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The party was attempting to get into a locked tower constructed of iron. The dwarf cleric, with the Artifice domain, decides to cast Fabricate, and use said iron to create something (a statue of a smirking dwarf), leaving a hole in one of the iron walls through which the party could enter.
Now, this seems like a sketchy use of the Fabricate spell to me, but I can't think of any reason not to allow it. Is there any sort of official ruling on this?
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Well...it's almost like if you allow it, that's going to be the last door ever to hinder your party. Not really since the cleric can only cast it once a day, but you get my meaning.
The spell feels more like it's supposed to work with raw materials, not with already in place things. It's a construction spell not a deconstruction spell.
Though there is also the much reduced effect since it'd be working with iron, a mineral, and a required craft check. Do the math and make sure it even works in the first place.
Also, no one in this party of high level characters can open a door without resorting to 5th level spells?
No, I'm not sure there is any RAW for this.
But one could argue that you convert "material" into a "product". "Material" would be unworked, raw material, and "product" would be a worked, finished item of some kind. The twoer is a product already, so it is not "material".
No, that's not explicit in the spell's description. But if we don't use strict definitions on these two words, then this spell could be used to turn a diamond into a lump of coal the size of a house, or turn a lump of coal the size of a house into a diamond. Or turn the mountain giant's colossal club into a colossal pile of feathers. Or turn a wall of a castle into a statue of a leering dwarf.
Hence, I believe the RAI that "material" means "raw material" (but not RAW "material" - pun intended) is a good safeguard against abuse of this spell.
Then again, Dimension door is 1 level lower, and teleport is the same level, and so is Passwall, any of which could have been used by a spellcaster of the same level and any of which would have bypassed this wall, so maybe we just say "Right on, dwarf! Bonus XP for being such a clever little snit!" and move on.
Then again, Dimension door is 1 level lower, and teleport is the same level, and so is Passwall, any of which could have been used by a spellcaster of the same level and any of which would have bypassed this wall, so maybe we just say "Right on, dwarf! Bonus XP for being such a clever little snit!" and move on.
I'm quoting the most important part here.
"power" wise, it's on par with similar effects.
Player wise - that's the kind of thing I *always* reward at the table, not stomp into a hole in the ground. It's clever - let it fly. Especially the part about turning the wall into a smiling dwarf ... that's brilliant!
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As others have mentioned, even if it shouldn't work, the ingenuity of it should be rewarded. I always let really clever ideas like this work once. Maybe I have to talk with the player after the fact and explain that it won't likely work again, but none the less, the creativity should be rewarded.
As for a game ruling, I would say it's situational. I'd certainly let it work on a carved tunnel. I'd never let it work on a wood plank & metal band door, or anything with folded/hammered metal. Forged, I'd be iffy on, but would tend to say no. Basically, the more "worked" it is , the less likely I'd be to allow Fabricate to work. I'd certainly let the caster take a knowledge check to figure out how likely he thinks the material is to be receptive to the spell.
I would only allow it to work, but only if the transformation would be within the ability of a mundane craftsman (and you cna make any appropriate sill checks).
Since a skilled craftsman could deconstruct/meltdown an iron door (or portion thereof) and make a stature out of it, I would allow for it.
This at the very least, prevents weird stuff like the coal/diamond transformation, which is impossible to do with all but the most modern technologies (or with nature and eons of patience).
One of my players gets a kick out of using fabricate in offensive ways, such as creating a trap in a hallway out of surrounding materials for enemies in hot pursuit (he actually used the trapmaking rules and has several pre-made trap ideas ready for any given situation).
I would allow it, but only on non-magical material or material that is not in the possession of another creature.
So, any regular door would be fair game, regardless of what it was made of, but one that had any kind of magic imbued in it (thinking of thassilonian preservative magic) would foil the spell.
Also, you would not be able to change the giant's great club into tooth picks if it was on his person. Lying on the bed, sure, no problem.
Creative Director
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This is indeed a legal use of the spell (although note that working with minerals, such as iron, reduces the maximum size of the target).
Remember that fabricate is also a 5th level spell. There's plenty of other spells that can ruin doors of much lower level—rusting grasp, wood shape, knock, etc. Heck; passwall is a REALLY good way to bypass doors, and it's an equal level to fabricate.
