Is there a way to counter "fly" if you know in advance that your opponent has it? The villain has access to inside information on the party's strengths and weaknesses and an unhallow effect.
I am running Hall of Harsh Reflections and have been looking at the finale against Zyrxog. This guy will be levitating and is a real badass. He is so much of a badass that I was seriously thinking of nerfing him down to standard stats for his race without class levels.
However, one thing that strikes me as being really "swingy" is whether the party have access to flight or not. This chap is no good in a toe to toe fight with a flying fighter UNLESS he keeps his character levels to give him a chance. BUT if the party sorceror doesn't take "fly" then with his original stats he looks like he will slaughter the party with multiple high-DC mindblasts (and he might do so even against a flying fighter).
This is really a sort of side-trek adventure so I don't want this to be a likely TPK. I could have both stat blocks and just insert the easier one if they don't take fly, but then I run the risk of buff Zyrxog still murdering them even if they fly...
So, I was wondering whether to use the weaker Zyrxog stats so he doesn't instantly walk all over them, whilst countering the party's fly spell (if they have one) to make it more than a simple case of sending the flying fighter up to chop him down in 2 rounds. However, this depends on it being possible to counter "fly" in some way...
stuff about the fight
Are you playing using pathfinder rules or 3.5 rules. If he is converted to pathfinder he is more than a match in melee with the right feats. This is a tough fight, but a mindflayer without class levels is not a boss fight. I guess the next question is do you want this to be a boss-type fight or just another fight. The skill of your players will also be a factor.
Fly can be counterspelled, but I don't think Z would waste time with a counterspell. He would probably just cast dispel magic if a party member became an issue.
stuff about the fightAre you playing using pathfinder rules or 3.5 rules. If he is converted to pathfinder he is more than a match in melee with the right feats. This is a tough fight, but a mindflayer without class levels is not a boss fight. I guess the next question is do you want this to be a boss-type fight or just another fight. The skill of your players will also be a factor.
Fly can be counterspelled, but I don't think Z would waste time with a counterspell. He would probably just cast dispel magic if a party member became an issue.
I want him to be a challenge but probably not a real bad boss fight (as the next adventure is really the big bad of the Free City section of the path). However, as written he looks a real party killer especially if they don't have fly.
I am playing pathfinder but not usually doing much to the adventure as written since everyone says its a PC killer in 3.5(although suggestions for Z gratefully received!)
If you run the adventure as written, and have Z show up as they're leaving the dopple hideout, mind blast your PCs, then leave and let the drow finish them off, then the PCs will know how deadly the mind blast can be. If they dont show any indication of researching mind flayers and trying to discover a way to defend themselves from mind blast you can try to give them hints to do some research that leads them to discover that spell immunity can be used for spell-like abilities as well as spells. If they use that to prepare for their show down with Zyrxog it should help significantly with the deadliness.
When my group faced him it turned into a TPK. The second time around with a new group they had scrolls of spell immunity and it was still tough but they survived.
When my group faced him it turned into a TPK. The second time around with a new group they had scrolls of spell immunity and it was still tough but they survived.
It was extremely close to a TPK for my party as well. It would have been if I hadn't forgotten about his ring of counterspelling.. Just as well; I don't like TPKs :)
I don't like TPKs :)
Me neither. It just ends up being more work for the DM having to tie a new group into the existing storyline.
If you run the adventure as written, and have Z show up as they're leaving the dopple hideout, mind blast your PCs, then leave and let the drow finish them off, then the PCs will know how deadly the mind blast can be. If they dont show any indication of researching mind flayers and trying to discover a way to defend themselves from mind blast you can try to give them hints to do some research that leads them to discover that spell immunity can be used for spell-like abilities as well as spells. If they use that to prepare for their show down with Zyrxog it should help significantly with the deadliness.
When my group faced him it turned into a TPK. The second time around with a new group they had scrolls of spell immunity and it was still tough but they survived.
