Hello,
My players are soon reaching epic level and we'd liek to keep playing the same characters. I am DMing it and there's no much epic magic yet, so that infamous epic feat is of no concern. Everyone is a skilled or/and martial character.
I recall epic play being a biiiiig bookkeeping hassle a few years back and would like to have your advice on how to reduce it.
Excel and an e20 idea seems like a decent idea to reduce stacking bookkeeping. How would you adjudicate the ECL of a lvX character (X>20 of course) under an e20 rules? +1/3 levels?
Also what would be the implications of e20? The differences with e25? e30? The main problem I see with that is that as their hit dice and saves stop increasing they become easy prey to monsters and stop using high DC save or die abilities, and that they stop increasing in power relatively speaking. Both are annoying problems because the party is small and has no main spellcaster.
On the other hand, stop increasing ranks, etc and changing the whole sheet on paper by erasing and rewriting a couple dozen numbers everytime someone levels would be appreciated.
Thanks.
E what?
What now?
I'm very confused. This post hurt my armored brain. When I get confused I start to C H O M P !
I assume he is referring to the e6 concept/system where its standard d20 and advancement until you hit 6th level and then from there you no longer gain levels (and all that comes with it) but instead simply gain feats. e20 would be the same concept, but stopping at 20th level.
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E what?
I have no idea what the original poster is trying to ask, but I think the E in E20, E25, etc. is analogous to E6 in that you stop gaining levels at the level stated, but you continue to gain XP and other special abilities (just not hit points, saves, etc.).
I still don't know how to answer the question, but I think that's what it's in reference to.
Damn I thought it was a pretty common term here, sorry. Yea that's exactly what I meant.
I've never heard of it until now, and still don't know what it is beyiond the very general concept posted in this thread.
Does anyone have a link to a good online reference that explains the mechanics in detail?
Also this link
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html
(Sorry I can't make the link inside a word cool thing) explains why e6 could make sense to give your game a traditional fantasy feeling and avoid a super-heroes game with elf ears and little beasties added to it.
Personally, since the revision to the rules and to the facts presented in the article, the threshold for human ability could be, with a couple compromises, around level 8 instead of 6. And since you are playing 'fantasy' your human paragon would be level 10.
Creatures above lv9 would already be epic, level 15 and 20 being more along the line of Greek legendary warriors or demi-gods. That's how we play our world demographics anyway. Hence considering e20.
The Epic player's handbook definition of 'epic' above level 20 should be taken with a grain of salt in this regard.
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Also this link
Link(Sorry I can't make the link inside a word cool thing) explains why e6 could make sense to give your game a traditional fantasy feeling and avoid a super-heroes game with elf ears and little beasties added to it.
Personally, since the revision to the rules and to the facts presented in the article, the threshold for human ability could be, with a couple compromises, around level 8 instead of 6. And since you are playing 'fantasy' your human paragon would be level 10.
Creatures above lv9 would already be epic, level 15 and 20 being more along the line of Greek legendary warriors or demi-gods. That's how we play our world demographics anyway. Hence considering e20.
The Epic player's handbook definition of 'epic' above level 20 should be taken with a grain of salt in this regard.
linkified
To link something just use:
<url=http://www.website.com>insert text here</url> but replace < and > with [ and ]
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Personally, since the revision to the rules and to the facts presented in the article, the threshold for human ability could be, with a couple compromises, around level 8 instead of 6. And since you are playing 'fantasy' your human paragon would be level 10.
I disagree. E6 works as E6 because it stops at 6 (though you could argue, especially in Pathfinder that E7 could work moderately well because of the new feat distribution. The problem with going to 8 instead of 6 is iterative attacks. At 6 only the pure melee types get iterative attacks. At 7 you'd allow melee types with a dip into non-melee classes have the same advantage, which while out of the intent of E6 isn't outrageous. At 8 suddenly every 2/3 BAB class gets iterative attacks, which really smacks the full BAB classes hard as far as their advantage goes
Creatures above lv9 would already be epic, level 15 and 20 being more along the line of Greek legendary warriors or demi-gods. That's how we play our world demographics anyway. Hence considering e20.
