Raw:
Find the item’s price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
Find the DC on Table: Craft Skills.
Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.
Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s worth of work.
20 arrows = 1gp = 10sp
DC = 12
3sp raw mats
Make check * dc = sp for a week if check succeeded
Verification A) So let's say your one day check is 19. 19 * 12 / 7 = 32.5 sp. This is 65 arrows worth of crafting.
Question A) do you guys just take the gold component, or will you let / force the pc source it? Eg they spend time + survival / knowledge checks to find good feathers sticks for shafts and rocks for heads. For the case of a longbow maybe they need to make a dc 28 check to find a useable piece of wood for the bow. Maybe they need to Sind a smith to cast some arrowheads.
Question B) how much down time is required for one days check?
Edit: Question C) What does profession Fletcher/bowyer give you that your craft bows does not.
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Raw:
Find the item’s price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
Find the DC on Table: Craft Skills.
Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.
Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s worth of work.20 arrows = 1gp = 10sp
DC = 12
3sp raw mats
Make check * dc = sp for a week if check succeededVerification A) So let's say your one day check is 19. 19 * 12 / 7 = 32.5 sp. This is 65 arrows worth of crafting.
Question A) do you guys just take the gold component, or will you let / force the pc source it? Eg they spend time + survival / knowledge checks to find good feathers sticks for shafts and rocks for heads. For the case of a longbow maybe they need to make a dc 28 check to find a useable piece of wood for the bow. Maybe they need to Sind a smith to cast some arrowheads.
Question B) how much down time is required for one days check?
A)In pretty much every case I've ever seen, when someone has craft bow or anything else for that matter, they always tend to try to look for stuff they can use to craft. For instance you kill an owlbear, the elf declares "I'm going to pluck some feathers for arrows and cut some sinew out of its leg for string"
A simple craft check, of like... 10 or something crazy easy and blam! they have enough supplies to make plenty of arrows and a string or 2.If they don't do this, then just make them buy the supplies, it's really lazy but it gets the job done.
B) Usually 8 hours crafting time is standard, 4 hours if you add (EDIT:!!) 10 to the DC for the craft. So you could have just made 65 arrows in 8 hours, or ... idk how many in 4
C) Profession bowyer is the skill to SELL the two products not to MAKE them.
A)In pretty much every case I've ever seen, when someone has craft boywer or anything else for that matter, they always tend to try to look for stuff they can use to craft. For instance you kill an owlbear, the elf declares "I'm going to pluck some feathers for arrows and cut some sinew out of its leg for string"
A simple craft check, of like... 10 or something crazy easy and blam! they have enough supplies to make plenty of arrows and a string or 2.
If they don't do this, then just make them buy the supplies, it's really lazy but it gets the job done.B) Usually 8 hours crafting time is standard, 4 hours if you add 5 to the DC for the craft. So you could have just made 65 arrows in 8 hours, or ... idk how many in 4
8 hours?! This means when you do a check for a week it's a 40h weeks work?
I thought this was a in spare down time, a few hours a day. Did I miss some raw?|
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8 hours?! This means when you do a check for a week it's a 40h weeks work?
I thought this was a in spare down time, a few hours a day. Did I miss some raw?
If you look at how much "downtime" you have usually you actually have alot more than you might think. 2 hours before bed, an hour when you stop to rest/eat lunch. Whenever you are waiting around for someone, during your 2 hour night watch, the hour & a half in the morning while the spellcasters pray/study. Not to mention, even in dungeons you dont adventure for 18 hours and then rest. You usually go for maybe 5-6 then rest up to heal and eat etc, this is a good opportunity get the RP requirement of time in.
TL:DR you can get in 8 hours of work in 24 hours pretty easily if you plan ahead and work while you travel as well.
My dear sir, maybe it's the difficulty of translating from your system of measurements to Pathfinder's infinitely more respectible standards, but I find that many of your answers often read more like you're stating yoru own guesses, not supported by RAW facts, and you are in many cases wrong. Maybe you're just stating your own opinions or houserules, but your posts don't make that clear, which can be confusing in a "Rules Questions" forum.
Please check your facts before providing incorrect answers that you state as if they are fact.
