I can accept that as a general rule a I can not accept some gods such as Sarenrae or Norgorber having N clerics . You can't stand on the side lines with the goddess like her or the god or murder which ya know prob call for ya to murder people on holy days. I just don't buy it.
Edit: yep
"They celebrate his Ascension in midwinter by snatching a random person from the street, bringing him to the temple, quietly murdering him with poison, then hiding the body where it will never be found." so the act of a non evil guy huh. Murdering random folks is never a pure N act and ya do it yearly kinda always puts ya at evil.
Hey folks, player of the True Neutral Cleric of Norgorber here. I think a True Neutral alignment is completely valid for his set of beliefs... I think someone that is indifferent to the life or death of others could be a suitable follower. Deckard was emotionally detached from the concepts of good or evil... there was only action and consequence. He was completely apathetic to act of murder, viewing it as a strategic option rather then a moral dilemma.
Ok so the yearly murder of a random person is not an evil act for the sake of evil but a "strategic option" ...got ya. I'll be sure to note the people who kill just to be killing as N not evil as killing random folks makes you not evil as long as ya limit it to just once a year or so :)
Ok so the yearly murder of a random person is not an evil act for the sake of evil but a "strategic option" ...got ya. I'll be sure to note the people who kill just to be killing as N not evil as killing random folks makes you not evil as long as ya limit it to just once a year or so :)
Religious rights are regularly strange. Norgorber isn't ritualistically cannibalistic. Catholics regularly participate in communion, which to them is a literal act of cannibalism.
Considering the staggering amount of lives a PC takes in a career, I wouldn't think the ritual would be such a big deal, BUT what I meant by neutrality was apathy to the inherent value of life. The way I see it;
Moral Axis attitudes to the inherent value of life.
Good Characters see life as something sacred that needs to be preserved.
Neutral characters have no moral compunctions regarding the sanctity of life.
Evil characters have no regard for life whatsoever, willingly wasting it or ending it.
Oh and take a look at the Cheliax companion book, it has a section on neutral clerics of Asmodeus. If they can do it, anyone can.
Deckard, my cleric, was devoted completely to the reaper of reputations. The reason I chose true neutral for him was that I wanted him to have a complete and utter disconnect from any sort of emotional response... basically something akin to a Vulcan.
I can't see a Vulcan helping kill a random person every year just because and not be evil, sure he may not think he is evil, but evil people normally do not.
I don't mind N cleric of evil gods, what I do mind is murdering random folks and saying "I'm not evil". People seem to like to play a cleric of an evil god but when that evil god demands you do evil things to honor him you slowly become evil. You guys can play how ya want, but if ya help murder random folks on a yearly base I can't say your not evil.
as for Asmodeus, ya know I look and not once did I see it demand you murder random folks
It comes down to what makes you evil. And to me helping or taking part in the killing of random folks is across the line to what I call evil.
I can't see a Vulcan helping kill a random person every year just because and not be evil, sure he may not think he is evil, but evil people normally do not.
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
But the death of that one person per temple each year might be keeping dozens or hundreds alive, perhaps because it is in place to keep each individual cleric from going out and performing the same ritual and accidentally killing someone they shouldn't have. So you better believe there will be those in the Order that will see it as perfectly logical and necessary and not evil enough to personally make them Evil.
Bull the death only is to please a god, noting else. It may be logical but it still makes it evil. "Necessary evil" is still evil as are those who do them on a regular bases
Bull the death only is to please a god, noting else. It may be logical but it still makes it evil. "Necessary evil" is still evil as are those who do them on a regular bases
Moral Absolutism at its best... or worst?
Bull the death only is to please a god, noting else. It may be logical but it still makes it evil. "Necessary evil" is still evil as are those who do them on a regular basesMoral Absolutism at its best... or worst?
How you described your PC I would put hi as NE. And Vulcans are not N they are LN. they live by logic. Some one who thinks morals are below them aren't N so much as NE. Sure they may not go out of the way to hurt folks but feel nothing if they do, after all morals are a flawed cruch for the weak.
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I don't mind N cleric of evil gods, what I do mind is murdering random folks and saying "I'm not evil".
Again with the straw man! What did he ever do to you?
Not every single person is engaged in that activity, and not every member of a faith is morally responsible for everything members of that faith do, whether it involve improper touching of altar boys or flying planes into buildings.
Just because the Norgoobers have a yearly party where they gank someone, doesn't mean that *every* Norgoober has a hand on the knife.
The rules say that NE (and NG) gods neutral clerics. Common sense says Norgorber (and Sarenrae, and Shelyn, and Urgathoa) can have neutral clerics. What's the big?
Heck, Asmodeus and Zon-Kuthon (and Erastil, Iomedae and Torag) can have LN clerics, and Rovagug and Lamashtu (and Cayden Cailean and Desna) can have CN clerics, as well.
