I don't want Cale to monopolize any sort of position from the beginning. Depending on his progression, I could see him as a General or something along that militant line just as easily.
I also hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way with the way Cale is. I'm trying to make him independent while still keeping him as a team player, and it's a challenge so far. Don't be afraid to hash out anything with me if I step over the line.
I love everyone's characters, too. I hope this game goes all the way to the end. It'll probably take a decade, given how slow Pbps progress, but it'll be worth it.
Does anyone have an idea on how we should begin our exploration?
Does anyone have a preference as far as loot disbursement? I've always kept it on the easy side of things, where whoever wants something that they can use could just grab it, then the remainder is sold and the money's split up. I wouldn't be against a 'group fund', though, if anyone has a good plan for one.
Unless Cale addresses someone as 'You, peasant!' or starts getting all wandering-hands with Arianna, you're doing fine. :)
With Oleg's trading post as our temporary base, I would think that anything we don't really, really want could be converted into trade credit. It would allow us a floating pool of wealth to purchase whatever we may need and we can combine our resources for larger purchases (i.e. materials for building a kingdom!).
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We seem a much better balanced party than before and watching some of you mature and change makes the game all the more worthwhile, especially Cale.
I tend to play clerics alot and playing such a narrow minded dwarf cleric makes a refreshing change. But I doubt I'll be looking for opportunities for him to evolve, in fact more like the opposite, trying to keep him as Lawful Grumpy for as long as possible. There is a fine line between Grumpy but Good and just Good or Grumpy, its one I've never really shot for before.
Cheers
P.S. I can see Silstaren and Zennor not agreeing on many things, like roads and cities. Reminds me of original Greyhawk elves and dwarves.
Well, as a Taldane Marcus is a staunch monarchist, and although he pretty much ranks Cale in background (as he sees it) he really isn't fussed - he's a socially inept younger son, and is used to playing second fiddle. As such he's actually a rather good team player, once people get used to his habit of taking ketchup with his size 9's. He's also remarkably clever, and could fulfil any of a number of roles in a government.
If Cale doesn't end up as 'King' (although I can't see that not happening) Marcus would probably make quite a good ruler, at least from a technical point of view, but he hasn't the talent to be a leader.
One thought, though, springs to mind: As we are going to be establishing a stronghold, trying to attract followers and effectively adventuring at the same time, would it be advisable for us all to take the leadership feat at the earliest level? Not for our cohorts to adventure with us, but for them to maintain our base of operations and provide loyal supporting services?
For later leadership roles, this is how it looked so far going strictly off of ability scores, starting with strongest in a particular ability score. The personality of our PCs may significantly alter these listings.
Here's my take on who I think makes for most natural role-taker for some of these things, but feel free to offer other suggestions:
Ruler: Cale (definitely), Arianna (maybe as a co-ruler as queen)
Councilor: Virgil, Zennor, and Arianna (each of us will likely have advice and counsel to offer the king, but in terms of presiding over any sort of town council or congress of the people, I think Virgil may be best-suited for that. Arianna as backup (since I do plan on making sure she's a Charismatic rogue with decent Intelligence and Wisdom)?
General: Cale (initially as he grows into his role as monarch), Silstaren or a cohort (down the road once the kingdom becomes too large for Cale to effectively manage a far-flung army)
Grand Diplomat: Virgil (having a bard with the ability to win over people to your way of thinking is vital here)
High Priest: Zennor (obvious no-brainer)
Magister: Marcus (obvious no-brainer)
Marshal: Zennor (as a defense-minded priest of Torag, I think he'd make an excellent law enforcer) or Silstaren (but maybe more as a protector of the wilderness than the communities themselves)
Royal Assassin: Arianna (and the organization I'd have her found) or Silstaren (depending on the circumstances)
Spymaster: Arianna (definitely a role I'd relish as a behind-the-scenes thing from her business concerns)
Treasurer: Zennor (I think we can rely on a dwarf's legendary money-managing skills in this role) or Arianna (as an extension of her focus on building up the kingdom's economic power) or both
Warden: Silstaren (the elf makes perfect story-sense for this role)
I don't want Cale to monopolize any sort of position from the beginning. Depending on his progression, I could see him as a General or something along that militant line just as easily.