A)In pretty much every case I've ever seen, when someone has craft bow or anything else for that matter, they always tend to try to look for stuff they can use to craft. For instance you kill an owlbear, the elf declares "I'm going to pluck some feathers for arrows and cut some sinew out of its leg for string"
A simple craft check, of like... 10 or something crazy easy and blam! they have enough supplies to make plenty of arrows and a string or 2.
If they don't do this, then just make them buy the supplies, it's really lazy but it gets the job done.
This is entirely a houserule. While it is quite reasonable, there is no RAW to support crafting arrows from owlbear parts. Me, I would also allow the very thing you describe here.
To answer the OP's first question, you can do it either way. General raw materials for common items should be easily available in any simple village. Feathers and wood for arrows, leather hides for leathery armors, maybe even metals for other armor or weapons, etc. The Craft skill gives explicit detail on the cost of the materials (1/3 the sale price if you roll perfectly, more if you have some failed rolls that cause you to destroy materials along the way).
It's also true that many materials can be found just by looking for them. Survival checks may be perfect for foraging for available materials. Other materials, like metal or gems, may require different profession checks (like Profession Mining). In many cases, just buying the materials is often easier and faster (you don't think Paizo has its own tree farms from which they harvest their own wood to make paper to make their books, do you?)
But either way is fine.
B) Usually 8 hours crafting time is standard, 4 hours if you add (EDIT:!!) 10 to the DC for the craft. So you could have just made 65 arrows in 8 hours, or ... idk how many in 4
I believe you are correct, though the RAW is curiously silent on this. However, other types of crafting, such as crafting magic items, explicitly specify 8 hour workdays, so we can easily extrapolate from that.
C) Profession bowyer is the skill to SELL the two products not to MAKE them.
Quite wrong.
You'll note that under the Craft skill, it lists a handful of examples, such as alchemy, armor, clothing, bows, glass, weapons, etc., and it states that craft skills produce goods. Furthermore, it explicitly states that a skilled craftsman can earn a weekly wage equal to a skill check divided by 2 (d20 + appropriate Craft skill, divide by 2 = weekly gp income).
Under the Profession skill, it lists different examples such as architect, fisherman, librarian, innkeeper, etc., and it specifically states that professions earn their living in ways that don't direclty create goods. The profession skill also earns the same weekly gold as crafting, one weekly skill check divided by 2 = gp earned.
8 hours?! This means when you do a check for a week it's a 40h weeks work?
I thought this was a in spare down time, a few hours a day. Did I miss some raw?
Actually, I believe it is a 56 hour work-week. Our medieval man worked long weeks; we have it very good in today's world.
As for the RAW, it says your daily progress is equal to your weekly progress divided by "the number of days in a week". It doesn't say "work-week", so since a standard week is 7 days, you would take your weekly progress and divide by 7 (which you did in your original post anyway). Which means the week is a 7-day work week.
Though of course, nothing stops a DM from interpreting these rules as implying that you should divide by the work-week instead of the week, if your game world is such that the two are different.
By the RAW, you can make check result x 12 sp worth of normal arrows per week. Since 20 arrows cost 10 sp, each arrow is worth .5 sp, so that's check result x 24 arrows per week. As long as your check modifier is at least a +2, you can "take 10" on the check (assuming that you're in a non-threatening environment taking a bit of care, see pg. 86) and automatically succeed, making 12 x 24 = 288 arrows per week or 41 arrows per day of dedicated work.
You can extrapolate from magic item creation rules (specifically, the line on pg. 549: "If the character is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he only nets 2 hours' worth of work.") and apply a similar restriction to the Craft skill. In this case, assuming the same +2 check modifier, the character can make 5 arrows per day while adventuring.
Considering how long it takes to make anything except the simplest and least expensive items using the Craft skill under the RAW (check result x DC in silver pieces per week), this is something that often gets house-ruled. For instance, a character with a Craft (Bowmaking) check modifier of +10, making a masterwork composite longbow with a +2 Str rating (300 gp for masterwork and 300 gp for the composite longbow with +2 Str rating) and taking 10 on the skill check, will need over 15 weeks of dedicated work to make the bow.