And the truly Neutral gods? Gozreh and Nethys can not only have NG clerics, but they can also have NE clerics (as well as LN and CN clerics). Gosh, prayer meetings must get pretty lively!
no straw man, if helping to murder random folks at lest once a year is not evil, cool run like that. To me that makes you evil.
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no straw man, if helping to murder random folks at lest once a year is not evil, cool run like that. To me that makes you evil.
Ah, so you've downgraded the hyperbole to 'helping,' even if by 'helping' you're applying it to everyone who is a member of the church, whether they attend that particular ceremony or not, whether they approve of that ceremony or not, or whether they 'help' or not.
By the book they take part, so yes they are in one it. It does not matter who the person is they took part in the murder and cover up. So yes they are evil.
yes, gods tend not to grant spells to clerics who do not honor them.It is black and white. Do you honor your gods most holy day or do you not?
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There is a good point. The book requires them to participate in the ritual. For a cleric, I'd imagine that failing to participate in the ritual would have serious consequences. Losing spell access and being required to personally and physically murder a random person off the street would probably be the atonement I'd set as a dm for someone who failed to participate in the ritual before they regained spell access.
There are two general viewpoints at play here. One is:
"The church is responsible to the god, and because this materially present being is paying attention, you have to follow all the precepts of the religion to be a member of the religion. You don't get to pick and choose."
The other one looks like:
"The church is responsible to the god, but the god isn't going to bother paying THAT much attention to individual members, so if some folks hum over certain words, come down with a bad case of the flu on ritual night, and otherwise just *generally* follow most of the ideals, they can retain membership in the religion."
Ramifications of view one are that either you're all in, or your not, which precludes things like not being evil because you're committing evil acts continuously.
Ramifications of view two are that you've got some super evil people performing these rituals. But you've also got those people who *in real churches* don't donate to the church funds, show up to fun events, and often miss regular day sermons. Those people might be able to avoid actually participating in evil acts, though willingly associating with an evil god's church probably leans them closer to the evil side it doesn't automatically push them over.
Both valid views, depending on how religions and gods function in your individual campaigns.
He may not but all cults of Norgorber have that day, the day Norgorber became a god. Not all gods have one set holy day, many do but not all. He however is one that does have such a day.
So do you obay your god or not? And if you do not honor him why would he keep you as a cleric?
Magic dealer that is a good brakedown. The way I see it is the first, other wise you simply can not fall. You could nrake tenets of faith left and right and only get caught if something looks in randomly.
If a god grants you a part of there power I think they keep an eye on folks who use that power.
As I said before, it's a dm call as to if this is a major tenant of the religion, and if not participating is a gross violation that denies spells. How many 'Christians' go to church every Sunday? How many only go on Christmas?
How many are part of the clergy? We are talking about the clergy here not lay worshippers. How many Christian clergy say "Eh to hell with easter and chrismas"
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It's also entirely possible to play a priest of a god and not be involved in the organized church.
Regardless, the RAW allows a neutral cleric of a NE deity. The odds of a cleric staying neutral are rather low.
This is part of the reason you can play clerics of Asmodeus in Pathfinder Society.
As a neutral character of a NE religion you are literally walking a tightrope every day. Want to see an excellent example of that tightrope? Go read the Erevis Cale books from forgotten realms. Cale is a barely neutral cleric who has to deal with his NE god of assassination constantly screwing with him and trying to trick him into slipping further toward the evil alignments.
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As an aside, you're selling Asmodeus a bit short as defined in this setting. His varied aspects, in my view, grant a fair bit more latitude in how he is interpreted.
Oh and take a look at the Cheliax companion book, it has a section on neutral clerics of Asmodeus. If they can do it, anyone can.
Asmodeous really comes across as being more strongly attuned to Law than to Evil. Odd for the ruler of Hell, but that's the impression that the fluff gives.
That being said, neutral clerics? Ha! I'll do you one better! PALADINS of Asmodeus. They exist.
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Cale is a barely neutral cleric who has to deal with his NE god of assassination constantly screwing with him and trying to trick him into slipping further toward the evil alignments.
The question is, why do gods even want worshippers? Do they get something from them? Do they 'win' something for having more? Is there a benefit to more bodies in the pews, or a benefit to having only a very small, very dedicated following that slavishly follows one's core doctrines?
The game mechanics assume that every diety allows Clerics up to one step away from them on the alignment chart, so that a Neutral Evil god explicitly accepts and tolerates Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil and true Neutral worshippers, even if he thinks one of them is too unrestrained and unpredictable, another is too hung up on rules and procedures, and the last is too squeamish and soft-hearted.
The fact that every god follows these rules (except, say, St. Cuthbert, in Greyhawk, which is explicitly made an exception), suggests that quantity is more important to the gods than being 100% sympatico in moral or ethical alignment. By accepting Clerics of the 'one step adjacent' moral and ethical alignments, each diety is 'spreading a big tent' and willingly empowering clergy who don't *perfectly* emulate their core values.
