When creating any magic item you never roll if the "take 10" rule results in an automatic success, since there are no exceptional success results for rolling high.
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Ran into a bit of trouble with this. Hadn't paid any attention to the mechanic for this as it hadn't come up before, but then one of my players, a cleric,began scribing last night and fumbled. That got us all reading the fine print, which led to the 'cursed item' table, which the scroll was. The problem is that now all of the players know its cursed, which is a little bit of a metagame challenge, made far worse by the fact that it was intended to be a 'stabilize' scroll:)
So, my question is how do other DMs resolve this? I don't like taking away rolls from my players, but this system seems designed to work best 'behind the screen', with the player not really knowing the outcome until the scroll (or whatever) is used.
I don't get why people get all up in arms about DMs making rolls for them. There are some things that you simply won't know if you succeeded or failed on (unless of course the cleric has a standard practice of reviewing each spell he's made w/ spellcraft to ensure proper creation--if that's even possible). Basically, characters aren't going to assume they've failed at task in which they are proficient. A mechanic doesn't replace a part thinking "man I probably screwed the pooch on this one!" Trap rolls, bluff rolls, linguistic rolls, single-use item creation rolls, etc. are pefectly justifiable to be rolled behind the screen. In the case of this scroll, you might just throw it out as a freebie and let your players know that you'll be making rolls on things like this in the future. Hell if you don't like taking rolls away from your players get a yatzee cup, have them shake it and put it down on the table, then slide it over and view the results--they still rolled it but don't know the result. Problem solved!
When creating any magic item you never roll if the "take 10" rule results in an automatic success, since there are no exceptional success results for rolling high.
There is, however, a penalty to failure. Or is that "take 20"? I can never keep the details straight.
Assuming he couldn't take 10 for one reason or another, though, I'd say it depends. Do you hide any other rolls, like Sense Motive or Perception (or, in fact, Stealth or Bluff)? If so, definitely hide this one. If not, then if your group is mature enough to avoid metagaming, let them see the rolls.By the way, there clearly is an exceptional success result, since it's possible to fumble.
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When creating any magic item you never roll if the "take 10" rule results in an automatic success, since there are no exceptional success results for rolling high.
I would think the fact that a failed scroll could have potential combat ramifications (as well as the possibility for lost gp in materials) that taking 10 would not be possible.
How crappy is his skill check if he is failing by 5 on a DC6 check? He can't even make the check untrained, so its imposible for him to create a cursed lvl 0 scroll, since he is guarantted a +4 with 1 point in spellcraft. You don't auto-fail skill checks on a roll of 1.
Also, you can take 10 on craft checks. Even though there is a chance of failure, this only prevents taking 20. You can take 10 on any skill check you are not pressed for time. Presumably you are not crafting in combat.
edit: if you keep spellcraft higher than your lvl -6, you can never fail to make a scroll, assuming you are not rushing, upping the DC. taking 10, + the 1 point and 3 for class skill, minus the base DC of 5, you can be guaranteed to craft lvl 5 scrolls with 1 point in the skill and no int bonus.
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How crappy is his skill check if he is failing by 5 on a DC6 check? He can't even make the check untrained, so its imposible for him to create a cursed lvl 0 scroll, since he is guarantted a +4 with 1 point in spellcraft. You don't auto-fail skill checks on a roll of 1.
Also, you can take 10 on craft checks. Even though there is a chance of failure, this only prevents taking 20. You can take 10 on any skill check you are not pressed for time. Presumably you are not crafting in combat.
That's true, I forgot that there's no auto-success/failure on skill checks...just attacks and saves.
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If I'm not taking 10 on the check, I want my DM to know that way I won't know if it's cursed or not. I like the DM to roll some of my skill checks so I don't have to worry about meta gaming that stuff.
A lot of people use the DC base 10 from the feat section. Was that errated in this latest round anyway? I don't know if I saw it clarified which was right.
If I'm not taking 10 on the check, I want my DM to know that way I won't know if it's cursed or not. I like the DM to roll some of my skill checks so I don't have to worry about meta gaming that stuff.
A lot of people use the DC base 10 from the feat section. Was that errated in this latest round anyway? I don't know if I saw it clarified which was right.
I can't find anywhere in the PRD where it says the DC base is 10 + caster level. It does, however, have places that say 5. You can increase your speed by increasing it by 5, which is probably why most people use 10. Its practically impossible to fail while not rushing. You can bypass the prereqs for an additional +5 each, but not on a scroll since it is spell completion.
How crappy is his skill check if he is failing by 5 on a DC6 check? He can't even make the check untrained, so its imposible for him to create a cursed lvl 0 scroll, since he is guarantted a +4 with 1 point in spellcraft. You don't auto-fail skill checks on a roll of 1.
