Now, a few weeks ago I made a post listing that my character, after many twists and turns, would be a Natural Were-Rat Human Fighter (Golarion verison, academy trained for bonus skillpoints) and I got a few people to help me with what I should be 'starting' as.
Now, campaign is moving along swimmingly and we managed to get to almost 4th level (we started at 3rd, and at 4th level I'll finally be able to move at full speed in Medium Armor as a 3HD Fighter.) in one campaign, mostly because our Idjit Aasimar Sorcerer decided to 'bless' a graveyard in the ruined underwater Mage's Tower under the port-town of Hook Point.
Bad idea. She unleashed an understandably ticked-off Vampire who immediately attempted to drain her dry (Failed thanks to me sacrificing my 'Lucky' Silvered Dagger by ramming it into the Vampire's eye-socket) and then fled when the Party attempted to gang-up on her and fled via a pipe to the surface in gaseous form.
We come back to the surface ... and Hook Point is in an uproar. Vampire Spawn are being created en-mass to hide the Vampire, who seems to be freaking out way too much for my likings, must think we're the people who staked her in the first place, and the Good-aligned PCs are feeling the pinch of Guilt, while my own character is horrified that the Militia might come knocking on his door, and Were-Rats aren't exactly well thought of, especially ones who were present when an ancient undead evil was brought back into the world.
here's the quick and dirty of my character:
Human Form
Str) 15 (13+2 Racial)
Dex) 14
Con) 15
Int) 12
Wis) 11 (9+2 Lycan)
Cha) 10 (12-2 Lycan)
Hybrid Form
Str) 17 (13+2 Racial +2 Lycan)
Dex) 16(Dire Rat's Dexterity)
Con) 17 (14 +2 Lycan)
Int) 12
Wis) 11 (9+2 Lycan)
Cha) 10 (12-2 Lycan)
So. Natural Were-Rat Human Fighter 1/Rogue 1 (Favoured Class: Fighter: Hitpoints, Golarion 'Academy' Fighter Variant) 22 Hit-Points. Eep.
Skills: 12 Skill Ranks: Acrobatics 1+3+2(6), Bluff 2+3+0(5), Climb 1+3+2(6), Diplomacy 1+3+0+2(6), Disguise 1+3+0(4), Handle Animal 1+3+0(4), Intimidate 2+3+0+2(7), Perception 1+3+0(4), Survival 1+3+0(4) and Swim 1+3+2(6).
Feats: Power Attack, Toughness (Fighter Bonus Feat), Persuasive (Human Bonus Feat).
Gear:
Primary Melee +1 Longsword (Ribsplitter)
Secondary Melee Sap
Teritary Melee 'lucky' Silvered Dagger (missing [T_T] )
Primary Ranged Masterwork Composite Shortbow (+2)
8 normal arrows
2 Cold Iron Arrows
3 Silvered Arrows
Armor:
+1 Chain Shirt (1,100 gold)
+1 Light Wooden Shield (1,003 gold)
Misc Gear, including three spare suits of clothing, rope, everburning lantern, armor repair kit, whetstone, skin of cheap, sour wine, 4 flasks of Alchemist's Fire, Disguise Kit (5 uses remaining), map of the ruined Mage's Tower.
My share of the Treasure thus far has been 3,500 gold in items, including a pair of Bull's Strength Potions, a battered-looking Cloak of Resistance +1 and a Platinum ring with the initials 'R.Julius' engraved into the inside surface of the band. We'd've gotten more treasure but the campaign moved far faster than the DM expected and thus we're sure that we missed a few things back in the Mage's Tower, and the party is considering splitting up to comb the Mage's Tower for clues (and missed treasure) while the other half tries to pin down where the Vampire is hiding and what it is using as a temporary Coffin.
Now that we're facing a Vampire and it's Spawn (and we've failed to make the Knowledge (Religion) check to know it's specific weaknesses, and yes we all threw the Cleric dirty looks when we realised he's only got a single rank in that Knowledge tree.) without knowing that it can be hurt by magic silver weapons but we do know Holy Water and Cleric Turning Attempts will hurt it. What should my character be looking towards in the next few encounters to buy, in terms of equipment to combat this menace, under the above constraints.
