty Pieces" available, if you ask him nicely enough.
Armor will more than likely be handled by a specialist. He likely works closely with whatever blacksmith and might even share a forge. Most of what he has is going to be leather aprons, gloves, and general everyday clothing that Joe-Commoner wears. The real armor would be stored elsewhere due to its expensive nature, it might be a cellar under the place or even in a locked up room or vault. This all depends on the size of the town, and what they have available to them.
Everyone in town knows about the spellcaster. He will be the one running the game in terms of...
I love this! ^^
I DM Ravenloft 95% of the time, and thankfully it's a very low-magic setting, as in, there are powerful leaders whose CR's are in the teens, and the best they're packing is a +1 weapon and MW armor. The bulk of any magic items that crop up in the game are being carried around by monsters or found on adventures. I try to keep "magic item shopping" to a minimum at best. The larger towns and cities will have an oddball occult shoppe/bookstore/apothecary, which deals in trinkets and the simplest potions. If the PC"s have a reputation of power or wealth, the store owner may show them their "private selection", or custom make something for an inflated fee. Weapon and Armor shops I handle pretty much the same way; the store wares made available to the public are done so with the public in mind, the "good stuff" is reserved for high-rollers.
On the other hand, in a high-magic setting, I relax the secrecy of powerful items. Typically, the store-owner carrying the items is of some degree of might himself, to have acquired the items in the first place, so only the bravest thieves would try anything; the stores are laid out with all sorts of traps and alarms.
So far, I've had the most success in a high-level Elder-Evils inspired campaign, where the PC's are members of a powerful guild, and the guild has item-crafters and weapon/armorsmiths on staff, so that in between adventures, the players can put in orders for specific gear they want. This sounds too good to be true, but for high-magic, high-wealth, high-level play it just makes life easier on everyone. I still make some things exceptionally rare, perhaps this particular item requires a very rare component, and POOF! New adventure to find said item. Everyone's happy.
With the expense of production, many magic-item shops may create commissioned pieces rather than having valuable, dead-stock lying about.
One of the funnest ways I seen played in an epic-level Eberron game I was in, was that we had an Artificer in the party, and he gather up anything magical we found on adventures that no one else wanted, and buy us out for them at production cost(half list price). Once he gathered quite the collection, he opened up shops in a couple of the major cities and just funneled leftover items into these shops between adventures. He had a vault shored up Stormreach iirc, and he'd stock a certain level of wealth's worth of items in the shops at a time. He had a list of employees working the shops, a list of defenses for each shop, etc. It was a lot of extra bookkeeping, but added a whole new level of immersion for this player as not only an adventurer, but an independently wealthy businessman in-game.
I would like to bring up markup. All items pretty much have a 50% markup when sold by a merchant. I don't have the GMG yet, so I will have to use some of the older math to show its not that bad.
Profession skill for a lvl 1 commoner without skill focus gets ~350 gp/year proffit. This pays for their living expenses. Every skill rank, and therefore level, gives them ~50 more.
Any caster crafting and running one of these shops must be at least lvl 3 for craft wonderous items, and htey are likely wizards so they have a higher int. Therefore they should be making at least 500. Since they should be wealthier members of the society, lets put them at 1000 (extravagent life style, I believe). Keep in mind, this is gross proffit from the buisness.
For a typical high end buisness, a 25% proffit margin is not unreasonable. Each item sells for twice the cost to manufacture. Therefore, about 25% goes to running the buisness and 25% goes to pay for their proffit. Using my numbers, they must sell $4000gp worth of items a year to maintain their living, 1000 goes to them, 2000 goes for materials, and 1000 goes to misc buisness expenses. An adventurer rolls through and buys 1 +2 sword and they are good to go for a year. More likely, though, they are selling items under 300 gp.
Who are they selling low cost items to? Wealthier peasants. Annother well off merchant wants to be able to make savier deals, so he pays 400 for a +2 to sense motive or diplomacy. Now, you may ask how that merchant pays for it, but I just have to ask how you pay for your car. My car cost me about 5 months salary, but I could buy it. This magic item is an investment in the future, and its something that will retain its value, unlike my car. Saving up for a couple years and you will be able to afford it, just like any large purchase. Alternatively, a farmer wants a magical shovel that will cut through the earth easier, doubling the ammount of earth he can move. A handful of these low end magic items will pay for the year, and the buisness model is a lot like modern jewlery stores, only the product has an end use. A jewlery store can sell 1 thing a week and turn a proffit.
In smaller towns, the mage does not need to make as much money for his lifestyle. You could drop it down well below 1000gp/year.