Because of his background and the rivalry you've set up with his brothers back in Brevoy, I WANT Cale to be the ruler of the kingdom we'll be building. It's the greatest part of his untold story that I want to see play out over the course of the game. Maybe he takes on dual roles, i.e. both the King and the General? Or maybe he appoints someone like Silstaren as Warden and sometimes-General? Or maybe he takes the Leadership feat and brings in a cohort fighter who can serve as the de-facto leader in his absence while adventuring, and the nation's general answering only to the King?
I also hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way with the way Cale is. I'm trying to make him independent while still keeping him as a team player, and it's a challenge so far. Don't be afraid to hash out anything with me if I step over the line.
I don't mind Cale's behavior so far. You've kept most of his abrasive thoughts as internal monologue rather than dumping that kind of attitude on the rest of us. And I think that's better from a story standpoint. Because, if he shows a full-blown arrogance to everyone all the time, that'll really start to grate on someone like Arianna who's trying to exercise her independence and freedom from her father to start a new life for herself. She would be very averse to trading in her tyrannical, arrogant father for a tyrannical, arrogant Cale. So, I'll probably look for ways to soften Cale in-character as I roleplay Arianna's actions and reactions toward him.
Same goes for Zennor's grumpiness, too. I foresee lots of potential for Arianna and Zennor to become huge allies and supporters of one another. He's a builder, craftsman, and engineer. He wants to build roads, structures, and defenses. Arianna, meanwhile, is an economist, trader, and merchant. She'd be a great outlet for selling Zennor's crafts to make more money (and Build Points) for the kingdom. She'll be dependent on his ability to build roads to foster trade and increase business. And she'll want to take advantage of his skill at building proper defenses to house and protect the caravans, businesses, and settlers who come to the Stolen Lands. So, I'll be playing her as a foil to Zennor's grumpiness. In fact, it would be kind of fun if it played out that Arianna became one of the only people who could legitimately improve the dwarf's attitude, whereas everyone else always sees his grumpy side. :-)
Does anyone have an idea on how we should begin our exploration?
I think we take it one hex at a time. And, as we learn something unique and interesting (or dangerous?) about a hex, we make our plans on how to react to it...always with an eye towards incorporating it into our kingdom...whereupon, we'll have to decide what kind of development we want to exercise with our Build Points.
Does anyone have a preference as far as loot disbursement? I've always kept it on the easy side of things, where whoever wants something that they can use could just grab it, then the remainder is sold and the money's split up. I wouldn't be against a 'group fund', though, if anyone has a good plan for one.
Group fund will be very necessary. But I also like your idea that if we discover something obviously useful to one of us, then we make sure that character benefits from having it. We should be able to play that by ear as we need to though.
Unless Cale addresses someone as 'You, peasant!' or starts getting all wandering-hands with Arianna, you're doing fine. :)
Oh, yes. Cale will have to watch his tongue a bit going forward. But, in the early going, it'll be interesting if these characters start off a little distrustful and less friendly toward each other, only to become the staunchest and most devoted allies along the way.
With Oleg's trading post as our temporary base, I would think that anything we don't really, really want could be converted into trade credit. It would allow us a floating pool of wealth to purchase whatever we may need and we can combine our resources for larger purchases (i.e. materials for building a kingdom!).
Agreed.
We seem a much better balanced party than before and watching some of you mature and change makes the game all the more worthwhile, especially Cale.
I completely agree. I think Cale is one of the most interesting characters to watch develop over the course of the game. He's quite rough around the edges (socially-speaking) right now. And that's why I look forward to him changing down the line and becoming more responsible, mature, and heroic...genuinely concerned about his people rather than viewing them negatively all the time as "lesser" born.
I tend to play clerics alot and playing such a narrow minded dwarf cleric makes a refreshing change. But I doubt I'll be looking for opportunities for him to evolve, in fact more like the opposite, trying to keep him as Lawful Grumpy for as long as possible.
In many ways, I think that's a great character hook for Zennor. The irascible, always-grumpy, but dependable-as-ever dwarven priest with his penchant for building and defending what he's built is dead-on useful for this game.
P.S. I can see Silstaren and Zennor not agreeing on many things, like roads and cities. Reminds me of original Greyhawk elves and dwarves.
This, too, will make for an interesting dynamic as the game goes on. Zennor (and Arianna) are going to be in favor of "remaking" the Stolen Lands into a civilized, functioning nation with roads, communities, and strongholds capable of defending and supporting trade and travel. Silstaren, on the other hand, with his affinity and appreciation for untouched nature and what-not will have a constant tug-of-war with the others over how much development we understake and how much of the Stolen Lands we try to preserve. I think Silstaren also makes for a natural Warden...and maybe even General, answering to Cale as the nation's monarch.
