Wands and Staves give me the unpleasant feelings in my naughty parts.
The problem I have with wands is that if you are dealing with multiple wands in your game, it becomes a constant stream of, "Did you mark off another use of wand 8 through 12?" Archers love my game because for the most part, as long as they have ranks in survival I just gloss over the arrow use as them replacing them on their own time.
One suggestion that was thrown out for wands was to have them switch to 3 uses per day, rather than the 50 charges. Just wondering if people feel that would be too powerful/weak, and what they feel the price should shift to in order to buy one with the new use per day dynamic.
Staves never get used in my game. I honestly cannot remember the last PC that decided that they would take one/want one, due to the high cost and limited use, which is sad because they are common in fantasy literature. Anyone have suggestions for how to make them a bit more attractive?
Thanks in advance.
Wands and Staves give me the unpleasant feelings in my naughty parts.
The problem I have with wands is that if you are dealing with multiple wands in your game, it becomes a constant stream of, "Did you mark off another use of wand 8 through 12?" Archers love my game because for the most part, as long as they have ranks in survival I just gloss over the arrow use as them replacing them on their own time.
One suggestion that was thrown out for wands was to have them switch to 3 uses per day, rather than the 50 charges. Just wondering if people feel that would be too powerful/weak, and what they feel the price should shift to in order to buy one with the new use per day dynamic.
Staves never get used in my game. I honestly cannot remember the last PC that decided that they would take one/want one, due to the high cost and limited use, which is sad because they are common in fantasy literature. Anyone have suggestions for how to make them a bit more attractive?
Thanks in advance.
Wands have 50 charges. Is it really so hard to remember to mark them off? In combat, someone says, "I'm using my wand of xyz," marks off a charge, then resolves it. Out of combat, same deal.
Switching to 3 uses/day is something that the old eternal wands did, in Eberron. But if people can't remember to mark off charges, can they remember the number of uses per day? Also, at low levels in particular wands can be useful. Can you say wand of cure light wounds? Changing that to a per-day basis can impact the staying power of the party depending on the party make-up.
As for staves, people realize that these can be recharged, right? And that the spells in a stave get to go off at your caster level and with all the trimmings? Our party hasn't used any staves, of which several have passed by, but that's more due to the exact list of spells in them when the first few were found. When the only arcane spellcaster in the party is 8th level and an arcane archer and the party is 16th, a staff isn't all that handy.
It seems to me that the playstyle of your group needs to be accounted for as well. If you're in a campaign that's combat-light, wands and staves aren't all that useful, for example.
Thanks for taking the time to post, I appreciate it.
Wands have 50 charges. Is it really so hard to remember to mark them off? In combat, someone says, "I'm using my wand of xyz," marks off a charge, then resolves it. Out of combat, same deal.
I play solely by PBeM/PBP now. The good players do that without me needing to remind them. The poor ones need constant reminders and honestly I am tired of chasing them down. It is not hard at all, but at times it becomes yet another accounting chore to go along with the myriad of other chores connected with running a game.
My hope is to find a balance between the utility of as many charges as you want vs. the eternal wand.
Switching to 3 uses/day is something that the old eternal wands did, in Eberron. But if people can't remember to mark off charges, can they remember the number of uses per day? Also, at low levels in particular wands can be useful. Can you say wand of cure light wounds? Changing that to a per-day basis can impact the staying power of the party depending on the party make-up.
It is easier for me to go back over an in-game's day worth of posting to see how many charges have been used, then going back over the lifetime of a wand counting off charges.
I would feel that it does affect the ability to drop 43 heals in quick succession, but would imagine that would be countered by the fact that years later they would still have the same wand in their possession just as useful as it was on the day that they bought it.
As for staves, people realize that these can be recharged, right? And that the spells in a stave get to go off at your caster level and with all the trimmings? Our party hasn't used any staves, of which several have passed by, but that's more due to the exact list of spells in them when the first few were found. When the only arcane spellcaster in the party is 8th level and an arcane archer and the party is 16th, a staff isn't...
They do indeed x2.
That is still not luring them to toss 18k on a staff that increases their ability to charm.
Even the sole NPC that I gave a 30k staff to is considering selling it to buy just about anything else that would provide more versatility : )
I don't see anything game unbalancing in simplifying these rules for your game.
Eternal wands seemed to work OK in 3.5. 3/day should work OK I think.