I've got about 2000 in cold-hard cash that I can spend, and I'm looking to up my AC to survive another grapple attempt from the fork-fanged-femme-fatale, and I'm perfectly willing to sell my Chainmail Shirt to get my hands on a +1 Breastplate, but what things can the party do to deal with this encounter without metagaming?
We know the Vampire can be hurt by the Cleric's Turn Undead attempts.
We've learned that the Vampire Spawn can only enter buildings that they are invited to, after witnessing a particularly horrific attack on a brothel where a pair of Vampire Spawn got themselves invited in by the Owner and promptly tore out his throat and then went after the prostitutes, but they couldn't escape us or the sailors and ne'er-do-wells that chased them out into an cul-de-sack where they were pinned because they couldn't spider-climb over the walls nor ask the inhabitants to let them in.
We know that normal weapons don't seem to do jack spit against the Vampires, but my Lucky Dagger (Under the effects of a Magic Weapon potion at the time) managed to cause the Vampire Lord extreme pain when I jammed it in her eye.
We've learned that the Spawn will combust into flames when pinned until daybreak, and the smoke always seems to head south down towards the bay and towards the eastern docks, where the slums are.
How can the party follow these clues to learn how to kill the Spawn and their Vampire leader without metagaming and without gimping ourselves against 'normal' combatants, whom are currently investigating what happened to release the Vampire Lord and will inevitably be pointed in our direction!
Bah, curse the Copy-Pasta. Normal-Fighter, and I'm Fighter 1/Rogue 1, not strait out Fighter, nor the more useful Skilled/Academy Variant, and basically for the TL:DR crowd, asking what gear I should be equipping, and what courses of actions our group should be taking without metagaming the Vampire strengths and weaknesses.
We know how to kill a Vampire, but we're struggling at the moment to keep that knowledge from flowing into our new and inexperienced characters. So with the above situation, how would you *points at you* deal with this situation, playing up to the ignorance and trying to make do with what you do know?
If you were a goblin, you would know the ANSWER to all these questions: FIRE!!! ...and pitchforks.
But surely you're smarter than a goblin:
Look for a library, or a sage and ask questions...
These are reasonable things to do when confronted with "unknown" enemies.
The fact that you characters don't have the knowledge doesn't imply that no one else has it.
Look for a library, or a sage and ask questions...
These are reasonable things to do when confronted with "unknown" enemies.The fact that you characters don't have the knowledge doesn't imply that no one else has it.
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And it's in your DM's best interests (probably) to provide the answers eventually. Otherwise you'll just be mired in vampire fight after vampire fight, trying everything under the sun to get these things dead-for-good. You may have to work to get the answers (side quest!) but they should be available to you.
The clues you've gotten so far are good ones, but I don't see how anything can logically lead to the fact that a wooden stake is the final piece of the puzzle. I think you need to find yourself an expert.
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Look for a library, or a sage and ask questions...
These are reasonable things to do when confronted with "unknown" enemies.The fact that you characters don't have the knowledge doesn't imply that no one else has it.
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And it's in your DM's best interests (probably) to provide the answers eventually. Otherwise you'll just be mired in vampire fight after vampire fight, trying everything under the sun to get these things dead-for-good. You may have to work to get the answers (side quest!) but they should be available to you.
The clues you've gotten so far are good ones, but I don't see how anything can logically lead to the fact that a wooden stake is the final piece of the puzzle. I think you need to find yourself an expert.
Under the sun would work...
Now, a few weeks ago I made a post listing that my character, after many twists and turns, would be a Natural Were-Rat Human Fighter (Golarion verison, academy trained for bonus skillpoints) and I got a few people to help me with what I should be 'starting' as.
Now, campaign is moving along swimmingly and we managed to get to almost 4th level (we started at 3rd, and at 4th level I'll finally be able to move at full speed in Medium Armor as a 3HD Fighter.) in one campaign, mostly because our Idjit Aasimar Sorcerer decided to 'bless' a graveyard in the ruined underwater Mage's Tower under the port-town of Hook Point.
Bad idea. She unleashed an understandably ticked-off Vampire who immediately attempted to drain her dry (Failed thanks to me sacrificing my 'Lucky' Silvered Dagger by ramming it into the Vampire's eye-socket) and then fled when the Party attempted to gang-up on her and fled via a pipe to the surface in gaseous form.
