I have always considered studded leather made with mithril studs to be legit, though I require the whole thing to be masterwork, not just the studs, which are automatically masterwork anyway, because of being made from mithril.
Okay so I just got the GMG and under armor random roll chart, it says to roll metal for studded leather armor...which means you can have mithril studded leather armor for +3 armor, +7 max dex and 5% ASF. I think I have my new favorite EK armor hehe :) .The studs could be made of mithril, but there isn't enough material to really affect the armour. From the PRD:
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.)A studded leather armour is mostly made of leather (80%-90% or so) and can not really be "made" of mithril in that respect. Same as making a mithril spear would not halve it's weight.
Studded leather in 3.x also took the place of ringmail...Ringmail was much more than 10% metal.
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Studded leather in 3.x also took the place of ringmail...Ringmail was much more than 10% metal.
And my chocolate milk is more than 10% chocolate syrup. So what? That has no bearing on the amount of metal in studded leather armor and I would not provide any benefit to leather armor with mithral studs in my games.
Studded leather in 3.x also took the place of ringmail...Ringmail was much more than 10% metal.And my chocolate milk is more than 10% chocolate syrup. So what? That has no bearing on the amount of metal in studded leather armor and I would not provide any benefit to leather armor with mithral studs in my games.
Why not? The studs themselves are enough to alter leather armor in the way of Dex penalties, armor bonus, armor check penalties, and arcane spell failure
Why not? The studs themselves are enough to alter leather armor in the way of Dex penalties, armor bonus, armor check penalties, and arcane spell failure
IIRC, leather armor and studded leather armor are actually fairly different from one another. Leather armor had a stiff leather 'breastplate' and basically cloth arms and legs. Studded leather was a more supple leather that covered the whole body, with metal studs to provide additional protection. So despite what one might assume from the names, Studded Leather armor is not just Leather armor with studs.
Please note that this is based on my recollection of the 3.x fluff and not actual historical armor. YMMV.
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Why not? The studs themselves are enough to alter leather armor in the way of Dex penalties, armor bonus, armor check penalties, and arcane spell failureIIRC, leather armor and studded leather armor are actually fairly different from one another. Leather armor had a stiff leather 'breastplate' and basically cloth arms and legs. Studded leather was a more supple leather that covered the whole body, with metal studs to provide additional protection. So despite what one might assume from the names, Studded Leather armor is not just Leather armor with studs.
Please note that this is based on my recollection of the 3.x fluff and not actual historical armor. YMMV.
From the AD&D Arms and Equipment Guide, page 6: "Leather armor, despite the popular misconception, is not the soft and supple leather used to make a ranger's boots or a druid's robes. [...] Leather armor is actually strong and stiff, having been hardened in boiling oil and then stretched over a wooden or stone model of a man's or woman's chest."
And then on page 8: "Studded leather armor has little in common with normal leather armor. While leather armor is a hardened shell, studded leather armor is soft and supple with hundreds of metal rivets affixed. The rivets are so close together that they form a flexible coating of hard metal that turns aside slashing and cutting attacks. The soft leather backing is little more than a means of securing the rivets in place."
While the description of leather armor remains consistent between the A&EG and the PF Core Rules, studded leather is described as "[s]imilar to leather armor, this suit is reinforced with small metal studs." My big question mark would then be is PFRPG studded leather actually different in nature than it was in pervious editions, or is the explanation given just not the most accurate.
Studded leather in 3.x also took the place of ringmail...Ringmail was much more than 10% metal.
So, why not just reintroduce ringmail? Make it cost 75gp, have the stats of Studded Leather, but can be made of any metal and gain the benefits.
IconoclasticScream posted:
"From the AD&D Arms and Equipment Guide, page 6: "Leather armor, despite the popular misconception, is not the soft and supple leather used to make a ranger's boots or a druid's robes. [...] Leather armor is actually strong and stiff, having been hardened in boiling oil and then stretched over a wooden or stone model of a man's or woman's chest."
And then on page 8: "Studded leather armor has little in common with normal leather armor. While leather armor is a hardened shell, studded leather armor is soft and supple with hundreds of metal rivets affixed. The rivets are so close together that they form a flexible coating of hard metal that turns aside slashing and cutting attacks. The soft leather backing is little more than a means of securing the rivets in place."
While the description of leather armor remains consistent between the A&EG and the PF Core Rules, studded leather is described as "[s]imilar to leather armor, this suit is reinforced with small metal studs." My big question mark would then be is PFRPG studded leather actually different in nature than it was in pervious editions, or is the explanation given just not the most accurate."