As for Staves - what if you work them like wands? 3/day except you use your own caster level?
Recharging staves is difficult in Pathfinder, with 3/day you remove that difficulty but place a greater limitation on how often they can be used at one time. I don't think that should cause you any great problems either.
However, I wouldn't reduce the cost of staves. You don't want your party casters running around with a haversack full of 'em. Casting per day limitations is an important part of the balance of the game.
I play solely by PBeM/PBP now. The good players do that without me needing to remind them. The poor ones need constant reminders and honestly I am tired of chasing them down. It is not hard at all, but at times it becomes yet another accounting chore to go along with the myriad of other chores connected with running a game.My hope is to find a balance between the utility of as many charges as you want vs. the eternal wand.
Ah, I see. This puts things in a different light.
It is easier for me to go back over an in-game's day worth of posting to see how many charges have been used, then going back over the lifetime of a wand counting off charges.I would feel that it does affect the ability to drop 43 heals in quick succession, but would imagine that would be countered by the fact that years later they would still have the same wand in their possession just as useful as it was on the day that they bought it.
What I was thinking about is that at lower levels a party that's light on healing can really benefit from a normal wand of cure light wounds. At higher levels, the low caster level of a wand makes them not as useful. Sure, it may seem nice to have a wand of cure light wounds 3/day, but at higher levels, if you go down, you are likely to be dead, not dying or disable, rendering it moot. And that 1d8+1 won't cut it when you take 20-30 points of damage per hit.
Also, if you somehow end up with wands that are still useful at higher levels, say due to the wands holding spells that don't have saves or SR to deal with, it's now bookkeeping of another sort, because now you need to know what spells the party will have available at the drop of a hat. But I agree with Treantmonk, this change doesn't really hurt anything overall.
As for staves, people realize that these can be recharged, right?
They do indeed x2.That is still not luring them to toss 18k on a staff that increases their ability to charm.
Even the sole NPC that I gave a 30k staff to is considering selling it to buy just about anything else that would provide more versatility : )
How useful a staff is also based on the spells in it and the nature of the caster using the staff. My group doesn't use lots of charm spells; too many critters historically are immune to mind-affecting magic, and the adjudication of these spells can cause headaches for our GM, who doesn't need more than we already give her. So for us, a staff of charming isn't that great (though we got one last session and the sorcerer is keeping it). Now the sorcerer is happy, he didn't know the spells in the staff, it's therefore giving him flexibility. It's also an option to make some new staves with spells in them that suit your group better. But they don't need their price dropped. After all, a staff that is at 0 charges can still be recharged, so staves are already in effect limited the way you'd like to alter wands. And since staves always hold multiple spells, they'd risk becoming far too common in the hands of spellcasters, which in turn makes them a lot less special.
Danke for taking the time to drop by and post. *bow*
I don't see anything game unbalancing in simplifying these rules for your game.
Eternal wands seemed to work OK in 3.5. 3/day should work OK I think.
Would you be of the mindset that an eternal wand would be available at the same price of the regular 50x charge wand?
To me an unlimited, but restricted to uses, wand is an amazing upgrade. It gives me permission to use it constantly without worrying about not having enough for weeks down the line, since I am only keeping in mind the daily usage. I would easily pay 2-3x as much for such a wand, especially considering that I know I won't have to replace it later.
For others there are grumblings, since they only see the power loss in not being able to fire off a tonne of heals in quick succession. The idea of paying more for a wand that has lost some of its appeal would be ridiculous for them.
With both sides teetering I have settled for 3/day, but not increasing the price. Just wondering if someone else has a particularly sexy argument that would sway me to one side or the other.
As for Staves - what if you work them like wands? 3/day except you use your own caster level?
Recharging staves is difficult in Pathfinder, with 3/day you remove that difficulty but place a greater limitation on how often they can be used at one time. I don't think that should cause you any great problems either.
However, I wouldn't reduce the cost of staves. You don't want your party casters running around with a haversack full of 'em. Casting per day limitations is an important part of the balance of the game.
When you say 3/day, are you meaning any of the uses up to the 3/day? or each spell?
The former sounds really good to me, since it would ignore the whole charge thing, and give some functionality to the stave without making it over powered.
My playstyle as a DM does not lend itself well to recharging in my games, I tend to want to send PCs to bed spent of all spells and afraid.