We come back to the surface ... and Hook Point is in an uproar. Vampire Spawn are being created en-mass to hide the Vampire, who seems to be freaking out way too much for my likings, must think we're the people who staked her in the first place, and the Good-aligned PCs are feeling the pinch of Guilt, while my own character is horrified that the Militia might come knocking on his door, and Were-Rats aren't exactly well thought of, especially ones who were present when an ancient undead evil was brought back into the world.
here's the quick and dirty of my character:
** spoiler omitted **...
I would hope your cleric is not the only one in the area. Asking him(random NPC cleric) about vampires may be a way to get the information.
We were afraid of that, but as the party is desperately trying to avoid "Oh hai we let loose an ancient immortal unspeakably evil monster on the town that's cutting into everyone's profits, could you hold off on making examples of us until we kill it, m'kay?" scenario.
On the other hand, I suppose we could try and sneak into the Cathedral of Light and corner one of the Monks and get him to help us on the sly. They're not exactly full of love for the Thieves Guilds or the Merchant Cartels.
Any other options in case this falls through/rest of the party is still unwilling to risk a town-wide beat-down for letting her out in the first place?
It's not so much our Cleric is our only real expert it's just that our little group started off without very many friends. Lots of accquintances who'll help us out for a fair load of coin but not many friends. And given these Spawn have been running around and have thus far .... *double-checks notes* killed 18 people thus far, and severely interrupted Guilds' gold-flow through everyone being too scared to step outside and either spend or steal, they're sort of eager to A) kill the Vampires and B) kill whoever is responsible for the Vampires.
I can see us trying the Monks, the only Lawful Good organisation that isn't in some way tied up with either the Thieves Guilds or the Merchant Cartels, but then again they're also fundamentalist zealots who would drag us to court under some obscure by-law given the chance.
Looks like it's McGuyver time...
There. Your cleric knows how to deal with Vampires.
Or you could say "We want to buy weapons to fight these vampire things. Do you have any suggestions?" You don't have to mention that you were the ones who released them in the first place. If pressed, just say that you hate vampires. HATE THEM!
Or you could be like a monk I had once and buy everything you can get your hands on. Silver weapons. Cold iron weapons. Adamantine weapons. Bronze weapons. +1 magic weapons.
Or you could ask the local bard about stories of vampires. If I were GM, I'd have the bard tell you what you already know: throwing gobs of magic water works. Wooden stakes through the heart.
The bard might even be able to tell you the location of a sword that is especially renouned for vampire slaying, if the GM were in a generous enough mood to want your party to have it.
Rope soaked in holy water. The current grapple rules make hog tying someone brutal as it's almost impossible to undo with escape artist, but bursting through with strength is a very viable option. So get some manacles too which are much harder to break. Also, if you can make an air sealed container that can fit a whole body then the vamp won't be able to mist away when the sun kills it, and after awhile if a vamp cannot get to its resting place it dies for realz :)
Ouch, I missed the part where the Cleric failed. Umm...since you guys just leveled up if he put another point in it he should be able to retry.
No, we haven't leveled yet, but we're about to in the next encounter, probably.
Let me give you a quick run-down of Hook Point.
Small City, Alignment CE (With LG, CG, N, LE, NE and CE-aligned power-centers), minimal laws, high corruption, slavery legal, poison available on the open mark, drugs available on the open market, the City Council is basically pawns for the feuding Thieves Guilds who are in a constant battle for supremacy over the very lucrative shipping lane they control, one of the few in this homebrew that isn't in turn home to marauding Sahaguin, Skum or Merfolk or giant aquatic monsters.
Costing one of the Guilds money generally involves someone bigger, larger and meaner than you coming around and demanding restitution or they break your favourite limb. We've thus far cost the entire city something along the lines of several thousand gold and have spent a great deal of effort trying to hide this face.
People we can go to for help:
Monks of Ecuzan, Lawful Good order of zealots that believe every law must be followed to the letter to benefit society, Every law of the land is in their library, as well as some of the more obscure knowledge what few patrons they have donate. They're also quite ruthless after a few generations of trying to 'save' Hook Point.
It is quite likely we could ask one of the Monks there to give us a hand with 'how do we kill these monsters' but at the same point their attitude tends to be 'drag off to prison and redeem' since everyone in Hook Point is a 'sinner' in their eyes. Like as not we're going to have to sneak into the monastery and find the information out ourselves as these Monks are incredibly zealous and would likely throw us in prison through some ancient by-law or something similar.