20 (check) x 20 (masterwork) = 400 sp = 40 gp per week or 7.5 weeks
20 (check) x 19 (bow) = 380 sp = 38 gp per week or 7.89 weeks
The two most common house rules I've seen on the Craft skill are to use the check result x DC in sp per day instead of per week or to use check result x DC gold pieces per week to determine progress.
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Considering how long it takes to make anything except the simplest and least expensive items using the Craft skill under the RAW (check result x DC in silver pieces per week), this is something that often gets house-ruled. For instance, a character with a Craft (Bowmaking) check modifier of +10, making a masterwork composite longbow with a +2 Str rating (300 gp for masterwork and 300 gp for the composite longbow with +2 Str rating) and taking 10 on the skill check, will need over 15 weeks of dedicated work to make the bow.
20 (check) x 20 (masterwork) = 400 sp = 40 gp per week or 7.5 weeks
20 (check) x 19 (bow) = 380 sp = 38 gp per week or 7.89 weeksThe two most common house rules I've seen on the Craft skill are to use the check result x DC in sp per day instead of per week or to use check result x DC gold pieces per week to determine progress.
The problem with the craft system is that it is trying to balance two decidedly different economies. First is the silver based economy of the average level 2 expert in town crafting arrows to put food on the table. The second is the level 15 ranger, with platinum literally coming out his eyeballs. And while yes, skill ranks cover this to a point, but coming up with a multiplier that balances both scenarios, especially given that the ranger's skill will continue to increase while his costs (masterwork) will not, becomes exceedingly difficult.
House rules like those above bring the PC crafting into line with what is acceptable, but would have the level 2 expert quickly become the land baron of his local hamlet. I suppose, from a PCs perspective, NPC craft time and profit margins hardly matter, so this may all just be moot. But I also suppose that such considerations are likely why crafting rules have been griped about for years, and still not seen any appreciable change.
Here's a houserule that doesn't turn a common expert into Rockeffeller, but allows for excellent crafters to make expensive things before they die of old age:
First, any crafter can use the existing rules (and might choose to do so if their skill is fairly low, rather than run a higher risk of ruining raw materials). If the GP sale price is 1 or 2 digits (i.e. <100 GP) use the rules presented. If the GP sale price is 3 or 4 digits, use the same rules but make all calculations based on GP rather than SP AND raise the DC by +5. If the GP sale price is 5+ digits (i.e. 10,000 GP or higher) then make all calculations based on PP rather than SP AND raise the DC by +10.
This means it can still be quite a long time to craft expensive poisons, but it won't take a whole lifetime. Full Plate, or other epxensive masterwork weapons or armor can be made rather quickly (possibly too quickly in some cases) but it's workable for a game system. And for those lowbie commoners with really low craft skills, they can always play it by RAW, take their time, without raising the DC and risking financial loss.
The problem with the craft system is that it is trying to balance two decidedly different economies.Considering how long it takes to make anything except the simplest and least expensive items using the Craft skill under the RAW (check result x DC in silver pieces per week), this is something that often gets house-ruled. For instance, a character with a Craft (Bowmaking) check modifier of +10, making a masterwork composite longbow with a +2 Str rating (300 gp for masterwork and 300 gp for the composite longbow with +2 Str rating) and taking 10 on the skill check, will need over 15 weeks of dedicated work to make the bow.
20 (check) x 20 (masterwork) = 400 sp = 40 gp per week or 7.5 weeks
20 (check) x 19 (bow) = 380 sp = 38 gp per week or 7.89 weeksThe two most common house rules I've seen on the Craft skill are to use the check result x DC in sp per day instead of per week or to use check result x DC gold pieces per week to determine progress.
That's one way to look at it. Another way is to rebalance the prices so that there's only one economy.
Seriously, a lot of prices, even of "normal" items like some weapons (i.e., bows, falchion, etc.) and most armor are already out of whack. Add in the inflationary costs for masterwork, special materials, magic, etc. and you've got a "low-end" +1 alchemical silver heavy mace (2,402 gp) that costs more than the average tradesman (not even a commoner) could earn in 6 years (expert NPC class, 12 or 13 in Wis, and Profession 1 grants a +5 check modifier; taking 10 gives a 15 check result for 7.5 gp earned per week). "High-end" items can literally be worth entire (small) kingdoms.
