What do you think about the Dungeon Crasher alternate class feature: overpowered or not? Note: I know that allowing such-and-such 3.5 material in a Pathfinder game depends on the GM's approval, I'm just testing the paizonian waters, here.
The planned build contains Shield Mastery (and its prereq. Shield Slam) for happy bashing the enemies into walls/trees/whatever, triggering the Dungeon Crasher's extra damage and having them falling prone. Is this correct?
Is the bull rush attempt made with the die roll used for the attack itself, or another? Is the damage from the attack added to the CMB check?
Spring Attack is also envisioned to be able to move after the initial hit/bull rush, to position near the fallen foe. Then, as he stands up, bash him again. Does he fall prone again?
And full-attack afterwards. Is it even legit to rush him several times? Is it possible to rush someone prone?
I know that sometimes we all like to demonstrate our superior intellect by making obscure references off-hand and catching everyone else clueless, but would it be possible to actually describe, or provide a link to, the obscure reference you're making?
Just in case some of us have no clue what a dungeon crasher is.
What do you think about the Dungeon Crasher alternate class feature: overpowered or not? Note: I know that allowing such-and-such 3.5 material in a Pathfinder game depends on the GM's approval, I'm just testing the paizonian waters, here.
I'm not familiar with it. My answers below are based on Tim's description of it.
The planned build contains Shield Mastery (and its prereq. Shield Slam) for happy bashing the enemies into walls/trees/whatever, triggering the Dungeon Crasher's extra damage and having them falling prone. Is this correct?
That sounds right. Whether this is overpowered probably depends on how much damage Dungeon Crasher grants.
Is the bull rush attempt made with the die roll used for the attack itself, or another? Is the damage from the attack added to the CMB check?
Normally features that allow a free combat maneuver also require a separate roll. However, shield slam does say "substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check". That sounds like you just compare the to-hit roll you already made with the targets CMD.
In general, that is a bad idea, since you are biasing the dice towards higher values. (Low dice rolls miss and do not trigger the effect). However, that appears to be what the rules say.
Spring Attack is also envisioned to be able to move after the initial hit/bull rush, to position near the fallen foe. Then, as he stands up, bash him again. Does he fall prone again?
Potentially. However, since the AoO from standing up interrupts his activity, he falls prone from the prone position, then stands up. (You do get the -4 to AC from prone on the AoO.)
And full-attack afterwards. Is it even legit to rush him several times? Is it possible to rush someone prone?
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
Unless you can make multiple attacks at the end of a charge, you generally cannot bull rush someone multiple times with a single action. It requires it's own standard action rather than replacing an attack, so you cannot do it as part of a full attack. Of course, there is nothing preventing you from trying it multiple times in multiple rounds.
If the same target provokes multiple AoO from you, you have combat reflexes and your normal attack triggers a bull rush (as this build does), that would also allow multiple bull rushes.
Prone does not appear to grant any bonus or immunity to bull rushes (despite the fact that you would think it is harder to move someone lying on the ground). In fact, the -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks would also affect their CMD, so it is actually easier to bull rush a prone target.
Sorry DM_Blake and thanks Tim. Despite the closedness, there are numerous places on the Web where one can get more information on this ability, starting at one infamous fighter's handbook.
udalrich, thanks for the long post. I think there's a misunderstanding after your last couple of quotes. I was reflecting on the fact that a full-attack dealing several Slams (obviously needing Improved TWF or some other shenanigans) on a foe (who happens to stand right next to a wall) will include several [free] Bull Rushes. I was wondering about the mechanical and narrative aspects of such an action.
Starting with a standing foe:
- first Slam pushes him against the wall, dealing damage and making him fall prone
- second Slam pushes him against the wall (again?), dealing damage (again?) and... well... he's already prone
If some people have had experiences playing or dealing with players using the Dungeon Crasher ACF, please share.
|
Well, this may or may not help. Pg 199 of the pathfinder core book talks about bull rushing.
You can move with the target, but you must have the available movement to do so.
With the shield slam feat, it's a bit more draconic. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-ft step or to spend an action to move this turn.
So, basically, if you don't already have an enemy pinned against a wall, you won't be able to spend a whole round making attacks and moving him back against the wall.
For a target standing against a wall, as per your example, there might be an issue.
The bull rush entry on 199 says:
"You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle."
If you don't have at least 5 ft of open space in which to push an opponent back into, you can't bull rush.
From this, I would say that you couldn't bull rush a creature who is already standing next to a wall, which is kind of devastating to the build your considering.
I don't have the dungeonscape stuff though, so I don't know if that feat bypasses the requirement of at least 5 ft of open space to bull rush, or just provides damage bonuses on ending a bull rush at a solid surface.
The thing is that Dungeon Crasher allows you to bull rush people into walls.
I think a sensible nerf could be to allow the extra damage only if the foe is thrown back at least 5 feet.
Bull Rush doesn't allow to push people into walls, but Dungeon Crasher allows it.
"Force an opponent to move into a wall" is misleading since the opponent doesn't actually move into said wall: he's pushed and crushed against the wall.
He then "stops as normal." What does "normal" actually mean, here? In the middle of his 5-foot square, or completely against the wall?
The (fluffy part of the) rules say that, during a fight, people move around. Does that mean that, between attacks, people reposition themselves in the middle of their square?
Whichever the interpretation is, I don't really see why the foe couldn't be crushed again. Picture yourself being pummelled while standing against a wall. Said wall is going to hurt you almost as much as your opponent's punches.