I would argue that by the AD&D page 8 reading above that Studded Leather was more about the metal and less the leather so Mithril Studded Leather would be just fine! :-)
As for the PFRPG reading it becomes shaky- but I would allow it as in historical studded leather it was the studs that made the difference not the leather- historical is closer to the AD&D description.
My general guideline is that if a druid can't wear it, it can get material bonuses.
Though I can't really understand why you couldn't make a mithral quarterstaff either.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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My general guideline is that if a druid can't wear it, it can get material bonuses.
Though I can't really understand why you couldn't make a mithral quarterstaff either.
+1. Either it's leather and druids can wear it, or it's metal and can be made of mithral.
I'd allow the mithral quarterstaff, too. I remember a 2nd ed. "iconic" that had a staff that was one end cold iron and one end silver... a wild mage, iirc.
My general guideline is that if a druid can't wear it, it can get material bonuses.
Though I can't really understand why you couldn't make a mithral quarterstaff either.
+1. Either it's leather and druids can wear it, or it's metal and can be made of mithral.
I'd allow the mithral quarterstaff, too. I remember a 2nd ed. "iconic" that had a staff that was one end cold iron and one end silver... a wild mage, iirc.
It's not so much question wether it contains metal (as for druid) but rather wether it is significant enough to gain the benefits of mithril.
A quarterstaff of mithril can be done in my opinion, though you have to use some common sense to adjucate it. The common mithril weapon assumes it is a weapon commonly made from metal, halving a mithril quarterstaff should not half weight, it might weigh more infact.
You can also debate wether a weapon made from heavier material will still be suitable as a simple weapon, I don't think this matters for mithril, but an adamantine quarterstaff or a steel one might become a martial weapon instead, presumably with better stats.
Typically, you cap an end of a quarterstaff with the metal, not make an entire pole of metal.
My general guideline is that if a druid can't wear it, it can get material bonuses.
Though I can't really understand why you couldn't make a mithral quarterstaff either.
The rules say you can't take something like a normal quarterstaff that normally has no metal and add a bit of mithral to it and have it make a difference rules-wise, but you can always make a solid mithral quarterstaff. Or you can find legit rules for a quarterstaff that has enough metal on the ends to make a difference in the stats and take that one and change the metal to mithral. Doing that would be no different than making a spear with a mithral point.
You can also debate wether a weapon made from heavier material will still be suitable as a simple weapon, I don't think this matters for mithril, but an adamantine quarterstaff or a steel one might become a martial weapon instead, presumably with better stats.
Much heavier. I have held a solid metal pole that was about the same size as a quarterstaff and it was much more difficult to handle just because of the weight.
My general guideline is that if a druid can't wear it, it can get material bonuses.
Though I can't really understand why you couldn't make a mithral quarterstaff either.
The rules say you can't take something like a normal quarterstaff that normally has no metal and add a bit of mithral to it and have it make a difference rules-wise, but you can always make a solid mithral quarterstaff. Or you can find legit rules for a quarterstaff that has enough metal on the ends to make a difference in the stats and take that one and change the metal to mithral. Doing that would be no different than making a spear with a mithral point.
Much heavier. I have held a solid metal pole that was about the same size as a quarterstaff and it was much more difficult to handle just because of the weight.
You can also debate wether a weapon made from heavier material will still be suitable as a simple weapon, I don't think this matters for mithril, but an adamantine quarterstaff or a steel one might become a martial weapon instead, presumably with better stats.
Well, something made from wrought iron will roughly be 10 times as heavy as a similar object made of hardwood, putting a quarterstaff at a weight of roughly 40 lb. wrought into a more efficient shape suitable for a metal staff it will prolly still weigh around 30lb, quite likely to slow and unbalancing to make an efficient weapon for a man-sized wielder. a staff from mithril would still in my opinion be feasible at a weight of roughly 15lb. it is still about 4 times the weight though, and might still require more specialized training to use.
See we have always played that studded leather doesn't get the benefit from mithril...BUT as I said, if you look in the GMG it says that it can in the armor chart. So this isn't about a houserule, it's what is offical. Studded leather can be made with mithril and gain the benefits of mithril.
FIFY
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See we have always played that studded leather doesn't get the benefit from mithril...BUT as I said, if you look in the GMG it says that it can in the armor chart. So this isn't about a houserule, it's what is offical. Studded leather can be made with mithril and gain the benefits of mithril.FIFY
Poke at nits :P .