Three Finger Dan, one of our main contacts, not exactly a friend but he does sell information and once the information is bought he won't sell it again for a week. We're trying to avoid letting him know since he'll sell us out (eventually) but maybe asking if he knows something as we're worried about our own necks could net us some information. Again, the problem is that no matter how we approach him, we're facing a talented information-merchant, and one of us will screw up our bluff-check somehow when we're fishing for information.
The Black Sword Gang, not exactly our firmest friends but like ourselves they're a sort of vigilante group that patrols the area right next to our own block. They might not have the knowledge we need but they're allies of a sort and they will probably be grateful for the knowledge that we do have on how to keep Vampires away from their people.
Then again they are also of the mentality "The whole city can burn so long as our territory remains safe" so maybe not.
Any of the Thieves Guilds. Have I mentioned these people really, really, really do not like it when they start to lose money? Whichever Guild we go to will end up offending the others, and thus far we've managed to avoid getting entangled in their politics simply because signing up with one Guild means the others, all twelve of them, will start to keep us out of their territories and possibly send thugs after us.
Still, we know of at least three Guilds that have powerful casters in their ranks thanks to a Knowledge (Local) check and seeing The White Hawk Guild send one man to burn down an entire building to send a message to the shop-owners of their territory that the White Hawks wouldn't stand for futile heroics means perhaps by pooling our coin we could buy some information, assuming the White Hawks in turn haven't made an alliance with the Vampire and her spawn yet!
I think, given your own vulnerabilities and the effect you saw it have on the vamp lord, you would probably surmise that silver will be an effective weapon.
Have you fought any of the spawn in the city?
If so, then you have a "legitmate" reason for asking around, to find out what kills them and their master.
If you fear that someone will give themselves away if you talk to the monks, then have only one go an see them, your best talker/face. Or pay a young teen to go and find out, letting the teen know that you need this information to help defend the block/quarter/city.
As Majuba suggested, your character definately saw a very large reaction from the vampire when you stabbed it with your silver dagger, so getting more of them would not be unreasonnable for your party.
Thank you all very much for the ideas. Looks like we (The party) have no other alternative than ye olde sage, but our Sorcerer (who has plenty of Bluff) managed to accquire a pair of Earrings with the Sending spell woven into them (not sure how those ended up in a 3-4th level treasure pile!) in our last session, so it looks like hopefully she and our Monk/Rogue will be able to wrangle some details (hopefully just the magical silver weapons and/or some of the vampire's special abilities such as Gaseous Form and their 'death cycle' etc), but anyways, party will be keeping their fingers, toes and whatever else we can manage crossed for good luck.
1) 5, 5, 3, 1 (discard the 1, 13)
2) 6, 4, 1, 4 (discard the 1, 14)
3) 1, 2, 6, 3 (discard the 1, 9)
4) 6, 2, 1, 4 (discard the 1, 12)
5) 3, 1, 4, 5 (discard the 1, 12)
6) 5, 5, 3, 3 (discard the 3, 13)
assigned scores of:
Str) 16 (12+4 racial)
Dex) 12
Con) 15 (13+2 racial)
Int) 12 (14-2 racial)
Wis) 11 (13-2 racial)
Cha) 9
I know people will be looking at the scores and going 'wut?' but I prefer a smarter character with a broader array of skill-points that can allow the character to contribute more than 'I full attack' to one that can succeed in a vary narrow niche but is useless outside of combat.
3rd level Fighter, Academy Trained (WOOOOOO!) variant so additional skill-point and ranks for the sake of my 1st bonus fighter feat. Treating it as 'Street-Trained Fither', and the trait Dirty Fighter. Feats are Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Improved Unarmed Strike (Flavour Feat) and Improved Toughness. Favoured Class bonus goes into Hitpoints, leaving me with 5 skill-ranks per level to play with.
Skills are Climb 1+3+3(7), Craft (Carpentry) 1+3+1(5), Diplomacy 2+3-1(4), Gather Information 1+3-1(3), Handle Animal 2+3-1(4), Intimidate 2+3-1+2 racial (6), Knowledge (Geography) 1+3+1(5), Ride 1+3+1(5), Sense Motive 1+3(4), Survival 1+3(4) and Swim 1+3+3(7).
Well rounded, capable of doing things outside of combat and has a nice little skill to aid him outside of combat via the Craft skill, as he is a Carpenter by trade.