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Thanks everyone. I'm now of the mind that it's a creative and unexpected way to get through a door that they could have just asked the rogue to unlock. In retrospect, it was a pretty clever idea, as neither arcane caster had any prepared spells for the situation.
@Ravingdork - I really like the idea of fabricating traps! I might have to introduce an encounter where the PCs chase down a NPC sorcerer who's trapping the tunnel as he makes his escape.
This is indeed a legal use of the spell (although note that working with minerals, such as iron, reduces the maximum size of the target).
Remember that fabricate is also a 5th level spell. There's plenty of other spells that can ruin doors of much lower level—rusting grasp, wood shape, knock, etc. Heck; passwall is a REALLY good way to bypass doors, and it's an equal level to fabricate.
Wow.
I didn't realize that fabricate is the only spell you need to completely topple a tower. Take out a keep in minutes (or less). Now that's demolition.
Quote : "If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell."
I would increase the casting time to affect mineral matter to 1 round per cubic foot as well. Also I would rule it generally uses the closest resource of material to make the item.
Abusive players could easily use the spell to slice any type of (non-magical) construct in half otherwise, the main focus of the spell should be on crafting, not demolition.. generally I would not need such rulings in my player circle, but no doubt many players reading this thread will see ways to abuse it far beyond the spirit of the spell.
That's actually awesome. I hadn't thought of that before. I had used the major creation spell to make a key to get through a door though.
Gotta agree a 5th level spell getting you past a door is no big deal.
Abusive players could easily use the spell to slice any type of (non-magical) construct in half otherwise, the main focus of the spell should be on crafting, not demolition.. generally I would not need such rulings in my player circle, but no doubt many players reading this thread will see ways to abuse it far beyond the spirit of the spell.
And
That's actually awesome. I hadn't thought of that before. I had used the major creation spell to make a key to get through a door though.
Gotta agree a 5th level spell getting you past a door is no big deal.
So ... a 5th level spell is *not* good enough to drop a Golem for you? If handily applied I'd TOTALLY let something like that waste a golem. Now - it's still going to get golem-protections, etc. on it, though.
I'd enjoy seeing this remake a robot or a made item. Turn a robot into a large art deco planter?
It won't work on Golems. It doesn't work on magic items and creatures - a golem is an artificial creature (and some might argue a magic item as well).
S
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[...] the main focus of the spell should be on crafting, not demolition..
I agree.
I suppose the spell could be reworded so that "worked materials" are not capable of being transformed by the spell. Or maybe those worked materials can only be subtly altered and not changed in a wholesale manner? The wording would obviously need work. :)
Abusive players could easily use the spell to slice any type of (non-magical) construct in half otherwise, the main focus of the spell should be on crafting, not demolition.. generally I would not need such rulings in my player circle, but no doubt many players reading this thread will see ways to abuse it far beyond the spirit of the spell.And
So ... a 5th level spell is *not* good enough to drop a Golem for you? If handily applied I'd TOTALLY let something like that waste a golem. Now - it's still going to get golem-protections, etc. on it, though.That's actually awesome. I hadn't thought of that before. I had used the major creation spell to make a key to get through a door though.
Gotta agree a 5th level spell getting you past a door is no big deal.
How did you get that from what I said?
Others have already answered why it wouldn't work on a Golem. Nice idea though. Always like to hear creative uses for spells.
Abusive players could easily use the spell to slice any type of (non-magical) construct in half otherwise, the main focus of the spell should be on crafting, not demolition.. generally I would not need such rulings in my player circle, but no doubt many players reading this thread will see ways to abuse it far beyond the spirit of the spell.And
So ... a 5th level spell is *not* good enough to drop a Golem for you? If handily applied I'd TOTALLY let something like that waste a golem. Now - it's still going to get golem-protections, etc. on it, though.That's actually awesome. I hadn't thought of that before. I had used the major creation spell to make a key to get through a door though.
Gotta agree a 5th level spell getting you past a door is no big deal.
How did you get that from what I said?
Others have already answered why it wouldn't work on a Golem. Nice idea though. Always like to hear creative uses for spells.
To be clear, by 'construct' I didnt mean the creature type, the casting time makes it mostly useless in combat anyway.