See we have always played that studded leather doesn't get the benefit from mithril...BUT as I said, if you look in the GMG it says that it can in the armor chart. So this isn't about a houserule, it's what is offical. Studded leather can be made of mithril and gain the benefits of mithril.
yea hmm.. I dont have a problem with it, I seen pictures of studded leather which was essentially a leather suit with small metal plates covering the better part of it, I tend to think the metal is less significant than in other metal armors, but I can see how you'd still gain alot from cutting half the metal weight if it is made by the hand of an expert craftsman. (which it has since it is masterwork).
I had not considered it before though.
Druids can't wear studded because it contains metal. Leather and Hide are sewn.
But just google image what a studded is, or just look in your old 3.0/3.5 book in the equipment section. Basically, it's a leather armor with more layers of leather and stud reinforcements.
Personnally, Mithral studs wouldn't technically change anything in the armor stats, save 2 or 3 pounds. It's not enough to benefit from greater MaxDex because it doesn't really affect overall weight like it would with a complete metal armor.
Then again, if the GMG say it... I won't argue about RAW.
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Druids can't wear studded because it contains metal. Leather and Hide are sewn.
But just google image what a studded is, or just look in your old 3.0/3.5 book in the equipment section. Basically, it's a leather armor with more layers of leather and stud reinforcements.
Personnally, Mithral studs wouldn't technically change anything in the armor stats, save 2 or 3 pounds. It's not enough to benefit from greater MaxDex because it doesn't really affect overall weight like it would with a complete metal armor.
Then again, if the GMG say it... I won't argue about RAW.
Well...if you go by what the artwork says, then studded leather armor would fail to work as armor period. You either need the studs to be very close together or have those studs actually be holding something (like say small metal plates). In either case, it's a significant amount of metal...but that isn't really what the picture shows now is it ;) . In reality, what we see as studded leather is in all likelyhood small plate brigindine, which has small metal plates under the soft leather. It's quite light and effective as armor. Which should definately gain benefits from mithril. I have made a vambrace with lots of studs very close together and it does make an effective armor...but it weighted more then my plate vambraces so I'm not sold on this idea ever having existed...or being a good idea as it's uses more materials, more labor and protects less then many other types of armor (even boiled leather is better). Studded leather armor is one of those things that just doesn't make sense realistically if you follow the fluff...now with the it's metal armor ruling, it does make more sense...but honestly the fluff should change to make it into small plate brigindine.
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The studs in "studded leather" are only there to keep small metal plates or rings, which provide the defensive value, fixed to a layer of supple leather (or cloth) or in between two layers of leather or cloth.
So there is a lot of metal.
p.26 of Armour and Weapons in the Middle Ages by Charles H. Ashdown, which I think Gygax must have used as a reference because it seems like a lot of the 1e weapon and armor descriptions come straight from it.
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The studs in "studded leather" are only there to keep small metal plates or rings, which provide the defensive value, fixed to a layer of supple leather (or cloth) or in between two layers of leather or cloth.
So there is a lot of metal.
p.26 of Armour and Weapons in the Middle Ages by Charles H. Ashdown, which I think Gygax must have used as a reference because it seems like a lot of the 1e weapon and armor descriptions come straight from it.
Which is exactly what a small plate brigindine is :) .
Light brigandine and a jack of plate is what I'd default to for "studded leather". From what I've heard, there actually isn't any such beasty known as "studded leather" in a historical sense. Thus I'm totally for mithril "studded leather" being kosher.
Light brigandine and a jack of plate is what I'd default to for "studded leather". From what I've heard, there actually isn't any such beasty known as "studded leather" in a historical sense. Thus I'm totally for mithril "studded leather" being kosher.
Studded leather is for bikers and punks. Brigandine is for warriors!
Personally, I think mithril studs should work to reduce armor penalties. Even if a lot of the weight is from the leather itself, you can use lighter leather if the leather needs to carry less weight.
Light brigandine and a jack of plate is what I'd default to for "studded leather". From what I've heard, there actually isn't any such beasty known as "studded leather" in a historical sense. Thus I'm totally for mithril "studded leather" being kosher.Studded leather is for bikers and punks. Brigandine is for warriors!
Studded leather is for when you're BREAKIN' THE LAW - BREAKIN' THE LAW!
BREAKIN' THE LAW - BREAKIN' THE LAW![/Priest]|
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Light brigandine and a jack of plate is what I'd default to for "studded leather". From what I've heard, there actually isn't any such beasty known as "studded leather" in a historical sense. Thus I'm totally for mithril "studded leather" being kosher.Studded leather is for bikers and punks. Brigandine is for warriors!