Unfortunately, the rebalancing would require a lot of work and most of the rules for masterwork items, special materials, and magic item creation would have to be rewritten. One possible "quick and dirty" method (once the suspect "normal" item costs are changed) is to reduce the masterwork component costs by a factor of 5 (30 gp for masterwork armor, 60 gp for masterwork weapon), the cost of adamantine and mithral by a factor of 10, and change the magic item creation costs from a geometric progression to a linear one (i.e., spell level + caster level or bonus + bonus instead of spell level x caster level or bonus x bonus) while reducing the base price multiplier by a factor of 10. The costs of adamantine, mithral, and alchemical silver for weapons will probably need some adjusting (say +2/+10/+20/+40 for alchemical silver, +5/+20/+40/+80 for mithral, and +15/+60/+120/+180 for adamantine ammunition/light/one-handed/two-handed). The mace above would cost 400 (weapon enhancement) + 60 (masterwork) + 20 (alchemical silver) + 12 (mace) = 492 gp using this system.
Starting Wealth, Wealth By Level, Treasure Values Per Encounter, etc. will also need to be adjusted to reflect the lower absolute amounts required.
The problem with the craft system is that it is trying to balance two decidedly different economies.
The root problem with Craft is that the system bases crafting times on item cost. This was a silly decision from the get go, and that it's survived from 3.0 all the way to today as part of the core rules is even sillier.
3 months to make a proper composite bow is not out of the ordinary. I have special ordered traditional wooden bows and they have taken that long to manufacture. The thing has to spend multiple weeks just drying, and you have to layer the enamels. Bows are one of the things that get out of line with current crafting ruls though, because of the added mundane cost of adding the strength multiplier significantly increases cost but realistically should not increase crafting time significantly. Likewise, poisons are cost against magic items, which use a different set of crafting rules, so they are out of line.
Despite what most people may think, the crafting times for most items in the current system are pretty accurate. I have gone into it in the past. I don't like the system because it correlates cost to crafting times, but the accuracy is good enough most of the time. Any replacement systems I have seen either break the mundane economy or are too unwieldy to see gametime outside small groups.
As a note, 400 arrows a week is quite a realistic number for someone working full time. 5 arrows a day while doing other things is also very realistic, but if you know what you are doing you can probably pump out 10-20 in 2 hours. If you had to forge tips though, your looking at it taking a lot more time, so I guess this is where it depends on what raw materials you are starting with.
And as for the costs of items being out of line... There is a reason they are rare and commoners don't have them. I have seen the numbers done before and found everything quite reasonably priced and realisitic. The old wizards boards had some really in depth stuff on it. If a +1 magical item was cheap, commoners would buy magical tools. After all, they would then make money faster (+2 masterwork +1 magical results in a +3 to their weekly check. This results in 3 extra gold a week with a DC 10 item. 150 extra gold a year, that 1150 they spent for it is paid in 6-7 years.) People spend more for worse returns, just look at solar pannels. They are a worthwhile investment for anyone who can save up the money required to make the initial purchase. Now, I have heard the arguement that they cost so much that people would never pay multiple years gross income for them, but I have to say, if I wanted a nice car it would cost more than a year of my income after taxes, housing, and food. A masterwork shovel is a luxery item in line with a new car, you get one when you can afford it, and save up to try to get one. If I was a nobel had serfs on my land, I would probably buy masterwork stuff for just the +2 bonus for them, that way I increase their production and make more in taxes. If I take 1/3 of what they make (a low tax level in some areas in medieval times), then I make 1 gold extra a week and still pay for the tool in 3 years.
How about bows? What would the DC be to make a bow out of several special materials?
How about all special materials?
unless it's a double weapon, normally you can not make an item from more then one special material.
You can only gain the benefits of one special material (and thus you only pay/adjust the cost to make it for one), though nothing stops you from flavoring it that you inlay your darkwood longbow with rings of reinforcing adamantine and mithral.