Norgorber takes this one step further, dividing his church into four seperate sub-churches, devoted to Father Skinsaw, the Gray Master, Blackfingers and the Reaper of Reputation. Father Skinsaw, the specific aspect devoted to the act of murder, seems to be one of the outlier aspects, encouraging *chaotic* behavior, and even the ritual in question, the murder of a *random* person, is an inherently chaotic act (in addition to being evil), making it feel less like a core value of Norgorber, who isn't chaotic.
The Neutral clerics of Norgorber might find the act offensive from a moral standpoint, and not bother to participate (which, as Norgorber, by the rules, doesn't just allow, but actively recruits Neutral Clerics, they can explicitly do) while the Lawful Evil clerics of Norgorber find it distasteful from an *ethical* standpoint, since it is lawless and senseless, and either similarly gloss over it, or perform some symbolic representation of it (like the symbolic cannibalism of the holy mass), or arrange for the 'randomly chosen' victim to be not-quite-so-random.
Since Norgorber and his church explicitly recruits, trains and empowers Neutral Clerics, per the rules, it's safe to assume that a Neutral (or Lawful) Cleric isn't forced to participate in rites that would turn them Evil (or Chaotic).
It is quite possible that some dieties might later, like St. Cuthbert, explicitly prove to be exceptions, forbid clergy of one or more moral or ethical alignments, or even forbidden clergy of any alignment but their own alignment, in 100% agreeance. But Golarion doesn't have any specific examples described in this manner, that I've noticed, as of yet. Such a diety might end up self-marginalizing themself out of a job, retricting their worshipper base again and again until their church shrinks into self-obsolescene, pushing away anyone who isn't doctrinally pure until it is left with a tiny devoted base of extremists who die out in a generation or two, unable to attract new blood or new ideas.
The question is, why do gods even want worshippers? Do they get something from them? Do they 'win' something for having more? Is there a benefit to more bodies in the pews, or a benefit to having only a very small, very dedicated following that slavishly follows one's core doctrines?
I have seen in other gaming worlds that the more followers a deity has, the more powerful that deity becomes. In fantasy settings, the power of prayer is very real and deities feed off that power. If one has few enough followers, then a demotion to demi-god status could happen. A total loss of followers could turn that deity into a "forgotten god" with very little power to influence things in the mortal world until they are "re-discovered."
We are not talking RAW but setting, setting always over rides RAW, every time. Raw is broad it has to be, while most gods are one step they do have exceptions. Norgorber requires his clergy to do an act of pure evil to ritualistically kill a random person and hide the body so it can never be found on a yearly base, not even Asmodeous requires something like that.
And again you overlook that the Ascension is practiced by all clergy of Norgorber every midwinter. It does not matter if your a Blackfinger,greymaster, reaper or skinshaw you take part in that Ceremony. It is the one and only faith wide Ceremony. The Ascension is his most holy and scarred rite there is no side stepping, there is no "I'll do it next year" If you can't make it then ya need to preform it yourself.
Your not a lay worshiper who comes to pay lip service, your a clergy who believes in The teachings of Norgorber with every fiber of your being, you believe in him so much he has chosen to grant you a portion of his power because of the strength of your faith in him.
Yet when it's time to show that faith and devotion by preforming his most holy right you "skip it"? Those unwilling to devote themselves to their god never make it into the clergy. Norgorber's church goes so far as to kill them if they fail.
So it comes down to if you made it far enough to be a cleric you both have the faith to carry out this rite and the will to do so, otherwise how did you even live and why do you have spells as your no more devote then a guy who comes once a week to church and pays lip service
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Norgorber requires his clergy to do an act of pure evil to ritualistically kill a random person and hide the body so it can never be found on a yearly base, not even Asmodeous requires something like that.
Well, one cleric per congregation, anyway.
The Neutral Clerics probably aren't the ones who volunteer for taht job.
And again you overlook that the Ascension is practiced by all clergy of Norgorber every midwinter.
If by 'all clergy' you mean 'a cleric, who might not be the one you're playing,' then yeah.
The game allows Neutral, Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil clerics of Norgorber, despite the fact that Norgorber is neither Chaotic nor Lawful, and is Evil.
*Norgorber* doesn't seem to have a problem with this, 'cause he's apparently a pretty accepting fellow.
Even the gods that seem pretty uptight, like Iomedae and Asmodeus, tolerate clergy that don't precisely follow their ethical or moral alignment, so that LG Iomedae grants spells to LN and NG clerics, despite their 'moral failings' or 'lack of ethics.' She's the god of duty, and *she* grants spells to clerics who don't toe the line. Norgorber is the god of lies and betrayal, *much, much, much* less uptight about such things.
Should Norgorber have higher standards than Iomedae?
Is 'Team Evil' really the elite cream of the crop, with principles and standards and quality requirements that Team Good ignores?