Personally, I think mithril studs should work to reduce armor penalties. Even if a lot of the weight is from the leather itself, you can use lighter leather if the leather needs to carry less weight.
If we're going for realism, most of the weight of "studded leather" is its metal components.
I would classify studded leather as a light brigandine armor and splint mail as a heavy brigandine armor.
And banded mail was probably something altogether different than what is described in the Core Rulebook.
Well, banded mail seems to be a little disputed, historically, so I might be able to see it being rolled into the similar splint mail (/plated mail/splinted chainmail/plated chainmail), but they're definitely different from heavier examples of brigandine. I'd probably call a full body suit of brigandine a Medium armor (I think that's where it was put in a couple 3rd/3.5 books, IIRC), with studded leather being torso with maybe a tiny bit extra. Maybe make it similar to either hide or scale armor (scale being my personal preference).
i would personally consider a light brigandine shirtpiece (or eqivalent) made with a soft flexible cloth such as cotton or silk to to leather armor. canvas or cuir bouli versions would likely be studded leather. a full suit of the cuir bouli or canvas version would be treated as banded mail.
i would personally consider a light brigandine shirtpiece (or eqivalent) made with a soft flexible cloth such as cotton or silk to to leather armor. canvas or cuir bouli versions would likely be studded leather. a full suit of the cuir bouli or canvas version would be treated as banded mail.
let me fix this post.
i would consider a studded brigandine chestpiece (or equivlalent) equal to leather armor assuming it is made with cotton or silk instead of leather or canvas. (the latter makes studded leather) i would consider jack of plates to be equal to studded leather. a full suit of jack of plates would be equal to either banded mail or splint mail. a full suit of brigandine is as is for the SRD.
i would personally consider a light brigandine shirtpiece (or eqivalent) made with a soft flexible cloth such as cotton or silk to to leather armor. canvas or cuir bouli versions would likely be studded leather. a full suit of the cuir bouli or canvas version would be treated as banded mail.let me fix this post.
i would consider a studded brigandine chestpiece (or equivlalent) equal to leather armor assuming it is made with cotton or silk instead of leather or canvas. (the latter makes studded leather) i would consider jack of plates to be equal to studded leather. a full suit of jack of plates would be equal to either banded mail or splint mail. a full suit of brigandine is as is for the SRD.
I wasn't aware canvas, cotton or silk made proper armor, maybe padded if you layer it on thick. Cuir boulli is just the standard leather armor in D&D I think, as per the desciption of hardened leather, but likely not more than a chest piece.
I wasn't aware canvas, cotton or silk made proper armor, maybe padded if you layer it on thick. Cuir boulli is just the standard leather armor in D&D I think, as per the desciption of hardened leather, but likely not more than a chest piece.i would personally consider a light brigandine shirtpiece (or eqivalent) made with a soft flexible cloth such as cotton or silk to to leather armor. canvas or cuir bouli versions would likely be studded leather. a full suit of the cuir bouli or canvas version would be treated as banded mail.let me fix this post.
i would consider a studded brigandine chestpiece (or equivlalent) equal to leather armor assuming it is made with cotton or silk instead of leather or canvas. (the latter makes studded leather) i would consider jack of plates to be equal to studded leather. a full suit of jack of plates would be equal to either banded mail or splint mail. a full suit of brigandine is as is for the SRD.
it's the studs that provide most of the protection. you would be sacrificing a huge portion of the protection for easier mobility by doing so. (why i compared these alternatives to leather armor and not studded leather) and these alternatives would be much easier to sunder.
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it's the studs that provide most of the protection. you would be sacrificing a huge portion of the protection for easier mobility by doing so. (why i compared these alternatives to leather armor and not studded leather) and these alternatives would be much easier to sunder.I wasn't aware canvas, cotton or silk made proper armor, maybe padded if you layer it on thick. Cuir boulli is just the standard leather armor in D&D I think, as per the desciption of hardened leather, but likely not more than a chest piece.i would personally consider a light brigandine shirtpiece (or eqivalent) made with a soft flexible cloth such as cotton or silk to to leather armor. canvas or cuir bouli versions would likely be studded leather. a full suit of the cuir bouli or canvas version would be treated as banded mail.let me fix this post.
i would consider a studded brigandine chestpiece (or equivlalent) equal to leather armor assuming it is made with cotton or silk instead of leather or canvas. (the latter makes studded leather) i would consider jack of plates to be equal to studded leather. a full suit of jack of plates would be equal to either banded mail or splint mail. a full suit of brigandine is as is for the SRD.