I can envision a scene where Silstaren (as one of Cale's longest and most trustworthy friends) is trying to convince the King to leave a certain area of the Stolen Lands untouched and undeveloped. Meanwhile, Zennor and Arianna will be presenting a united front on why it's important to develop or settle that specific area because of what it will mean to the economy and defense of the nation. These types of situations should be REALLY fun to roleplay, because there will also be an undercurrent of challenges to our individual friendships and relationships with one another. And Cale can be the conflicted decision-maker who's never going to please everyone all the time. And that should lead to him growing up that much faster into the hero that the overarching plot of Kingmaker needs.
As we are going to be establishing a stronghold, trying to attract followers and effectively adventuring at the same time, would it be advisable for us all to take the leadership feat at the earliest level? Not for our cohorts to adventure with us, but for them to maintain our base of operations and provide loyal supporting services?
I planned to take Leadership for Arianna somewhere down the line, not because I expect her to be the ruler of the kingdom. Rather, I expect her to play more of a "power behind the throne" kind of role as the economic advisor (Treasurer?) and clandestine activities manager (Spymistress/Spymaster?). My ideal cohort would be someone who can fulfill the running of several businesses (both legitimate and illicit, if necessary) and keep tabs on those trying to worm their way into the kingdom (either as outside spies or thieves' guilds that try to take root).
If I could envision Arianna's ideal role and progression thereof, I'd like to see her become a merchant/trader initially in the kingdom, graduate to managing multiple businesses via acquisitions and propping up of other merchants who arrive and join the kingdom, and then have some kind of outside criminal influence (her father's organization from Brevoy, perhaps?) show up and start trying to control things behind-the-scenes. That latter element would serve as a catalyst for Arianna to oppose her father, casting out his thieves and cut-throats as she came to the realization the kingdom would need some kind of anti-crime watchdog organization or, at the very least, a benevolent sort of thieves' guild that could serve double-duty as a spy organization and foil to hardcore criminals trying to negatively impact what we've built.
Then, WAY down the road, if Cale is the ruler and Arianna develops some kind of romantic interest with him, I could see her becoming Queen alongside his role as King. But, even then, I think there would always be an element of subterfuge to Arianna. Any thieves' guild or spy organization she started would eventually be transformed into her own royal guard and supporters. Maybe something like a rogue-inclined Musketeers-type of organization that operates openly and behind-the-scenes for the betterment of the nation, but owing their primary allegiance to her moreso than just the King.
Anyway, that's where some of my long-range thinking has ventured so far with Arianna's future growth and development. But none of that is set in stone by any means. Still, it's good talk that stuff through here so we all sort of know where we're headed and can help one another out when certain roleplaying opportunities arise in-game.
My two-cents,
--Neil
The more we discuss it, the more excited I get. Let's start exploring!!
I will get an updated map up this evening. I also had a few thoughts about what Neil wrote, and I will include those as well. Enjoy your weekend, everyone!
Ruler: Cale (definitely), Arianna (maybe as a co-ruler as queen)
Councilor: Virgil, Zennor, and Arianna (each of us will likely have advice and counsel to offer the king, but in terms of presiding over any sort of town council or congress of the people, I think Virgil may be best-suited for that. Arianna as backup (since I do plan on making sure she's a Charismatic rogue with decent Intelligence and Wisdom)?
General: Cale (initially as he grows into his role as monarch), Silstaren or a cohort (down the road once the kingdom becomes too large for Cale to effectively manage a far-flung army)
Grand Diplomat: Virgil (having a bard with the ability to win over people to your way of thinking is vital here)
High Priest: Zennor (obvious no-brainer)
Magister: Marcus (obvious no-brainer)
Marshal: Zennor (as a defense-minded priest of Torag, I think he'd make an excellent law enforcer) or Silstaren (but maybe more as a protector of the wilderness than the communities themselves)
Royal Assassin: Arianna (and the organization I'd have her found) or Silstaren (depending on the circumstances)
Spymaster: Arianna (definitely a role I'd relish as a behind-the-scenes thing from her business concerns)
Treasurer: Zennor (I think we can rely on a dwarf's legendary money-managing skills in this role) or Arianna (as an extension of her focus on building up the kingdom's economic power) or both
Warden: Silstaren (the elf makes perfect story-sense for this role)
Some interesting ideas!
