One of the giant flaws (?) of D&D (3.5 and earlier) was it's enormous dependency on magical items to balance the characters at medium and upper levels. Does Pathfinder still have this flaw, or are the characters more balanced?
Thoughts?
jh
I think that of all the editions that 4e is the most dependent upon magical items and that if that had been thought of as a flaw they would have removed all the '+' items from that game.
As for Pathfinder I think it's about in line with 3e in this regard, or marginally less if anything.
If you view it as a problem there are steps you can take in any of the editions to mitigate it. But I think that people like the idea of magic items and as such the 'mainstream' version will have them. Likewise I think that this is why 4e didn't get rid of '+' items, even though the system would work even better without them.
-James
From a standpoint of bonus to attack or defense any version of D&D is equally dependent on magic bonuses, depending on the creatures presented to the players per the DM. WOTC did provide a 4E option in the character builder to compensate for a "low magic" campaign by granting expected bonuses per weapon, or implements, directly to the character. But previous versions of D&D have more specific and powerful affects presented by spell classes, which makes certain creatures harder to defeat (regardless of magic bonuses), so there may be a spell class dependency that would extend itself into magic items should certain spells not be available. But for the majority, some magic items are expected, regardless of version. The problems may change depending on the mechanics that are predominant.
I've never found the game to be dependent on magic items. You can play it any way you wish.
Now the CR system depends on magic items, the game doesn't. You can modify the CR system to account for a low magic or high magic world. I'm not sure where I read it but changing the APL of the party at 5, 10 and 15 works. I've used it with high magic game and it seemed to work well.
So the APL is 12 and I want a hard encounter CR 14 for experience. Now building the encounter I apply +2 APL. One 5th level and one for 10th level. I build the encounter as CR 16.
The reverse should work too with a low magic game. Using the same example a hard encounter with part of level 12 character with little or no magic items would a CR 10 encounter so if they are successful they get XP as though it was CR 14 encounter. I've never tried it.
Some classes are definitely more dependent on items than others. Monks don't need any, for example, but fighters work best with good weapons and armour at least.
I am likely going to use something like this in my next game, where players just choose between 'big six' like abilities as they level. Then i can leave things open for the interesting items every once in a while that are just fun because they have unique abilities like the cloak of the bat.
Any chance of you doing this in the game you're trying to get together now?
lol, strike while the iron is hot Yeti1069.
I dont know about dependancy as a whole, but I strongly desire a game where stat boost items are not needed. I would be hugely in favor of a high point buy or liberal dice rolling method in our game with a ban on stat boost items. I would love to have my belt and head slots back for things that provide more flavor and more unique options than just getting my strength up to par for my level etc. Alternatively I have always loved the traditional fantasy concept of the hero with one fantastic magic item and little to nothing else, but its a little tough to do unless the thing levels with you as it will be to strong at low levels and to weak at higher in most cases. Yes I know there are splat rules for this, but my DM has never been a fan.
I think that stats play way too big of a roll in the power of your character in the first place. If the stats themselves were toned down then stat boosting items would be by default.
So we arrive at the core of two different but interlinked problems:
my Players demand a certain amount of +x items and complain if they are behind the curve (real of perceived).
This itself wouldn't be a problem if you either make it clear that this is your game and you give out what you think is right or to simply give them what they want.
Easy fix if it weren't for:
+x items, though boring, are considered necessary and "steal" the slots of more fun and interesting items.
The Headbank/Belt, a Ring and the Cloak and often also the Amulet and the Bracers slot are practically reserved for +x items up to a point that players wouldn't consider even a powerful item in these slots.
Simple fix: combine magic items. Cloak of the Bat/Protection+2 - it's all in the rules.
Complex fix 1: disallow all these items and factor the bonus into the classes.
Complex fix 2: raise the CR of certain monsters and/or eliminate things as damage reduction.
Some classes are definitely more dependent on items than others. Monks don't need any, for example, but fighters work best with good weapons and armour at least.
Actually I think due to his massive need for multiple good scores to compete with a standard fighter the Monk exemplifies my issue with stat boost items.