No unless you have SO much studs that it would weight more then plate armor, then the studs will provide no protection. Historically the silk, linen, canvas armor provided protection because they were either layered (padded armor) or because they had small plated sewn or studded in (i.e. studded leather armor). The fact that the metal bits that are placed in is covered in leather, canvas or silk dosn't actually make the armor any less protective as it's the metal that is stopping the blow...not the cover. Nore does it affect the weight much as most of it comes from the metal plates. This of course assumes we are going for studded leather as small plate brigindine.
No unless you have SO much studs that it would weight more then plate armor, then the studs will provide no protection. Historically the silk, linen, canvas armor provided protection because they were either layered (padded armor) or because they had small plated sewn or studded in (i.e. studded leather armor). The fact that the metal bits that are placed in is covered in leather, canvas or silk dosn't actually make the armor any less protective as it's the metal that is stopping the blow...not the cover. Nore does it affect the weight much as most of it comes from the metal plates. This of course assumes we are going for studded leather as small plate...it's the studs that provide most of the protection. you would be sacrificing a huge portion of the protection for easier mobility by doing so. (why i compared these alternatives to leather armor and not studded leather) and these alternatives would be much easier to sunder.I wasn't aware canvas, cotton or silk made proper armor, maybe padded if you layer it on thick. Cuir boulli is just the standard leather armor in D&D I think, as per the desciption of hardened leather, but likely not more than a chest piece.i would personally consider a light brigandine shirtpiece (or eqivalent) made with a soft flexible cloth such as cotton or silk to to leather armor. canvas or cuir bouli versions would likely be studded leather. a full suit of the cuir bouli or canvas version would be treated as banded mail.let me fix this post.
i would consider a studded brigandine chestpiece (or equivlalent) equal to leather armor assuming it is made with cotton or silk instead of leather or canvas. (the latter makes studded leather) i would consider jack of plates to be equal to studded leather. a full suit of jack of plates would be equal to either banded mail or splint mail. a full suit of brigandine is as is for the SRD.
i was trying to justify 2 versions, a weaker lighter version and a stronger heavier one (leather equivalent vs. studded leather equivalent)
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I have always considered studded leather made with mithril studs to be legit, though I require the whole thing to be masterwork, not just the studs, which are automatically masterwork anyway, because of being made from mithril.
Then you can have:
Ribbed Leather: Leather Armour + 1 v Blade Weaponry (Swords, Spears, Daggers), +7 v Blunt Weaponry (Maces, Hammers, Clubs); Weight: Leather +20lb; Cost: 1000gp? Availability: Aristocrats only?
Description: Sewn into the inside of the tight fitting Leather are leather Sleeves into which curved Mithril Ribs may be inserted.
Studded leather in 3.x also took the place of ringmail...Ringmail was much more than 10% metal.
Studded leather is not ring mail, though. It's studded leather.
If I sell frozen goods, I can't replace my fat-free frozen yoghurt with ice cream and claim that because it took its place, it's still fat free.
(Bad example, I know, because the frozen yoghurt isn't really fat-free, that's a conspiracy, and the new stuff will taste horrible)
If adding the metal studds to a suit of normal leather armor to make it Studded Leather armor, increases the Skill check penalty, reduces the make dext bonus, increases the spell failure and bumps up the AC.
They why wouldn't mithril studs be effective as well?
Because it's still leather. The rule about only items that are made mostly out of mithral being able to benefit from it applies.
If that is not realistic enough for you, consider this: It's a leather armour, reinforced with metal studs. Doesn't matter what material the studs are in, you're still in a leather armour. At best, you get the same freedom of movement in mithral-studded leather as in regular leather armour, but not more. And from the looks of studded leather, you wouldn't get anything at all out of it (except a small reduction of weight, and just maybe the masterwork benefit) because it the increased lightness and suppleness won't really matter with those studs.
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Studded leather is not leather armor with studs.
The defensive value of studded leather comes from the small metal plates that are held in place by studs or sewn into a matrix of some other material.
Studded leather should be considered a metal armor even though on the surface it might appear to be mostly another material.
Studded leather is not leather armor with studs.
The defensive value of studded leather comes from the small metal plates that are held in place by studs or sewn into a matrix of some other material.
Studded leather should be considered a metal armor even though on the surface it might appear to be mostly another material.
I agree though you have to admit the name is kinda misleading.
Wow this is impressive. Now we will be seeing theoretical Celestial Studded Leather talks.
... For those rogues and fighters who really put everything they could into dex.