One thing I will work on are Marcus' skills at Engineering and Architecture - while he isn't a builder (yet), he can be a genius at designing things. He'll probably have to get his hands dirty as well at some point ... and I have a few ideas as to that, too.
I may also focus his feats along the lines of crafting in order to make sure we are furnished with what we need.
I would summerise things as:
Cale - ruler, general.
Arianna - spy-master, economist.
Zenner - high priest, treasurer, builder.
Virgil - diplomat, envoy.
Silstaren - warden, marshal.
Marcus - magister, architect.
But I do agree, we have a very well balanced party for the adventure we are on, so far as I can see.
A question: How do you handle hit points? Roll randomly, or a static number based on HD?
Such big plans, and we may not live to see tomorrow.
I am looking forward to how things shake out. I think I can safely take Silstaren out of the running for assasin. Warden might make a good fit. He may stay out of any office, he certainly wouldn't take one now if offered. He's still thinking that now that Papa Surtova is avenged, he'll do some local sight seeing and be off. Of course you've got to see a place in all seasons to really see it, and then winter isn't the best time to travel..... If ever I should Leave you. It wouldn't be in springtime....
People change. That's what will make the game fun.
I have another question ... well, a request, actually.
...knowing how in springtime I'm bewitched by you so.
1. Here is a MAP of our journeys thus far. The bandit camp that Cale and Silstaren raided is to the SW, while the spider monsters that ambushed Virgil, Arianna, and Zennor are to the SE.
2. I like the ideas put out concerning future leadership positions. It got me thinking about the Leadership feat. Rather than...
...we can have cohorts and followers fill those governmental positions. When Virgil hits level 7, assuming he has at least a +2 Charisma item, he could have 1 cohort and 6 followers. If both he and Arianna take the feat, then we could have two cohorts and many followers filling other positions. This is handy because it is ability scores that matter, not level, when determining bonuses.
3. I like your thinking ahead to forming organizations within the kingdom. Arianna could form our FBI/NSA, while Virgil organizes the CIA/State Dept. :)
I have another question ... well, a request, actually
Go ahead since we actually havent played anything where it could come into play
A question: How do you handle hit points? Roll randomly, or a static number based on HD?
I was thinking of just doing the average +1 (i.e. d6=4, d8=5, d10=6, d12=7).
But I'll leave it up to the majority.
Thanks! I'm cool with that method, BTW.
I prefer to roll myself, but it's not that important. Average is fine.
Average is fine. I'm ready to go hunt some spiders! :)
Another question (sorry, I know I ask a lot) but are we assumed to have horses? Only I certainly didn't account for one, although I could rearrange my inventory to have one if they are a requirement ...
I assume everyone has a horse or that there were enough from the bandits to go around. I know this kind of hoses the pioneer trait, so if anyone took this trait feel free to give yourself extra gear to compensate for the horse.
For marching order, I would suggest either Arianna go first to scout, or have Cale go first to take whatever comes. Sil could be a good candidate to take rearguard. He has a pretty good perception and has more armor than the squishies.
For marching order, I would suggest either Arianna go first to scout, or have Cale go first to take whatever comes. Sil could be a good candidate to take rearguard. He has a pretty good perception and has more armor than the squishies.
Sounds reasonable - Marcus will fit in wherever you place him in the middle, he knows that he is no warrior.
Sil is amenable to any order. I'll just point out that well-armoured dwarven clerics make fine anchors -- I mean rear guards.
Vanulf, I played in a PbP that died when the DM just disappeared. It was a super-talkative roleplay heavy group. I have always suspected that he got bored of waiting for us. Is this group moving fast enough to engage you?
That's funny... a game that died because the players played too much... lol.
No, the pace is fine. I appreciate the crosstalk as it gives me a chance to see what makes your characters tick. I'm actually trying to restrain myself from posting too much to give you guys time to interact.
I'm generally planning on posting once in the late evening after my daughter goes to bed and then waiting 24 hours or so to give everyone a chance to reply. Then if needed I'll post again during the day to keep the action moving.
Thanks for the map. Tanner. Wasn't quite what I had in my head, but it works. Great job.
I just had to port the character art into tokens, really. Everything else I already had as saved media. MapTool from rptools.net. I don't think we need a round-by-round update on the map, since we're basically just fighting out in the open. I'm happy to make more in the future. :)
Very cool. Dabbler does the honors in my PbP games.