Good advice on the price point, I will keep it in mind.
What I was thinking about is that at lower levels a party that's light on healing can really benefit from a normal wand of cure light wounds. At higher levels, the low caster level of a wand makes them not as useful. Sure, it may seem nice to have a wand of cure light wounds 3/day, but at higher levels, if you go down, you are likely to be dead, not dying or disable, rendering it moot. And that 1d8+1 won't cut it when you take 20-30 points of damage per hit.
Good points all.
I agree that in a party with limited healing a charge wand might be the difference between living and dying, since it could save the day.
PBeM/PBP is generally overflowing with players. Though it moves at a snail's pace compared to tabletop, the issue is generally restricting how many people there are in the group, rather than having to worry about not having enough people.
If the group gets too small, I take on the role of party healer with a cleric that's mean, and bites people in the night.
Also, if you somehow end up with wands that are still useful at higher levels, say due to the wands holding spells that don't have saves or SR to deal with, it's now bookkeeping of another sort, because now you need to know what spells the party will have available at the drop of a hat. But I agree with Treantmonk, this change doesn't really hurt anything overall.
My 10th level rogue is a wand junky for the power that comes from versatility of having a feather fall want on him. Not sure if I would be pulling out a lot of wands in combat at that level (maybe grease or entangle), but I can see him needing those wands forever.
I see your point though : )
How useful a staff is also based on the spells in it and the nature of the caster using the staff. My group doesn't use lots of charm spells; too many critters historically are immune to mind-affecting magic, and the adjudication of these spells can cause headaches for our GM, who doesn't need more than we already give her. So for us, a staff of charming isn't that great (though we got one last session and the sorcerer is keeping it). Now the sorcerer is happy, he didn't know the spells in the staff, it's therefore giving him flexibility. It's also an option to make some new staves with spells in them that suit your group better. But they don't need their price dropped. After all, a staff that is at 0 charges can still be recharged, so staves are already in effect limited the way you'd like to alter wands. And since staves always hold multiple spells, they'd risk becoming far too common in the hands of spellcasters, which in turn makes them a lot less special.
My way of thinking about staves is they should be on the panultimate wish list for all spellcasters, when they can finally afford them.
When a staff is lying on a dragon's hoard, I want the wizard and cleric to be elbowing each other and stepping on nun's throats to be the first to grab it.
Right now they look at it and know that it is worth serious coinage if they flip it, so they can buy something fun.
My way of thinking about staves is they should be on the panultimate wish list for all spellcasters, when they can finally afford them.When a staff is lying on a dragon's hoard, I want the wizard and cleric to be elbowing each other and stepping on nun's throats to be the first to grab it.
Right now they look at it and know that it is worth serious coinage if they flip it, so they can buy something fun.
Well, staves DO that. Unfortunately, they're called staves of power or the magi. Which have rather high price tags. Clerics don't get much love here, as there are only 2 staves that all clerics can use all the functions on: staves of healing and life, which are hardly glamorous. Hence the need for some new staves.
Also, a staff of charming, or frost, or fire isn't that expensive, so if those are the staves the party sees, I think they can be forgiven for their desire to sell them. After all, the truly powerful staves hold truly powerful spells, right?
I like how you think of staves. To go back to your original post, you might consider doing things like giving all staves the Spell Penetration feat, or Spell Focus. Anytime you use one of those spells in the staff, it benefits. You can make them more powerful and say that the wielder gets these feats, regardless if he's using the staff or his own spells. Metamagic feats might work well in this regard as well.
What I'd do for the most utility is use the eternal wands from Eberron in combination with the wand wrap from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.
Wand Wrap is this little bit of magical braid or trim that's meant to be wrapped around a wand or staff. It has charges in it like a wand, and when a wand wrapped with it is used, the charges are drawn from the wrap rather than the wand itself.
With this scenario the wizard can have a little case of assorted wands and basically an extra magazine he can clip into them and reload.
You could do a similar bit with staves by having finials that could be swapped in and out. That way every wizard could have his trusty staff which has always been his trusty staff but able to change its power just by swapping out the decorative bit at the top.
Would you be of the mindset that an eternal wand would be available at the same price of the regular 50x charge wand?
Yes.
When you say 3/day, are you meaning any of the uses up to the 3/day?
Yes.
or each spell?
Oh...God no.