Gear is, and note I've tried my best to avoid the 'metagaming bug' my group has caught here, +1 Bastard Sword, Masterwork Gauntlet, +1 Banded Mail, Masterwork Heavy Steel Shield, Vest of Resistance (as Cloak of Resistance) and assorted stuff I haven't yet gotten the DM to okay as she seems to be thinking I'm channelling McGuyver and will be able to turn toothpicks, a vial of alchemist's fire and a slingshot into a weapon capable of killing off her beloved Vampires.
Many thanks to everyone who posted. I'll keep you up-to-date on how things go on our end as soon as the next session happens!
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well, a couple of tips:
1st: things tend to burn. So, try fire. If that doesn't work, use those pitchforks, man!
2nd: Bards = Stories = potential "trial and error" vampire killing. So what if the "decapitate and leave the body at the crossroads" doesn't work? You try it once, and when it fails, try something else.
3rd: Your group needs a scapegoat. Assuming you're okay with some other chump taking the fall for your mistake, get the local Guilds pointed at some (hopefully an enemy) poor schlub as for the property damage, loss of profit, and deaths.
4th: As far as the political situation: this may be just the thing you need to crack open that guild structure. Threats / suggestions of collusion with a destructive undead menace will likely get the others' hackles up. This works well with #3, especially if you can target one of the mid-level guilds and bring down the heat of upper management on their heads.
1) Fire. What would PC's do without it? We'll certainly try dumping boiling oil or something similar on the fork-face-femme-fatale sooner or later.
2) Heh, we'll see what the Sorcerer & Reformed Assassin Monk can do with what knowledge they get from the Monks, but I'm assuming we'll get thrown at least a few red herrings along those lines, yeah, could be fun if some of them accidentally work!
3) Eh, all but myself as either LG (In the case of the Monk/Rogue hybrid) or CG (Sorcerer, bubblehead valleygirl mentality, Ranger happy-go-lucky Gnome Botanist/Bounty Hunter/Explorer, and Cleric "GET TO DE CHOPPA" Wrassling Fiend), so I doubt that'll happen. My Were-Rat was self-interested Neutral and my Half-Ogre is LN with moments of altruism and outright homicidal tendencies. Also I believe with my character getting killed off because the DM went "Oh GOD he can turn them all into furries killitoffnow!" my Were-Rat got smushed to paste, along with all his lovely gear (T-T) so I think it'll be fairly safe to say the band can be persuaded to temporarily lay the 'blame' on him if push comes to shove.
I'll be sure to laugh if he comes back to haunt them, however.
4)Eh ... there is that. But as far as I'm aware, the one thing that makes the Guilds chummy is the threat of the status quo changing dramatically. On the other hand, there are a few Guilds that we really, really loathe, involved in forced prostitution and the really bad drugs that don't just turn your brain into mush like the rest do but eventually turn you into a (barbarian) raging lunatic that can only be controlled by ever greater (and more lethal) doses of the drugs, so I think swinging this past the group, they'll happily play 'pin the tail on the BBEG' and hopefully get Evil snapping at it's own neck for a change.
At least two of the Guilds use this drug to farm up shock-troops for their Crimelords to unleash as they see fit.
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Brainstorm:
The were-rat PC gets the blame for "waking up" the Vamps, but the Bad-Guy-Guilds (drug pushers) were the motivating force for that.
It'll take a little creative work to get the ball rolling, but if you play it correctly, you may be getting paid to take out your enemies, by more enemies, while blaming those targeted for your own mistakes.
It's almost like getting paid three times.
Bonus points awarded if you can throw a Coup de Estat and take over that bad-bad guild, channeling their drug market into more socially beneficial lines...like adventuring supplies or freed halfling slaves.
No matter which way you hop, you (as I'm sure you know) need to tread carefully amongst all those vipers...it'll just get easier if you can convince the snakes their neighbors are the real threats.
(BTW, I want to play in this game, just from the short description you've provided. Kudos to DM and ya'll as players!)
Right, had a quick pow-wow with the other guys and gals, we'll try to smuggle the Monk/Rogue into temple with the Cleric wearing the other Sending earring and the rest of the party giving as much advice 'over the phone' as they can via the earrings.