Also the general assumption is that unlike these three Brass Dragons can or do't shapechange.
In PFRPG (and in 3.5), only Bronze, Gold, and Silver Dragons can Change Shape.
The over-reliance on magical equipment was something that irked me back in the Basic/AD&D days. When I switched to other systems, magic equipment was less important and there was not really a need for Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. Characters had one or two magic items and those were either objects of a quest or bought on commission.
|
|
Also the general assumption is that unlike these three Brass Dragons can or do't shapechange.In PFRPG (and in 3.5), only Bronze, Gold, and Silver Dragons can Change Shape.
Alter self is a second level spell. They get 7 uses of it each day. Not to mention a handy magic item or two they may pick up. Also it if is a Great Wyrm Brass Dragon, they have access to one Noble Djinni per day. That is 3 wishes per day for free, far and away the most powerful ability any of the dragons achieve at great wyrm age.
So yeah...
With the addition of the Master Craftsman feat the person making the items may not even be a caster at all.
A 6th level Expert can craft the masterwork weapon needed himself and with Master Craftsman enchant it himself. Same with an armor, weapon or wondrous item that they have enough ranks to enchant with rank = caster level for these purposes thanks to the feat (which also grants a +2 bonus to the skill itself.
I think you would be more likely to find an Expert with Master Craftsman selling magical arms and armor than a Wizard or Sorcerer. Expert (Master Craftsman) could easily be where most minor arms, armor and wondrous items comes from actually.
-Weylin
In general, I dislike YOMS, and even in the larger cities, I don't usually put shops that hold large numbers of magic items in stock just waiting for adventurers to buy them. Rather, I have shops that may keep a few, common items in which there might be regular traffic, and everything else has to be ordered.
One time I did create an NPC who ran an unusual magic item business on the black market. He was a fairly high level caster himself, and did keep a massive number of items in stock. He kept them in an extradimensonal space that only he could access. He never met clients in person. People who wished to buy something would leave a note in a certain tavern indicating what they wanted, and where they would be staying. He monitored that site magically, and would respond back with a note directly to the customers indicating how much the item would cost and where they should leave the payment, choosing different out of the way places that he would magically monitor each time. He would have an agent who had never met him pick up the payment and deposit it with a highly trustworthy dwarven banker who had also never met him, and was paid well to ask no questions and answer none. Once payment was confirmed, he would deliver the item to the player in a highly unusual way, varying the methods each time, sometimes magical, sometimes mundane. As you can tell, more than a little paranoia in his personality. Rarely did anyone attempt to rob him, and they were usually sorry if they did. In reality he was a prominent member of society who didn't wish it known that his family money had run out and that he had to "work" to maintain his lifestyle.
|
I'm stealing that one for my book of good ideas Brian.
I usually run the shop as one outlet of a large network of crafters. There will be a few things available, but exotic or custom things have to be located or created, and can take time. Gives me an out if I'm not ready to allow an item at that point in the campaign.
As a DM my idea was similar to my current DM's. Its all based on the size of the city your in. If you consider Magnimar a major metropolis for example then most anything will be available given enough time and money. It wont all be at one shop but usually you can obtain any standard item within a week or so and unusual stuff can be crafted in a little longer than that. Again it will take some diplomacy and running around town but you can get it done. Alternatively Sandpoint is a little coastal town with little to no magic, sure there are a handful of masterwork items and a few alchemical objects...the church might have a couple potions or scrolls, but there is very little to buy there in terms of magic and really nobody with the money to sell your unused loot to anyway.
You have to hand wave the exact economics of things a little bit when it comes to a specific shop owner, but there has to be some way to fense the enormous amount of treasure that is unusable by the party that a pregen module yields.
Now if you have your heart set on having no ability to buy or sell ever, I would say as DM you should be at least a little fair and try to tailor the found items to the characters in the party, a +2 Bastard Sword sucks as a drop if nobody can use it.
Is the concept of Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe economically viable.
Not sure. But I’ll try to put one together.
First: what should it look like? We’re going to need a physical structure to work with.
Like a Jewelry Shop, with display cases? I havn’t seen a Glassee or Glassteel spell. You’d need something to stop “smash ‘n’ grabs”.
Should it be a Magician’s Lair? Things pickled in jars, stuffed creatures hanging from the rafters, colored candles & bubbling cauldons?
A stall in the market place... nah.
Next: What are you selling?
Will you sell fraudlent items like love potions, lucky charms and other hokum, or will you only sell The Real Deal? (I’ll bet there’s quite a few that are completely uncontaminated by magic and only sell to people who will never come into contact with a Detect Magic spell.) I think I’ll skip the Bluff checks here and deal with things made with Craft feats.