I didn't realise there was a counter to mind blast! But you are correct, of course, as its a spell like rather than supernatural ability. And you make a good point about a little advance warning from the ambush at the end of the dopple hideout. I will reconsider this in the light of what you said, since a bit (or a lot) of DM nudging towards a spell immunity defence could well make all the difference. Without this I just think Z is an absolute killer and although that would be fine for a one-off adventure, I don't want a TPK at this point in the Adventure Path. This just shows how useful these boards are so we can learn from others' experiences!
So, in your group's successful battle, I presume he was effectively a nasty sorceror chucking fireballs and lightning around whilst his octopins provided a distraction?
Consider calculating Z's correct Mind Blast DC manually before you run this encounter - IIRC it is overstated by at least 2 in the adventure. Could make the difference between a memorable yet challenging victory for the party and an unfair TPK, as nearly happened when I ran it.
Good luck,
Kang
So, in your group's successful battle, I presume he was effectively a nasty sorceror chucking fireballs and lightning around whilst his octopins provided a distraction?
I wish
The way it ended up playing out in my campaign went like this:
The city then enlists the heroes' of the games to track down Loris and they find their way to Zyrxogs lair.
The TPKd group made it all the way to the room with the giant stone brain so all the drow and the octopins in the cavern were already dead.
I beefed the caverns back up a little by working out the following backstory--after the first group wiped out Zyrxog's dopplegangers and drow he paid a visit to Loris, who suggested he use the dopplegangers still infiltrating the city watch to assign a certain necromancer prisoner from Diamond Lake (Filge ;)) to a forced labor sewer cleaning party. Then Zyrxog could dominate Filge and eat the brains of the rest of the prisoners.
Zyrxog had Filge zombiefy all the drow corpses so when the new group of PCs entered the caverns they faced some new pit traps, zombies, Filge—who they killed before even getting a chance to realize it was Filge :(—and Loris.
After they took care of all of the above they started heading out of the cavern so I decided to have Zyrxog (who had been warned of the intrusion and was keeping track on the events via his scrying pool) dimension door near the exit and face the party.
He only had 2 beads left on his fireball necklace so he used those and lightning bolts but in the end the party was able to take him out without too much trouble because I forgot to have him levitate up out of their dwarf melee fighter's reach.
So, in your group's successful battle, I presume he was effectively a nasty sorceror chucking fireballs and lightning around whilst his octopins provided a distraction?I wish
The way it ended up playing out in my campaign went like this:
** spoiler omitted **...
So, if you had remembered levitate, do you think they would still have triumphed? (Still worried about fly... I suppose I could maybe work in advance info about this alongside the mind blast defence...)
So, if you had remembered levitate, do you think they would still have triumphed? (Still worried about fly... I suppose I could maybe work in advance info about this alongside the mind blast defence...)
Yeah, he would have lasted a few more rounds and been able to dish out a bit more damage but i dont think he would have been able to kill them.
If your group faces him in the Cathedral he will have Fire Resistance 20 and the unhallowed effect along with the octopin, so that will likely make it quiet a bit tougher. If you want to make it more surviveable you can try just removing the unhallowed effect and the octopin. That coupled with scrolls of spell immunity should keep Zyrxog scary but make him less of a TPK waiting to happen.
I am gonna run Zyrxog as written, but fix his mind blast DC of course. I have 6 PC's and we're using the Pathfinder rules so they are a little tougher than regular 3.5 characters. In addition 4 or 5 of the 6 have good Will saves.
However, the fact that the illithid can do a blast every round is a little disturbing. So I really hope the group decides of some decent tactics after their first run in with him, or they may end up a TPK as well.
I don't go easy on my PC's anymore, it's more fun when I make things challenging :)
Haven't read the adventure, but the usual counter to fly is dispel magic.
You can also do damage to flying creatures. Re-read the Fly skill, it tells you when you need to make a check.
So, do things that force fly checks. People will fail eventually.
You can also use battlefield control spells like solid fog (doesn't need to be on the ground), or summon up some flying help.
There were some specific 3.5 spells for this purpose in the spell compendium.