We're also decided to try and put our heads together on how to try and set two of the bigger and more vicious Thieves Guilds at each other's throats by (*sobs unhappily*) placing the blame for the Vampire squarely on my deceased Were-Rat (the Cleric swears they'll try to make it up to his spirit later) as an unwitting servant of the Guilds, who are trying to crush their competitors under a wave of Undead. If nothing else, the chaos of the Guilds fighting should give us the opportunity to track down the Vampire Lord's current lair.
Current plans are we KNOW at least two of the Spawn come from one of the 'enforcer' units the Bloodgrass Guild uses to extort money from people in their territory and the other guild, the Five Star Kings, specialise in assassination and are rumoured to have a master assassin who can turn into mist and call forth swarms of bats and rats at will. This should buy us enough time, and we've gotten the DM's permission to start covertly sending out feelers into the only Neutral-aligned Thieves Guild to see if they'd be willing to 'go strait' with us.
Don't expect it to work so well but at least the group can start declaring ourselves as 'the good guys' as we try to find the people willing to stand up and try and make Hook Point a decent place to live.
Ah .... according to the DM my Half-Ogre is going to start off the game with an indentured slave in his service .... any ideas how I should be handling this?
Okay, many thanks to everyone who popped in and dropped their 2 coppers worth into the thread, you helped immensely.
Our Monk/Rogue Hybrid managed to sneak into the Monk's temple, with a bit of help from a 'borrowed' Hat of Disguise and filched some of the Scrolls from the library wing, using the Earrings of Sending to pow-wow with the group over which ones we should be looking out for. We've since learned Vampires must return to their coffins when they die, turning into fog when they do so, so our Ranger has decided to whip up some coloured smoke bombs, hoping that when the vampire spawn are about to die, we can hit them with the smoke-bombs and then follow the coloured mist back to their lairs.
We've had the good fortune in that the DM let me write up the back-story for my 'slave', whom I've written up as a five-year old Tiefling girl whom my Half-Ogre bought and is raising as his own daughter out of pity and understanding of what it's like to be a 'monster' in 'Man's world', trying to raise the money to completely buy out the contract and have her registered as a 'Person' rather than 'Property'. The more I look at Hook Point's laws the more I want to adopt a chaotic alignment and take to the whole !@#$ing place with a Barrel of Infinite Oil and a Necklace of Fireballs!
In regards to the Thieves Guilds, no real inroads have been made but our DM has started a war between several of the smaller, more ambitious Guilds and the larger, more entrenched ones. Seems to be a lot of blood in the air, and that's just making the Spawn cocky. We've killed 7 different Vampire Spawn thus far, and encountered the Master Vampire again, who thoroughily trounced us but was driven off by my character's 'daughter' running up and hitting her with a lantern. So now she's not only missing an eye, she's been burned all down her left arm to boot. She is one unhappy Bloodsucker now.
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...We've had the good fortune in that the DM let me write up the back-story for my 'slave', whom I've written up as a five-year old Tiefling girl whom my Half-Ogre bought and is raising as his own daughter out of pity and understanding of what it's like to be a 'monster' in 'Man's world', trying to raise the money to completely buy out the contract and have her registered as a 'Person' rather than 'Property'. The more I look at Hook Point's laws the more I want to adopt a chaotic alignment and take to the whole !@#$ing place with a Barrel of Infinite Oil and a Necklace of Fireballs!
In regards to the Thieves Guilds, no real inroads have been made but our DM has started a war between several of the smaller, more ambitious Guilds and the larger, more entrenched ones. Seems to be a lot of blood in the air, and that's just making the Spawn cocky. We've killed 7 different Vampire Spawn thus far, and encountered the Master Vampire again, who thoroughily trounced us but was driven off by my character's 'daughter' running up and hitting her with a lantern. So now she's not only missing an eye, she's been burned all down her left arm to boot. She is one unhappy Bloodsucker now
I see you have taken to the "if it burns, light it on fire, twice" camp of adventuring. Very successful strategy, most times.
It's heartening to hear someone of lawful bent has decided his community's laws are unjust and need to be changed.
I would definitely keep up the "political intrigue" angles and get the various guilds to fight one another. In the chaos, you can make your move with none the wiser for who started the whole mess.
To boot, if you can bluff one of them that you'll lend your backing, get them into a standoff with a slightly over-matched opponent, you can pull that backing at the crucial moment. That'll leave them off balance and likely to attack, even without your support, which will likely lead to their failure. Win, Win, Win...