What will people buy? - Anything. :)
What can they afford? - Aha! Looking at the Cost of Living article on page 405, the Goods & Services table on 158 & the table of trade goods on 140 we see that it’s ... not very much. Seriously, it’s not until you get to luxury items that you break 1 gp.
The cheapest Magic Item you don’t need at least UMD for is... a one shot Feather Token (Anchor) for 50 gp. I can see that as an emergency supply on a big ship, but common fishermen will probably be spending their coppers on food & fuel.
Even potions are a minimum of 25 gp. That’s equal to one Ox (15 gp) and one Cow (10 gp). So a pesant could afford one if they had[/] to, but a first level cleric casts first level spells for a minimum of one Cow. If you need to wake someone up from a week long coma after being kicked in the head by a mule it’s just the thing, but making Ye Olde Magick Shoppe into a couple casters doing a part time job (their primary occupation being rancher) is two scoops of no fun.
Elixier of Love is 150 gp. Probably a popular item with the more rakeish nobles as...
This is how I see it. I am a big dragonlance fan so my view of fantacy books is based on that. In the small village of Solace Raistlin had a hard time finding anything magical outside of the school where he studied. He learned to find and prepare all of the components he would need. In Palanthas he was able to shop in a mage-ware store that had several magic items of all sorts and wizards came there frequently to trade. There is no issue in a fantacy world of having a magical shop in which to purchase items.
If there are jewelers or a high-end art market, then there's magic shops. The only relevant question is whether there's a luxury item market. If there's enough surplus exploited from labor to warrant demand for luxuries, then there's going to be a place to buy magic items. And if there are jewelers, then the security problems facing magic shop owners have been successfully solved.
If there are jewelers or a high-end art market, then there's magic shops. The only relevant question is whether there's a luxury item market. If there's enough surplus exploited from labor to warrant demand for luxuries, then there's going to be a place to buy magic items. And if there are jewelers, then the security problems facing magic shop owners have been successfully solved.
Just a matter of degree. Magic items (or at least most of them) are worth more than your typical jewelry would be. And the jewelry pieces that are as valuable as magic items would almost certainly never be on display, and probably would only rarely be available on the open market at all. Also, the types of thieves that magic items might attract (adventurers) is probably a cut above, the ones who would be targeting jewelry stores.
There was an article way back in Polyhedron 63, which Paizo happens to sell, about just such a shop, by the name of Chemcheaux.
|
|
Just a matter of degree.
I think the point was that if a jewelry shop can secure its wares in a magical world, so can a magic shop, because they are defending against the same scrying/teleporting /invisible thieves. That there are people able to overcome those defenses does not mean you can have one and not the other. No magic shop means the theives clean out the jewelry shop. And if they can't do that, there is no reason the same defenses can't allow a magic shop to protect itself.
I think the point was that if a jewelry shop can secure its wares in a magical world, so can a magic shop, because they are defending against the same scrying/teleporting /invisible thieves. That there are people able to overcome those defenses does not mean you can have one and not the other. No magic shop means the theives clean out the jewelry shop. And if they can't do that, there is no reason the same defenses can't allow a magic shop to protect itself.
Just a matter of degree.
That's kind of what I meant by saying just a matter of degree. bth can be defended. I think a magic shop would be a much juicier target for a higher class of thieves than a jewelry store, that's all. Most higher level characters and more powerful critters aren't that motivated by more bling or cash, which they probably already ahev more than enough of, if they want it. On the other hand, they might be highly motivated by a store with a +4 headband of intellect in the window, for example.
|
|
Very true, but when gold can be converted until Real Ultimate Power with some time, and diamonds are viewed as 1ups, anyone that doesn't get the best possible defense they can spring for, there will be someone for who the reward is worth the effort. Hence why I prefer making it impossible to use gold for all but the most mundane magic items. The good stuff requires equivalent exchange in items, favors, or stabs in the face.
There are some paragraphs about magic item shops in the GMG, pages 106-107.
In previous games the only items that were commonly stocked in any of my groups campaigns were limited uses items like wands, potions and scrolls. You might find a magical weapon/armor/wondrous item that was on the minor category. anythign higher was strictly commission for the most part.
More often the shops stocks 'display only' pieces that told the customer what they could get, not what was actually there.
Most of the magic shops made their bread and butter on alchemical items, spell components, blank books, blank scrolls and other magical supplies more than actual magical items. And often where the items they did have were stored was in vaults at the local church of [Name of god of Commerce for the world].
