|
To preface this thread: I don't want a discussion of the meaning of alignments, or whether an alignment-free system is a good idea.
What I do want is help identifying all the points where the system has attributed a mechanical meaning to alignment.
The following is what I have so far:
Alignment-restricted classes: Paladin, Monk, Barbarian, Druid, Assassin
Spells: Detect Alignment, Protection from Alignment, Spells with an alignment tag but don't directly mechanically depend on alignment (e.g. animate dead), magic circle against alignment, hallow/unhallow, ...
Class Abilities: Paladin, Paladin, Paladin... Cleric
Weapon Enhancements: Holy, unholy, axiomatic, anarchic
I can easily enough just thumb through the obvious holy/unholy spells, but I was hoping the good people of the forums could help point out non-obvious alignment-dependent rules/features/etc so that I can be sure to give due diligence to those as well. I'm pretty sure I got the big items already (I hope).
I'm only looking for stuff in the core line of products (ie Core, APG, GMG).
Don't forget holy avengers and sunblades, as well as talismans of pure good/ultimate evil.
Requirements for passing some of the DR.
Holy/Unholy water- Easy enough to alter:
Spirit Water
Spirit water damages undead creatures and outsiders almost as if it were acid. A flask of spirit water can be thrown as a splash weapon.
Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but to use it against an incorporeal creature, you must open the flask and pour the spirit water out onto the target. Thus, you can douse an incorporeal creature with spirit water only if you are adjacent to it. Doing so is a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A direct hit by a flask of spirit water deals 2d4 points of damage to an undead creature or an evil outsider. Each such creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of damage from the splash.
Temples to good deities often sell spirit water at cost (making no profit).
The whole alignment type of creatures and their impact on the summon series spells for divine casters.
|
Demon armor
The celestial / fiendish simple templates don't give any alignment to the templated animals / vermin, so that doesn't need to be changed, other than to no longer limit summoning neutral 'celestial' animals to good casters and neutral 'fiendish' animals to evil casters.
Spells like cloak of chaos, shield of law, unholy aura, holy aura and dictum, word of chaos, holy word and blasphemy. Hallow, unhallow, consecrate, desecrate. (One basic spell to consecrate an area to a diety or to hallow an area would be fine.)
The concept of a 'profane' bonus. A sacred bonus would be applicable whether it was sacred to Pelor or to Hextor. 'Profane' implies something that's sacriligious or counter-faith, which an item, spell or area that is holy or sacred or blessed to an evil god would manifestly not be.
Atonement could remain relevant, as a lack of alignment doesn't mean that some dieties / organizations won't have codes of conduct and that people won't be able to spectacularly fail to live up to those standards and need to 'atone.'
This is a great thread. Another thing to look at would be how removable such elements are.
The paladin may have to go, but his niche can be filled by an order of the star cavalier.
Detect alignment spells can go easily enough.
Great holy water suggestion above.
|
|
My idea for paladin was to introduce the idea of "Anathema." Basically, each deity would have a list of opposed deities and maybe one or two creature types. Followers of opposed deities would show up under "Detect Anathema" of a paladin, and Smite would work on such people/creatures.
I've got a note pad as a wiki page setup. Because of spammers I've removed editing for the most part, but it should be a decent summary of points brought up so far.
It seems like we've got most of the impacted points, so I guess this thread diverging into a combination of obscure spots and ideas for replacing mechanics is okay now :P
Thanks a bunch guys!
Great ideas, and great note pad! Very useful!
Positive and negative channeling. Sure, neutral clerics can choose either, but a good cleric is always positive and an evil cleric is always negative.
Also, you mentioned spells that were not mechanically dependant on alignment, but some ARE mechanically dependant. Protection from Evil is one.
Finally, some monsters reference alignment. Unicorns (unless the've changed in the bestiary) are one example.
|
|
I've taken note of the channel energy thing (choice or lack thereof on a per-deity basis?) I already noted "Protection from Alignment" as a spell that mechanically depends on alignment.