The Epic player's handbook definition of 'epic' above level 20 should be taken with a grain of salt in this regard.
Frankly, my personal feelings about D&D apparently don't match those of most "epic" players. To me, epic levels ARE level 20. That's the point your group is capable of taking down things mere mortals (level 1 players) wouldn't dream of fighting. Looking at the stats of most of the characters in the world, finding people with class levels above around 10 is pretty darned high to do. But to each their own; I know some people love "epic" high level 20+ play. I personally can't stand it.
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I disagree. E6 works as E6 because it stops at 6 (though you could argue, especially in Pathfinder that E7 could work moderately well because of the new feat distribution. The problem with going to 8 instead of 6 is iterative attacks. At 6 only the pure melee types get iterative attacks. At 7 you'd allow melee types with a dip into non-melee classes have the same advantage, which while out of the intent of E6 isn't outrageous. At 8 suddenly every 2/3 BAB class gets iterative attacks, which really smacks the full BAB classes hard as far as their advantage goes
I think the best way to fix that, as was suggested elsewhere on the forum (which poster did escapes me, apologies in advance) was to divorce iterative attacks from BAB. Make it a class feature.
At 6th level, the Fighter/Barbarian/Ralph Nader/Paladin gains a second attack when taking a full attack action. This attack is at a -5 penalty.
Now it doesn't matter when a cleric or rogue gets a +6 BAB. They still aren't getting that second attack, and it is solely in the domain of the classes you give it to. The only issue I see is that multiclass melees lose out as well.
Personally, since the revision to the rules and to the facts presented in the article, the threshold for human ability could be, with a couple compromises, around level 8 instead of 6. And since you are playing 'fantasy' your human paragon would be level 10.I disagree. E6 works as E6 because it stops at 6 (though you could argue, especially in Pathfinder that E7 could work moderately well because of the new feat distribution. The problem with going to 8 instead of 6 is iterative attacks. At 6 only the pure melee types get iterative attacks. At 7 you'd allow melee types with a dip into non-melee classes have the same advantage, which while out of the intent of E6 isn't outrageous. At 8 suddenly every 2/3 BAB class gets iterative attacks, which really smacks the full BAB classes hard as far as their advantage goes
Frankly, my personal feelings about D&D apparently don't match those of most "epic" players. To me, epic levels ARE level 20. That's the point your group is capable of taking down things mere mortals (level 1 players) wouldn't dream of fighting. Looking at the stats of most of the characters in the world, finding people with class levels above around 10 is pretty darned high to do. But to each their own; I know some people love "epic" high level 20+ play. I personally can't stand it.Creatures above lv9 would already be epic, level 15 and 20 being more along the line of Greek legendary warriors or demi-gods. That's how we play our world demographics anyway. Hence considering e20.
The Epic player's handbook definition of 'epic' above level 20 should be taken with a grain of salt in this regard.
Oh I was not refering to mechanics aspect up there, but to the trying to match world human limits with a d20 level aspect of E6.
Also my "personal" feeling of epic is not so personal as I take reference in the medieval French stories like Roland and so forth where the word epic apparently became so common. Or you could have it mean "clearly above human capacity" too.
I agree that it is a fine idea for handling epic play. Stop at e20. That is the last level for which you have rules. Use e6 rules from there. If I remember correctly, you gain 1 effective character level for every 5 or 6 feats gained, until you've gained 2 ECL, then it's 10 feats per 1 ECL.
Stick with that and the suggested extra feats and you should be in good shape.
I agree that it is a fine idea for handling epic play. Stop at e20. That is the last level for which you have rules. Use e6 rules from there. If I remember correctly, you gain 1 effective character level for every 5 or 6 feats gained, until you've gained 2 ECL, then it's 10 feats per 1 ECL.
Stick with that and the suggested extra feats and you should be in good shape.
Actually I've been thinking about gestalting the players at lv20. Each new level you get is a gestal level that will accompany your base class, and also add feats every 3 levels (unlike regular gestalt).
....Stuff...
If you are looking for a good way to do epic this is a great one, E20. it would allow you to just give feats for every x amount of xp.