-Weylin
Very true, but when gold can be converted until Real Ultimate Power with some time, and diamonds are viewed as 1ups, anyone that doesn't get the best possible defense they can spring for, there will be someone for who the reward is worth the effort. Hence why I prefer making it impossible to use gold for all but the most mundane magic items. The good stuff requires equivalent exchange in items, favors, or stabs in the face.Exactly.
I'm on record as having said that the magic item shop is among the top ten dumbest ideas in the game. I think all the major reasons have already been presented by other people in this thread.
And this is a -good- thing, in my opinion. I hate it when magic items become just a financial exchange away. Magic items should be rare and noteworthy.
I can see a low-magic game like that being fun. However when you are running an adventure path playing a druid and enemies only drop metal armor or you're playing a monk and enemies only drop swords, you need to be able to trade those worthless items for something better. If the GM is willing to change that +1 chain shirt in the AP into a +1 hide armor then you and that +2 longsword in the AP into an Amulet of Mighty fists +1 then you are good to go. Or you could.. Sell items and buy what you want, which is how this game is designed.
I can see a low-magic game like that being fun. However when you are running an adventure path playing a druid and enemies only drop metal armor or you're playing a monk and enemies only drop swords, you need to be able to trade those worthless items for something better. If the GM is willing to change that +1 chain shirt in the AP into a +1 hide armor then you and that +2 longsword in the AP into an Amulet of Mighty fists +1 then you are good to go. Or you could.. Sell items and buy what you want, which is how this game is designed.
I haven't run a module in well over 15 years. In fact, I don't remember when the last time was that I ran a module - only that it was a very long time ago.
However, "sell items and buy what you want" isn't the same as having a magic shop. One rule we used a long time ago was that we could sell and buy magic items, but it required researching and finding a buyer/seller (which typically a sage NPC doing research for us).
See now in a home game I can totally understand that. If the players are in over their heads you drop them a bone. In an AP the monsters are going to scale up and if your party isn't Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, or your fighter uses a dwarven urgosh instead of a longsword and all the enemies wield longswords, it isn't too long before that masterwork dwarven urgosh is useless against enemies with DR. Running an AP I would simply enforce the rules on which cities would have which items based on their prosperity.
Now if a character wants a unique magic item and they're not on a timeline to save the world from dimensional pockets, side quests to find magic items could be a very fun adventure.
Magic items should be rare and noteworthy.
I just thought of my Bard buying a Mithril Shirt, Mithril Buckler and a pair of Mithril Spiked Gauntlets. In "a certain epic fantasy novel series" there was only one character that had mithril armor, and it was sized for a small character at that. Lo! how many generations of dwarven miners gave their lives so that I could go on adventures at Light Encumbrance?
Maybe I should have gone with the Mystic Theurge Crafter build and rolled my own.
Which brings up the idea of wandering into a Magic Shop and plunking down 370 gp to buy the mats to make a wand. If you really want to make magic items more precious you might, as was suggested above, require a "critical ingredient" that the adventurers would have to go out and get themselves.
I vaguely recall there being scenes cut from "The Princess Bride" where Fezik and Inigo were sent out to get the ingredients to make the "miracle pill." Fezik also got his Holocaust Cloak from that side quest. :)
There are various ways to make magic shops work. Some of them have already been outlined.
In my worlds, the most legitimate magic items dealers are more brokers. Think of them like the owners of high end antique shops. They have a few items in stock which they own personally, a few more that are on consignment, but a much longer list of what was sold to who, what item was commissioned from which wizard and so forth. If you need something and you need it now, a broker will be able to find it for you.
Another tier are the frauds, charlatans and swindlers. PCs are generally wild to go find magic items for sale in shops with the shopkeepers too foolish to realize what treasures they have for sale. Toss a Magic Aura on that dusty old vase you've been unable to move for months and someone will come by and snap it right up. Of course, PCs will get wise to this so it's in the interest of the merchants to occasionally salt their wares with actual treasures.
Let's say you've got a bazaar. The merchants have enough skill to glamour some items so they appear magical and enough to also glamour one magical item to appear nonmagical. Why would you do this? Because the guy who buys what he thinks is a prayer rug but turns out to be an actual flying carpet is going to be telling his tale of the wonder he found at the bazaar for years and you can't hire bards for that kind of PR, and the overall sales of people who come to your bazaar hoping to find lost treasures will come to quite a bit more than the price of just one flying carpet.