I dont know about dependancy as a whole, but I strongly desire a game where stat boost items are not needed. I would be hugely in favor of a high point buy or liberal dice rolling method in our game with a ban on stat boost items. I would love to have my belt and head slots back for things that provide more flavor and more unique options than just getting my strength up to par for my level etc. Alternatively I have always loved the traditional fantasy concept of the hero with one fantastic magic item and little to nothing else, but its a little tough to do unless the thing levels with you as it will be to strong at low levels and to weak at higher in most cases. Yes I know there are splat rules for this, but my DM has never been a fan.I think that stats play way too big of a roll in the power of your character in the first place. If the stats themselves were toned down then stat boosting items would be by default.
I agree but unfortunately that is the nature of the game, some concepts and or classes need multiple good stats and some need only one. Those ones that need multiple will always have to load up on stat boost items to keep from being outshined on a consistant basis.
PFRPG isn't dependent enough on magic items.
As a GM, I have to ask. WTF? Are you serious!!
Per the GameMastery Guide, the default level of magic in the game is "High Fantasy". Are you serioulsy advocating for magic items to be more available than they already are?
I mean, different tastes and all, but it's a hell of a lot easier to add more magic into a campaign than it is to take magic out or lessen it's availability.
So we arrive at the core of two different but interlinked problems:
my Players demand a certain amount of +x items and complain if they are behind the curve (real of perceived).
This itself wouldn't be a problem if you either make it clear that this is your game and you give out what you think is right or to simply give them what they want.
Easy fix if it weren't for:
+x items, though boring, are considered necessary and "steal" the slots of more fun and interesting items.
The Headbank/Belt, a Ring and the Cloak and often also the Amulet and the Bracers slot are practically reserved for +x items up to a point that players wouldn't consider even a powerful item in these slots.
Simple fix: combine magic items. Cloak of the Bat/Protection+2 - it's all in the rules.
Complex fix 1: disallow all these items and factor the bonus into the classes.
Complex fix 2: raise the CR of certain monsters and/or eliminate things as damage reduction.
We have started playing around with the combo items...word to the wise, reaaaaaaallly expensive unless somebody in your party is a crafter.
I think that stats play way too big of a roll in the power of your character in the first place. If the stats themselves were toned down then stat boosting items would be by default.
I think it would be worse. I remember 1st and 2nd edition where the stats didn't really give you much until they got really high. The stat boosting items were sought after more just to get those bonuses.
One of the giant flaws (?) of D&D (3.5 and earlier) was it's enormous dependency on magical items to balance the characters at medium and upper levels. Does Pathfinder still have this flaw, or are the characters more balanced?
Pathfinder doesn't have a dependency on magical items. The CR/EL system has a dependency on magical items.
If you remove the CR system, what do you have? Some encounters are easy, some hard, and some challenge the group just right. Remove magical items, and some encounters are hard, some are easy, and some are just right.
The CR system is a tool. You don't use a hammer to paint your house, so if magical power is changes, the CR system gets changed.
Or you could just scrap it, since the CR system was never intended to be the "end all be all" of encounter design. It is a tool to help DMs with the process, and if you make ever encounter "level appropriate," you might as well just keep everyone at 1st level, since the ratio of character power to enemy power never changes. There's a name for that game: Checkers.
Great points!
I'd still like a codified set of rules or guidelines for achieving this, however.
As a GM, I have to ask. WTF? Are you serious!!Per the GameMastery Guide, the default level of magic in the game is "High Fantasy". Are you serioulsy advocating for magic items to be more available than they already are?
I mean, different tastes and all, but it's a hell of a lot easier to add more magic into a campaign than it is to take magic out or lessen it's availability.
Apologies for the first line in this post. It was a heavy-handed way to emphasize the point of my post.
With Pathfinder (and pretty much every version of D&D) already being in the High Fantasy camp, it's tough to envision a scenario (or a manageable game for the matter) where magic items are even MORE available than they already are.
I think that stats play way too big of a roll in the power of your character in the first place. If the stats themselves were toned down then stat boosting items would be by default.I think it would be worse. I remember 1st and 2nd edition where the stats didn't really give you much until they got really high. The stat boosting items were sought after more just to get those bonuses.
Agreed. I have no desire to go back to the days of having to have a 17, 18, or 18/00 in a prime stat to be "viable".