I agree that E20 would be an effective way of handling epic play. It would certainly be saner than the Epic Level Handbook rules from 3.x. As for E25 or E30, there you have a problem of base classes ending at 20, which means you have to come up with a 5 to 10 level extension for them for those who wish to remain single class. Otherwise you end up forcing prestige/multi-classing.
The idea would be to adress the high DC of high level monsters with save or suck abilities, which most of them have in epic play. If your saving throws stay at 20, I doubt that some 10ish epic feats will be of any use against one of the CR25 save or suck stuff.
As for gestalting at 20th, again I see an issue of forcing prestige/multi-classing, and possibly more complications if you are including BAB/Saves/Skill Points for the gestalt levels as you would normally take the better of the two. This would mean keeping track of what class you took at each level. Serious extra bookkeeping that was done away with by the new rules on level drain.
I do not think it will be that hard in my current group with soem rogue/fighter stuff and some barbarian/more melee class arounds. You can figure out the forumla to gestalt say, a level of barbarian with some wizard, cleric or whatever in a couple minutes. Then every time you level up it would basically, I think, be, for the exemple of barbarian gestalting cleric:
-Ok add a +2 to your will saving throw, x nubmer of spells of this lv, and channel energy.I wouldn't keep track of every level taken. Just like ok there's 3 of rogue 11 of fighter and 6 of this PrC that can be taken only after 9th level so the first 9 gestalt levels will be added to eitehr fighter or rogue, then calculate the saving throw, attack bonus or skill increase forumla in a minute or 2 and build up from there.
I even think it's twice harder to type it and explain than to run it :p. It also adresses the saving throw issue, and with an epic feat every 2 levels, perhaps it would be ok.
The problem would be more like determining an accurate ECL for each character, it would haev to be on a case by case basis.
As a sidenote, callign post level 20 play 'epic' is kind of silly because power beyond every day's mortal imagination becomes available at around level 10, which sort of matches 'epic poems' from middle age and around lv15-20, Greek demi-gods. This 'epic' means beyond the scope of the initial rules.
After some brainstorming, we decided that the 'main ennemy' after level 20 is accumulating ridiculous max pluses that invalidate the d20 roll and the goal os to provide exciting and sustainable increase in power that do not incur maths accumulation. To reach these 2 goals and streamline things, we are going to try to use this scale that could work for up to level 40- something:
*At even levels only, add a +1 to saving throws and base attack bonus, +1 hit point withOUT constitution modifier for casters, +2hp for rogues and the like, +3hp for melee heavy classes. You gain half the skill points of the class you took, withOUT intelligence modifier.
Intelligence increase could have a retroactive effect on skill points from level 1 to 20. This stat and constitution are very important already even if they count only retroactively (+20 hp or +20 skill points every 2 points of ability score, no need to increase that amount any more at all, specially for those classes who would get 30 hp or 20 skill points per level past 21, the rules were made for con and intelligence increasing hp and skills from lv1 to 20 only, so now these amounts are fixed).
The point here is to still have saving throws and attack bonus to match higher CR monsters from 'epic' bestiaries, have your epic levels provide some extra advancement while keeping the 'main enenmy' at bay.
*At odd levels, you gain your epic feat. Some 3rd party sources like the epic handbook 'Ascencion' offer decent epic feats to replace some of the ELH clumsy feats like the metamagic handling. Epic magic is handled by the guidelines providing by paizo which give some soft linear advancement for above 9th level spells, and also by a case per case research of particular spells wanted by the players subject to GM aproval.
*You gain your class features normally (not including HP, saves, skill points). All classes advancement are supported by the normal rules past level 20, and for spellcasting, paizo provided guidelines that we will test.
*You use the best combination of all your current class levels to determine your pre lv 20 attack bonus, saving throws and skill points. I.e: If the lv20 barbarian decides to take a level of rogue for his 21st level, then:
-He will keep the attack bonus of a martial class level 20.
-The fortitude save of a lv20 martial class.
-The reflex save of a martial class lv19 and a lv1 rogue level.
-Will unchanged (both classes have low saves)
-4 extra skill points (rogue 8 per level, barbarian 4 per level) using the rogue skill list's bonuses.
Etc.
Any feedback is welcome. ECL would be a lil' tricky to determine.