There's also a matter of fencing stuff. Let's say you kill a wizard, take his spellbooks, rob his tower and all the rest. Sounds like a typical day of adventuring, right? Wrong. That wizard has friends, including necromancers who may have set up a clone of him in their tanks, and he's stamped everything he owns with his own arcane mark, making it easy for him to scry out and track down. Therefore, it's hot hot property and stuff you will want to get off your hands ASAP even if you're taking far less than it's worth. This is a lot of the stuff that may end up getting laundered through the bazaar, including occasionally even bits of legitimate treasures that get actually misplaced. I mean, the merchant's wife buys a rich cloak from a shady character and leaves it on the counter as "magic to be identified" while she goes out for lunch. The merchant then comes in and mistakenly thinks that the cloak is one that his clever wife has glamoured so it will appear magical and sells it for an exorbitant amount to some random adventurers. The wife and her husband later realize they're mistake, but also realize they bought and sold the cloak at a handsome profit, so what do they care if they ever properly identified it?
Fairs and festivals can work the same way. A single magic ring can be a loss leader to drive the business in.
Then there are the gold dragons amusing themselves and the philanthropic ancient wizards, but those aren't profit oriented businesses so needn't be worried about so much.
Which is how I consider magic items. A magic shop may have a used item lying around, but more than likely you will have to commission an item if you want more than just "luck of the draw".
Therefore, I would suggest a shop has a chance of having an item randomly, but mostly exists for people to commission items to be made.
I see crafters in general like this. They may have standard items for sale. But anything that is masterwork will probably be commission work. You might get lucky and someone never showed up to pick up their comissioned weapon or armor, but the smith doesnt stock more than a couple of pieces maybe.
The same goes for magical items to me with slchemical items, potions, low-level (1st to 3rd) scrolls and possibly wands being the 'standard' items.
If you want a bit more realism, just about any government is going to regulate the sale and resale of magical items, especially combat related ones. So it may be harder to find magical arms and armor or might require special licensing to sell or own them. Same as a commoner might need to have a good explanation for owning a long sword or plate armor.
This was part of why i liked the concept in Forgotten Realms of the Adventurer's or Mercenary Charter. It was basically a license as a security contractor.
-Weylin
Fairs and festivals can work the same way. A single magic ring can be a loss leader to drive the business in.I'm chuckling at the notion of one of our real world RenFairs selling an item which costs the equivalent of millions of dollars (if not billions) out of a tent as a "loss leader".
Don't think of it as the RenFaire. Think of it as the period equivalent of WalMart and compare it to a raffle. You have one ring worth 25K and you sell 50K of fair rings over the season. Did you make a profit? And even if you didn't, did you make up for it in the price of admission, concessions, sales of other wares?
This was part of why i liked the concept in Forgotten Realms of the Adventurer's or Mercenary Charter. It was basically a license as a security contractor.
-Weylin
Now I'm reminded of a supplement I read.
A merchant convinced the ruler of a city that magic items were too dangerous to allow amateurs to buy and sell them, so it was made illegal to buy or sell magic item with a cost of greater than 1,000 gp, unless it was with him. This effectively gave him the monopoly on permanent magic item trading. Anyone could make magic items, but they could only sell or buy from him. He was backed up in this not only by the ruler who sold him the monopoly, but also by the city's other guilds who had monopolies of their own to protect, and by the thieves guild who didn't want supernatural ways of warding off their depredations to be readily available to the public.
The merchant himself dealt only in high-price items, such as silks & spices, so magic items were more of a sideline, but a very profitable one.
Is the concept of Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe economically viable.
Depends on the setting assumptions. But you'll do good by using not a jewelry shop, but a military concern selling weapons to other countries, as a base model for a magic shop that actually deals in serious stuff and does it as its main businness. Half of the serious items (not counting potions and low-level wands) it sells are comissioned and do not even exists until the client makes the payment. The rest (those it got in exchange) are probably not stored anywhere near the standard locations of their local representatives who actually broker the deals. Its vaults are either on the territory of a supremely powerful authority (that doesn't yet control the entire world because it is about as interested in that, as modern-day USA in subjugating Equatorial Africa), or are the citadel of those bad-ass spellcasters who actually make their stuff. Its main clients are the richest of the rich, powerful adventurers and kings (if there are any practical difference between them) although it might sell minor items to "mere" elite to make a steady profit during the significant periods of time where there aren't anyone who can actually afford a new sword +5.
|
|
I always figured that the only real source(s) of powerful magic items would be either (a) hidden caches, (b) deities, (c) independent crafters so powerful no one tries to mess with them, or (d) groups of crafters banded together as their own mini-nation, that as a whole are too powerful to mess with.
Quests often go after (a),; (b) only occurs in really high-end campaigns or because of DM fiat; (c) are hard to convince because they are of their own mind and designs on everything; (d) has the best chance of being a steady source of items, but has the drawback of pissing off even MORE people if you skip/skimp on payment.