I meant like say.. a tower, bridge or a mountain (technically not a construct I know xD)
A 5th level Druid can destroy just about any non-magical structure you can think of. Guaranteed. No reason a 9th level Wizard/Cleric shouldn't be able to do the same.
that is an issue with your 5th lvl druid, I am not saying the wiz can not do it, but should he be able to do such as a side effect of a fabricate spell ?
Fabricate only works on raw materials.... that's the explicit definition of the spell. Something already manufactured is offlimits.
1) Read the spell, I don't have the PFRPG book with me but the PFSRD says nothing about "raw materials," just materials. Link to D20PFSRD.com - Spells - Fabricate
2) Read further up where Jason states it is indeed a legal use of the spell.
I once played a kobold sorcerer master trapmsith who used fabricate to made traps for his enemies mid-combat. It was a lot of fun.
I'd enjoy seeing this remake a robot or a made item. Turn a robot into a large art deco planter?
It won't work on Golems. It doesn't work on magic items and creatures - a golem is an artificial creature (and some might argue a magic item as well).
S
Well ... I guess that would fall under the "golem protections" stuff (ie: that *most* magic simply won't affect them).
On the other side, taking Fabricate in particular, IF it would work, it wouldn't "waste" 'em in my GM call. Fabricate says you make something ... so, assuming this could punch-through a SR check or something along those lines (seriously - I'm not lookin' it all up for a quick hypothetical), I'd allow the caster to make like 1-2 significant changes somehow (make it a mer-golem and lose legs for instance - drastically reducing movement, etc), and then move along. They get *an* effect for trying something creative, and the monster gets chances to resist, AND the ability to continue to fully function.
:shrugs:
"out of the box" thinking isn't the worst thing in the world and is something that should NOT be discouraged, IMO. If that means that I as GM toss things aside for the good of the group/scene/whatever - so be it. I'm fine doing that when it's fitting and appropriate.
Heck, I've got a druid who has Fabricate via the Eberron dragonmarks. We ran into a bunch of bandits sniping at us from up in the trees, so the druid fabricated the grove of trees into an attractive national park style gazebo with the still living trees as the pillars but all the branches the bandits had been standing on removed and processed into lumber.
Heck, I've got a druid who has Fabricate via the Eberron dragonmarks. We ran into a bunch of bandits sniping at us from up in the trees, so the druid fabricated the grove of trees into an attractive national park style gazebo with the still living trees as the pillars but all the branches the bandits had been standing on removed and processed into lumber.Trees are creatures so that was not a legal use of the spell which specifically forbids using them as raw material.
Entangle, however would have worked wonders.
actually I think by D&D terms trees count as objects rather than creatures.
Heck, I've got a druid who has Fabricate via the Eberron dragonmarks. We ran into a bunch of bandits sniping at us from up in the trees, so the druid fabricated the grove of trees into an attractive national park style gazebo with the still living trees as the pillars but all the branches the bandits had been standing on removed and processed into lumber.Trees are creatures so that was not a legal use of the spell which specifically forbids using them as raw material.
Entangle, however would have worked wonders.
Define creatures. I know many people who would not agree with this statement, including myself.
As for fabricate, I can't wait to use it to rip appart molecules. Use water to create 2 seprate tanks filled with hydrogen and oxygen to make a giant bomb :)
My goblin knows electrolisis and can do it with a standard craft check. The spell just lets him do it faster, and on a bigger scale... BOOM
edit: fixed atom to molecule. I don't want to be ripping appart atoms. I can't contain those particles... yet...
Heck, I've got a druid who has Fabricate via the Eberron dragonmarks. We ran into a bunch of bandits sniping at us from up in the trees, so the druid fabricated the grove of trees into an attractive national park style gazebo with the still living trees as the pillars but all the branches the bandits had been standing on removed and processed into lumber.Trees are creatures so that was not a legal use of the spell which specifically forbids using them as raw material.
Entangle, however would have worked wonders.
Define creatures. I know many people who would not agree with this statement, including myself.
As for fabricate, I can't wait to use it to rip appart atoms. Use water to create 2 seprate tanks filled with hydrogen and oxygen to make a giant bomb :)
My goblin knows electrolisis and can do it with a standard craft check. The spell just lets him do it faster, and on a bigger scale... BOOM
If only you could craft something by tearing apart atoms you wouldn't even need the device to create a nuclear explosion, also a means to do it from range is preferable..