Monster rules (other than the obvious "aligned" subtype) is a new one though. Since I'm thinking of tying those spells to what a particular deity thinks of as "evil" (see Anathema in my previous post) it might be worth it to note certain creature's abilities act as though cast by a cleric of X deity (in the unicorn's case, probably a druidic deity).
|
|
I have no intention of removing the idea of holy/sacred/etc things, just changing the meaning to align more directly with a deity instead of with an alignment. This will likely end up allowing "evil" paladins. I figure the code of the paladin would be something assigned by the deity.
Currently it's theoretically possible to have a LN deity that's aligned with a LE deity, but that same LN deity has a paladin that is fighting the LE deity that's supposed to be the LN deity's ally.
Not having alignments quickly removes a huge source of argument, and I aim to make the variant simple enough that I don't simply shift the source. Making the code of conduct for a paladin much clearer (and deity-dependent) should also (hopefully) remove a source of argument.
Sadly I do not know which deities are opposed/allied with which in Golarion, but I generally run a homebrew setting anyway.
If I am successful in creating an alignment-less system I can hopefully encourage players to play their character rather than their alignment (which is way more interesting).
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law without the alignment factor:
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No; see text
This spell wards a creature from attacks, mental control and from summoned creatures. It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject and has three major effects.
First, the subject gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves. Both these bonuses apply against attacks made or effects created by creatures.
Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the spirit barrier effect. If the spirit barrier effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast.
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.
Arcane Material Component: A little powdered salt with which you trace a circle on the floor (or ground) around the creature to be warded.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law without the alignment factor:
** spoiler omitted **...
Great Stuff!
|
|
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law without the alignment factor:
** spoiler omitted **...
Making it effect all summoned creatures is a bit much.. even an evil caster can just start summoning non-evil creatures to get around prot from evil, but this prevents ANYTHING summoned from working.
Prot from alignment is definitely going to have to be reworked.
Maybe if I give each deity two enemy deities and two creature types (from the favored enemy list) I can say "Protection from Heresy" which gives the +2 against Anathema and prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures of the deity's specified types.
Don't forget the spells holy word, blasphemy, dictum, and word of chaos. I refer to these as "Power Word: Alignment" spells.
With this note I grouped them together on my note pad as "Power Word: Alignment."
Alignment-restricted classes: Paladin, Monk, Barbarian, Druid, Assassin
So not until this thread did I realize that the Bard no longer has to be non-lawful and I'm kind of disappointed :( On another note, from the APG the Inquisitor has a restricted-alignment and I kind of feel the Cavaliers alignment should be based off his Order and possibly even making the Oracles based off her Mystery, but that's a discussion for another thread.
I was in the process of creating a campaign without alignment, rather I made one major deity a rather distant non-active deity much like real world religion she is worshipped in her aspect as the creator.
The other god-like creatures in the setting are her servants, angel-like beings in the heavens, which in some cases are about as powerful as a demi-god / archangel and often worshipped.
Aside from that you have demons / demonlords and fallen (devils) in the underworld.
They do however not have a set alignment, the angels are perceived to be generally good and caring and many are, while demons and devils are generally cruel and violent and manipulative.
This is sort of a dualistic religion underworld / heavens, and you can still use [evil] and [good] tags to brand creatures allied with one or the other. Clerics and paladins might be branded as a servant of heaven or hell for example, but most creatures will be plainly neutral despite how saintly they act. Likewise undead might be tagged [evil] plainly because the angelic host disagrees, though the occasional undead might be a wretched cursed creature that seeks to do good despite the [evil] tag.
Likewise there might be an angel unjustly cast down by his peers, because he gifted the mortals with secrets of arcane magic to make their own fate. In such a setting arcane magic might be viewed as evil by the mainstream religion while many practitioners are infact not.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law without the alignment factor:
** spoiler omitted **...
Making it effect all summoned creatures is a bit much.. even an evil caster can just start summoning non-evil creatures to get around prot from evil, but this prevents ANYTHING summoned from working.
I'd just point out that Spirit Barrier (aka Protection from X) states:
"Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature."
It does stop natural weapons (like claw and bite attacks) but it does not stop weapons (swords, clubs, etc), ranged attacks (thrown weapons, breath weapons, etc) or magical attacks.