Also, you can take 10 on craft checks. Even though there is a chance of failure, this only prevents taking 20. You can take 10 on any skill check you are not pressed for time. Presumably you are not crafting in combat.
edit: if you keep spellcraft higher than your lvl -6, you can never fail to make a scroll, assuming you are not rushing, upping the DC. taking 10, + the 1 point and 3 for class skill, minus the base DC of 5, you can be guaranteed to craft lvl 5 scrolls with 1 point in the skill and no int bonus.
Maybe he has a poor Int? He probably only has a rank or two in it, so saying he has a 7 Int, and 1 rank...that's only a +2. If he fumbles (since it's a skill check, that must just refer to the roll itself), that's only a 3. If he was rushed, that's an easy failure.
And since failure could result in something life-threatening, you cannot take 10. This isn't just a Craft check.
We've gotten off-track, though. We're talking about whether he can hide the rolls, not whether failing the roll is possible.
And since failure could result in something life-threatening, you cannot take 10. This isn't just a Craft check.
You can take 10 on a climb check over 1000 ft pit upsidedown. As long as you are not pressured or distracted, you can take 10. It is not specifically prevented like it is for disable device, and making a cursed magic item has less negative effect than many other skills that you can take 10 on, including the one used as an example in the book.
If he has a negative int mod, he still needs to have been intentionally rushing to fail the check enough to create a cursed item.... He would need a 3 int to even fail the check rushing and taking 10.
Also, is the GM going to keep track of that cursed scroll on the player's character sheet for all the time the player has it? It could be years in real life before that scroll gets used. Its far easier to request the player not metagame and write down that 1 of his scrolls is cursed, and then he rolls a die to randomly determine if the scroll of stabalize he grabs this time is the cursed one. Requesting a player not metagame should be something the GM can use for something as trivial as this.
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I can't find anywhere in the PRD where it says the DC base is 10 + caster level. It does, however, have places that say 5. You can increase your speed by increasing it by 5, which is probably why most people use 10. Its practically impossible to fail while not rushing. You can bypass the prereqs for an additional +5 each, but not on a scroll since it is spell completion.
The section in the beginning of the feat chapter in the Core Rulebook says the DC is base 10. There have been a few posts by the In-Charges that the base 5 in the Magic Item Creation section is correct...
...though I can't provide a link :(
I can't find anywhere in the PRD where it says the DC base is 10 + caster level. It does, however, have places that say 5. You can increase your speed by increasing it by 5, which is probably why most people use 10. Its practically impossible to fail while not rushing. You can bypass the prereqs for an additional +5 each, but not on a scroll since it is spell completion.The section in the beginning of the feat chapter in the Core Rulebook says the DC is base 10. There have been a few posts by the In-Charges that the base 5 in the Magic Item Creation section is correct...
...though I can't provide a link :(
I see it now. They haven't fixed it in the prd yet, so no errata. I seem to remember the 5 being the number they confirmed too.
Jason Bulmahn confirmed that the base DC is 5 (not 10):
His post is right here.
Although, he did say he believes it is so and he's looking into it, which leves room for it to go the other way, but I can't find any more recent reference to overturn his confirmation here, so it looks like, for now, this stands as official word.
As to the OP's original question, "Who rolls?", the answer can vary from table to table.
A good player could sit there with a cursed Scroll of Stabilize, knowing full well that when someone is dying and they need this scroll, it's simply going to turn their hair green while they keep dying. And this good player will happily whip out the scroll when his character would want to save a dying ally, and roleplay his horror at watching his now-green-haired ally die anyway.
A good player can do all that and still laugh and joke about how things worked out.
However, my take is that it's the DM's job to provide full immersion for the players. Sometimes, this means to be the keeper of secrets. We've all seen the movie The Sixth Sense, right? How much would that movie have been ruined if the director had shown us the ending at the beginning of the movie? We could be good moviegoers and sit there, knowing full well what was going on the whole time, but the movie would not have had nearly the impact on us, nor would it have been nearly so memorable. In fact, it would probably have been downright lame.
In the case of The Sixth Sense, the director did a great job by keeping the secret, saving the "big reveal" until it was time for it to be revealed.
I believe that is is one of the DM's jobs to do the same thing. Keep the secrets. Save the surprise for the "big reveal" where it belongs. I believe this makes the game more interesting for all the players. I fully believe this when I am a player too, so this isn't just a one-sided viewpoint - regardless of which side of the DM screen I am sitting on, I want the DM to know the secrets that my PC, or my players' PCs, can't possibly know, and I don't want to be burdened (or to burden my players) with the need to pretend they don't know something or with the loss of excitement that happens when they know the "big reveal" before it gets revealed.
Long story short, whenever a roll happens that the PC could not possibly know the outcome at the time the roll is made, I believe the DM should make that roll.
However, there is a downside. If you, the DM, had rolled that cursed Scroll of Stabilize, and a month later some PC died with green hair, some of the players might accuse you of fudging the roll on purpose for "drama" or because you didn't like that guy, or whatever. Players can be like that. So if you have those kinds of players, then you might not be as successful a keeper of secrets as M. Knight Shyamalan.