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.Sorry, you cannot see molecules, and certainly not make out the difference between an oxygen molecule and a hydrogen molecule by sight.
( hope quoting works like that )And all this is presuming there are elements outside fire, earth, water, air, positive, negative and shadow.
Fabricate spell allows you to use a craft skill at lower time and without the normal tools. I have the craft(chemistry) skill required to perform the task. Therefore, I can use the spell to separate oxygen and hydrogen. It is no different than using craft(weaponsmithing) to manipulate carbon atoms turning iron into steel. And I highly doubt anyone will argue that you can't do that with the spell.
Mm... Except there's no Craft(Chemistry) skill, but still, I find the point about iron and steel valid. Or at least I feel it _should_ be.
...But I think, it isn't.
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.And as you just successfully argued, Iron isn't Steel.
Conveniently, you could have pre-existing steel source - say, old swords - and fabricate from those.
The craft skill only lists examples. There are whatever skills your GM allows.
Define material. I am taking iron and carbon atoms and organinzing them into what is commonly known as steel. Likewise, I am taking Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms and organizing them into either water or 2 seprate gases. I am not changing material.
Heck, I've got a druid who has Fabricate via the Eberron dragonmarks. We ran into a bunch of bandits sniping at us from up in the trees, so the druid fabricated the grove of trees into an attractive national park style gazebo with the still living trees as the pillars but all the branches the bandits had been standing on removed and processed into lumber.Trees are creatures so that was not a legal use of the spell which specifically forbids using them as raw material.
Entangle, however would have worked wonders.
If you check the text of the spell, it gives turning a grove of trees into a bridge as a specific example. Not a grove of dead trees, not a pile of lumber, but a regular grove of trees.
Now I wouldn't let the spell turn living pigs into sausages, but once they've stopped moving enough to be processed, yeah, sure.
I'd allow it as it's a clever use of the spell. Things that the PCs do to both solve problems 'outside' the box and make me go 0-o are win wins in my book.
Now, making a statue would require some Craft: Sculpting ranks but just making a hole in an iron door, cake.
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
Heck, I've got a druid who has Fabricate via the Eberron dragonmarks. We ran into a bunch of bandits sniping at us from up in the trees, so the druid fabricated the grove of trees into an attractive national park style gazebo with the still living trees as the pillars but all the branches the bandits had been standing on removed and processed into lumber.Trees are creatures so that was not a legal use of the spell which specifically forbids using them as raw material.
Entangle, however would have worked wonders.
If you check the text of the spell, it gives turning a grove of trees into a bridge as a specific example. Not a grove of dead trees, not a pile of lumber, but a regular grove of trees.
Now I wouldn't let the spell turn living pigs into sausages, but once they've stopped moving enough to be processed, yeah, sure.
The core rule book copy I have doesnt mention any example, might be it is a 3.5 example you are refering to ?
The craft skill only lists examples. There are whatever skills your GM allows.Well, yeah. And a DM can allow or disallow all these uses of fabricate suggested here.
Define material. I am taking iron and carbon atoms and organinzing them into what is commonly known as steel. Likewise, I am taking Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms and organizing them into either water or 2 seprate gases. I am not changing material.Assuming atoms or molecules exist, or those gasses you speak of. How do you know it's not just single element, 'air', of which there's an entire plane of? But that's a setting granularity issue, so for the purpose of this debate, let's presume these elements exist.
Well, it's possible to see carbon and iron. It's not usually possible to see hydrogen or oxygen.
also, steel is an alloy while water is a chemical compound. Different things, entirely.Would you allow Fabricate to turn wood into coal, or tar? That's about equal to the smithing example.
Would you allow Fabricate to turn trees into diamonds? Because, that's what you're trying to do here, with the gasses.
Now, Fabricate should be able to replicate the work you could do anyway, given tools and time, so if your DM allows you knowledge of electrolysis, then, I guess you could pull off water to hydrogen and oxygen. Of course, you'd need some sort of storage tanks for those, but that's a separate issue.
If the character can do it mundanely without magic, the spell can assist them to do it faster. That is the entire purpose of the spell.
