If a character receives an inherent bonus to an ability score (be it from Wish or a Tome/Manual) can something remove that inherent bonus? For example could a Mage's Disjunction remove it?
Basically, how permanent is an inherent bonus? Admittedly, having a 9th level spell undo the effects of something that costs 137,500 GP is a little retarded.
I realize that Mage's Disjunction states that "spells and spell-like effects are unraveled and destroyed completely (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does)". But it doesn't contain the usual text of "acts as Dispel Magic except as stated below" text.
Wish states "Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies."
So am I correct in assuming that these two statements work hand in hand to prevent anyone or anything from removing your inherent bonus?
Have I over-looked any mortal method to remove this bonus?
I do not believe so.
I inherent bonuses are instant effects that permanently change the character. Once the change is complete, there is no magic aura left to dispel.
I agree that once you have them they are there forever short of a wish or god like action. But these are things that can lower an ability even if it was never give an inherent bonus.
The only reason you have to list it as a bonus type is so you know what the costs and limitations are to stack it up to the +5 cap. If there was no cap or increased cost in place you would just change the base raw number forever and call it good.
Dispel magic cannot affect spells with instantaneous durations. Inherent bonuses are the results of spells with instantaneous durations, ergo, dispel magic is useless against them. Good thing, too, or else the PCs would kill their GM in 9/10 games when the GM dispelled their ability scores....
Thanks to everyone for beating the dead horse that was my Mage's Disjunction and Dispel Magic example. However, can anyone tackle this part of my question?
Have I over-looked any mortal method to remove this bonus?
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No... Short of wishing on an inherent penalty. They are 25000 gp per level for a reason. You still have them in an anti-magic field, it is as if you were born with them. Nothing that doesn't remove non-inherent ability scores remove them.... but rarely do you see them till 17+, and even then you have to decide when to "lock in"; after all, the wishest must be done in succession.
A cursed item could add negative levels to a stat, in effect reversing it.
Another option would be a cursed tome, which looks like a +2 and actually applies a -2 instead, for example.
Inherent bonuses are permanent. Barring GM intervention, there's no way to undo them. That is indeed why they're so expensive.
Wouldn't a cursed tome be capable of applying a permanent negative inherent bonus? Thus counteracting the previous application?
Creative Director
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Inherent bonuses are permanent. Barring GM intervention, there's no way to undo them. That is indeed why they're so expensive.Wouldn't a cursed tome be capable of applying a permanent negative inherent bonus? Thus counteracting the previous application?
I suppose so, but that's not something you'll ever see from a Paizo product, I don't think. For two reasons.
1) Penalties are generally intended to always stack, so we rarely assign types to a penalty at all.
2) A permanent penalty to an ability score should ALWAYS have a way to undo that penalty. Bestow curse is a great example; the penalty caused to an ability by that spell is permanent, but remove curse or break enchantment can remove that permanent penalty. A permanent penalty that forever reduces a character's ability score is really not all that fun at all.
EDIT: Just thought of one way to get permanent penalties: aging. Of course, if you DO gain permanent penalties in that way, there's a way to reverse them by finding some sort of fountain of youth effect to diminish a character's age... not that I believe we've put such an effect into the game yet, but it has real-world mythological support so I could certainly see something like that popping up...
Thanks to everyone for the ideas and rules-savvy discussion.
Inherent bonuses are permanent. Barring GM intervention, there's no way to undo them. That is indeed why they're so expensive.Wouldn't a cursed tome be capable of applying a permanent negative inherent bonus? Thus counteracting the previous application?I suppose so, but that's not something you'll ever see from a Paizo product, I don't think. For two reasons.
1) Penalties are generally intended to always stack, so we rarely assign types to a penalty at all.
2) A permanent penalty to an ability score should ALWAYS have a way to undo that penalty. Bestow curse is a great example; the penalty caused to an ability by that spell is permanent, but remove curse or break enchantment can remove that permanent penalty. A permanent penalty that forever reduces a character's ability score is really not all that fun at all.
EDIT: Just thought of one way to get permanent penalties: aging. Of course, if you DO gain permanent penalties in that way, there's a way to reverse them by finding some sort of fountain of youth effect to diminish a character's age... not that I believe we've put such an effect into the game yet, but it has real-world mythological support so I could certainly see something like that popping up...
LOL,
Never said it would be fun, just within the scope of the rules. :) So it is a way to remove them (I think I might personally limit it to only removing inherent bonuses, but then, it is a curse, and curses can be nasty).Honestly, I've never had inherent bonuses come up in game. Nobody ever wanted to waste the coinage on them, and I don't give them out as treasure.