I stand in awe of both of you.
I'm off to my Aunt and Uncle in-law's (I guess thats the right terminology) 60th wedding anniversary. I will post some more later when I get back.
Just a quick question, how do you want to handle experience? I usually wait until the group reaches a "safe haven" and then award all the xp gained up until that point. Or i can give it out as it's earned after each encounter.
I'm easy, in many of the games I'm in we just get levelled up at appropriate points, in others we do XP religiously.
That depends...
Does everyone get the same xp, regardless of individual actions? Then don't even bother to give them out. Just let us know when we have leveled.
Does everyone get roughly the same, but slightly more or less depending on individual actions? Then we need it in regular intervals so we can track it effectively. (That, and you figure out pretty quickly that you have fewer xp when someone levels up before you do.)
Just my two copper pieces.
Whatever you'd prefer as DM. I'm okay with bookkeeping or benchmark leveling.
DM's call. I'll whine no matter what you do. :(
Speaking of DM's call.
I was going to go arcane archer with Silstaren someday. I like him as a shortbow guy -- handier for use mounted and creeping through dense underbrush, etc. But longbows can come in handy and someday maybe he'll shift permanently to a longbow. How portable between bow types would something like weapon focus be?
I'll keep track of XP and let everyone know when to level up. That way everyone is on an even footing.
Weapon Focus would be specific to each weapon i.e. Weapon Focus: Short bow and Weapon Focus: Longbow would require different feats
Composite longbows can be used from horseback and in semi-confined spaces.
Composite longbows can be used from horseback and in semi-confined spaces.
Sweet! Problem solved. I've always played any longbow is too long for mounted or tight space combat. So why does anyone bother with composite shortbows?
Subject to Vanulf's confirmation regarding composite longbows of course, Silstaren will drop the shortbow in favor of the composite longbow stashed at Oleg's.
A composite bow will work with the appropriate Weapon Focus feat (Composite Short bow with WF: Short bow / Composite Longbow with WF: Longbow)
Composite longbows can be used from horseback and in semi-confined spaces.Sweet! Problem solved. I've always played any longbow is too long for mounted or tight space combat. So why does anyone bother with composite shortbows?
For when you can't use composite longbows, I guess. Composite longbows are made largely of horn and sinew, as these can stand more extreme compressive and elastic forces than wood can, and hence can be made smaller with the same draw strength, which in turn means you can use them from horseback.
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Composite longbows can be used from horseback and in semi-confined spaces.Sweet! Problem solved. I've always played any longbow is too long for mounted or tight space combat. So why does anyone bother with composite shortbows?
Subject to Vanulf's confirmation regarding composite longbows of course, Silstaren will drop the shortbow in favor of the composite longbow stashed at Oleg's.
Rogues? Aragorn?
I am back from Paizoconuk but our holiday seemms to be a bottomless pit for my time. I'll try to post in game later.
Cheers
Dm, I think the group was hoping to get on with the adventure rather than have to take another RP break and interact with Oleg again.
I'll be out of hand until at least Monday. Feel free to npc me.
Our best wishes with you, DM! My dad had a stroke a few years back, I understand what you guys must be going through.
Jury duty tomorrow. I doubt the Commonwealth will provide internet.
FYI...I'll be winging my way to GenCon in about 15 minutes or so. While I'm there, I'll have my laptop with me. But, I'm working the Paizo booth 6 hours each day. And, in my spare time, I'm going to be working on my Serpent's Skull manuscript and talking Carrion Crown with James and Wes. So I may be out of pocket for a few days. NPC my character, if necessary.
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This is difficult because we worked so hard to get this Kingmaker off the ground but I have to cut down on the number of games I am in in time for looking after two kids when my wife returns to work in three weeks time. Plus the Viking game I run is about to get very busy when the party hit port.
Its not that this game is bad, its just that the PC I play in my three other games, and the interaction is much better. I am sure you will get a suitable replacement the way that games are being filled at present. Also you should know that I dropped out of Heathy's game too so it is no reflection on your GM skills, Wulfson, at all. I hope your real life issues end well and good luck in the future chaps.
So Zennor will stay with the group until they reach Oleg's again. Or if you decide you wish to do this another way, let me know.
Cheers
Sad to see you go, FW, but I understand totally about your commitments!
FW, sorry to see you go. I was really looking forward to obliquely building Silstaren's relationship with Zennor. I do however, understand and support your decision to prioritize your family.