I am not talking about anything my character cannot already do without the right time and equipment. I am only using the spell to assist me. As for making coal, diamonds, or tar, in the campaign I am playing in, yes, but in most other campaigns, no I would not allow it. My character knows that trees, diamonds, and plastic are all made out of primarily carbon. The knowledge is available in the game world and I have spent points in the necessary skills. In most game worlds, I would not assume this to be the case, but this campaign world is a post-appocalyptic Earth going through a rebirth after re-discovering the lost knowledge from before the appocalypse in previous campaigns.
So I guess what I think people should take away from this is be careful what knowledge you allow your players to have.
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I am taking iron and carbon atoms and organinzing them into what is commonly known as steel.
Heh, not in my campaign. :)
Unless you can come up with an in-character reason why the PC even knows about molecules there's no way I would allow this. IMC alchemy is as close to chemistry as the characters are going to get.
You need to remember that the time periods during which most "historical fantasy" campaigns are set consist of peasants who couldn't read or write, and many minor nobles didn't either. Heck, they didn't even know what germs were or how people could get sick from them. Why do you think they had all of those silly superstitions? (Like saying a blessing when someone sneezes or throwing a pinch of salt over the shoulder to ward off "evil".)
I am taking iron and carbon atoms and organinzing them into what is commonly known as steel.Heh, not in my campaign. :)
Unless you can come up with an in-character reason why the PC even knows about molecules there's no way I would allow this. IMC alchemy is as close to chemistry as the characters are going to get.
You need to remember that the time periods during which most "historical fantasy" campaigns are set consist of peasants who couldn't read or write, and many minor nobles didn't either. Heck, they didn't even know what germs were or how people could get sick from them. Why do you think they had all of those silly superstitions? (Like saying a blessing when someone sneezes or throwing a pinch of salt over the shoulder to ward off "evil".)
Just because the people didn't know what they were doing it does not mean they did not know how to do it. They were manipulating carbon atoms to make steel, but didn't know that that was what they were doing. They had a process that they followed to make the steel. They knew it required coal, a carbon source, iron, and getting the iron to different temperatures. They also knew that different atomic structures of the iron and carbon produced different results, because you can see and test the different atomic structures. They didn't know that this caused the difference, but they knew it existed and how to manipulate it to produce metals with different qualities.
If someone had the crafting skills required to do this process, they would be able to make steel with the spell. Thus, the spell can manipulate atoms, regardless of whether the person casting the spell knows that is what he is doing. Therefore, if you know of annother process that requires manipulating atoms, you can do it with the spell.
I am taking iron and carbon atoms and organinzing them into what is commonly known as steel.Heh, not in my campaign. :)
Unless you can come up with an in-character reason why the PC even knows about molecules there's no way I would allow this. IMC alchemy is as close to chemistry as the characters are going to get.
You need to remember that the time periods during which most "historical fantasy" campaigns are set consist of peasants who couldn't read or write, and many minor nobles didn't either. Heck, they didn't even know what germs were or how people could get sick from them. Why do you think they had all of those silly superstitions? (Like saying a blessing when someone sneezes or throwing a pinch of salt over the shoulder to ward off "evil".)
Just because the people didn't know what they were doing it does not mean they did not know how to do it. They were manipulating carbon atoms to make steel, but didn't know that that was what they were doing. They had a process that they followed to make the steel. They knew it required coal, a carbon source, iron, and getting the iron to different temperatures. They also knew that different atomic structures of the iron and carbon produced different results, because you can see and test the different atomic structures. They didn't know that this caused the difference, but they knew it existed and how to manipulate it to produce metals with different qualities.
If someone had the crafting skills required to do this process, they would be able to make steel with the spell. Thus, the spell can manipulate atoms, regardless of whether the person casting the spell knows that is what he is doing. Therefore, if you know of annother process that requires manipulating atoms, you can do it with the spell.
While basically true, it is a fantasy setting, at some point a fantasy setting says : f*%^ physics, f*%^ chemistry.. if someone gets sick he might have displeased the goddess of plagues by not sticking to the proper rituals, this is not consistant throughout the game but the game will never really function with chemistry on a molecular level.
Turning wood into charcoal is a pretty standard use of Fabricate. That's how the best charcoal is made anyway.