Hello, when reading the rules of the Shadowdancer and of the Shadow Conjuration spell he gets as a spell-like ability I started to wonder about something.
If a wizard casts Shadow Conjuration to mimic Summon Monster I most people who see it won't be able to recognise that he does something different than casting the actual spell. So they get a saving throw when interacting with the summoned monster to realise that they are partial illusions and everything is fine.
But what if the party sees someone who wears leather armor, uses weapons, teleports between shadows, hides in plain sight and starts casting conjurations? Could they claim to automatically disbelieve it to reduce the damage? Should they make a knowledge check (and if yes which one) to see if their characters recognise it too? And what if one of the characters is a shadowdancer himself? Would he automatically recognise a colleague?
But what if the party sees someone who wears leather armor, uses weapons, teleports between shadows, hides in plain sight and starts casting conjurations? Could they claim to automatically disbelieve it to reduce the damage?
It depends on how you apply the rules in the page 211 of the rulebook
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails
to notice something is amiss. A character faced with
proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.
If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and
communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a
saving throw with a +4 bonus.
I don't like metagaming and I don't think that creatures, PCs, or NPCs have such detailed knowledge of characters classes game mechanics.
Furthermore you never know when a character has 1 level in an spellcasting class.I would probably allow an automatic succesful save for another Shadowdancer, but I would only give +4 to his friends. Seeing that another person doesn't believe an illusion isn't a proof, it is just the condition that grants you a +4 to the Save, as the rules say.
Knowledge is used only to identify monsters abilities. If any I would use Arcana or Local (which is by RAW the skill with information about the humanoid type). DC 10 or 15 + level or CR. Note that the skill only gives a bit of information, for every 5 points exceeding the DC you get more information.
This is pretty close to allowing player knowledge rule a character action. Characters do not go around with signs for their class and a list of abilities they gain.
In a game that includes wizards, clerics, druids, rangers, bards, eldritch knights, etc as well as feats that change these options you have even more of an issue. Hint - Just about every single class I listed above has the ability to cast Summon Monster I in some form or another. Either as a class feature, via UMD, or a spell storing ring or other magic.
If a character has a reason to think it could be an illusion then they can try and ignore it. But if this were too meta-gamed in my group I would have fun putting in some legal NPC's that will make a character regret making an assumption of what classes can do what and guessing based upon how they are dressed.
All that being said, stereotypes exist for a reason and it is safe to say a guy in full plate with a heavy shield and a bastard sword is a person who fights... and a guy in robes with a pointy hat and a staff is probably a magic user.
I could see knowledge skills identifying people once you see them doing more than just standing there or if they are famous in some way.
One way you can look at it is this:
The character may know it's not supposed to be real, but they might not have the will to compleatly convince themselves of that.
On top of that it's a spell like ability. No verbal, somatic, or material components are involved so there is no way to know for sure it is a shadow conjuration effect.
If the shadow dancer used this ability out of sight of a character, they also have no way to know the shadow dancer didn't just use a wand of summon monster.
Hello, when reading the rules of the Shadowdancer and of the Shadow Conjuration spell he gets as a spell-like ability I started to wonder about something.
If a wizard casts Shadow Conjuration to mimic Summon Monster I most people who see it won't be able to recognise that he does something different than casting the actual spell. So they get a saving throw when interacting with the summoned monster to realise that they are partial illusions and everything is fine.
But what if the party sees someone who wears leather armor, uses weapons, teleports between shadows, hides in plain sight and starts casting conjurations? Could they claim to automatically disbelieve it to reduce the damage? Should they make a knowledge check (and if yes which one) to see if their characters recognise it too? And what if one of the characters is a shadowdancer himself? Would he automatically recognise a colleague?
How would you know this guy isn't:
a) a wizard with arcane armour training
b) multiclassed to thief with the same
c) a bard
d) A thief with UMD and some fun toys
e) A cleric who likes leathers
f) Arcane Trickster
g) anything else, really...
So, yeah, the metagameness of it is, to me, quite on the stupid side.
Having said that, however, you could always use the old rule that if someone suspects an illusion for other reasons, they can take a full-round action to try to disbelieve.
But what if the party sees someone who wears leather armor, uses weapons, teleports between shadows, hides in plain sight and starts casting conjurations? Could they claim to automatically disbelieve it to reduce the damage?
Yes.
And a conjurer/shadowdancer can conjure critters that get a coup-de-grâce because they can perfectly line up their attacks because those rubes completely ignore them. }>
But what if the party sees someone who wears leather armor, uses weapons, teleports between shadows, hides in plain sight and starts casting conjurations? Could they claim to automatically disbelieve it to reduce the damage?Yes.
And a conjurer/shadowdancer can conjure critters that get a coup-de-grâce because they can perfectly line up their attacks because those rubes completely ignore them. }>
I totally agree. Simple solution would be to give them their automatic disbelieve. Then let them run into someone smart enough to pretend to be something their not.
I would say you are flatfooted and probably take either bonus damage or max damage if your stupid enough to ignore the summoned large red dragon...
Just the opinion of one DM. I like it when people assume they know what I am doing. Their looks of surprise are priceless.
Thanks for all the responses.
I wouldn't consider it metagaming if their characters can believably have the knowledge. A shadowdancer will probably be able to recognise someone with the same profession, a bard will maybe have heard about the exploits of great shadowdancers and will have an idea about their abilities. A wizard or cleric with the darkness domain could have studied it etc.
While considering people who disbelieve flat-footed is a nice idea the problem is that the illusions are still 20%-60% real, so they won't ignore it completely.
So I guess the best idea is to give them one extra saving-throw if they actively try to disbelieve?
Personally, I think it reeks of metagaming of the highest brand. You are literally allowing out of character information to effect their in character information.
Personally, I think it reeks of metagaming of the highest brand. You are literally allowing out of character information to effect their in character information.
Why do you automatically assume that their characters have absolutely no idea what a shadowdancer is and can do? Of course, the level 1 half-orc Barbarian probably won't have an idea, but the level 10 illusionist wizard who has all the shadow spells himself and has studied beings who use the power of shadows like shadow dragons and shadowdancers could have a better idea. And the Level 5 Rogue/Level 10 Shadowdancer should be pretty sure that the guy who teleports between shadows, can hide as good as he and has a shadow for a companion is a shadowdancer whose other abilities will probably have the same effects. Or does a shadowdancer have to believe that his own powers are 100% real?
I think people are missing a key point:
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
You don't get to 'choose' to disbelieve -- IF someone makes the save throw and disbelieves then they can communicate it to other people and then the other people gain a +4 bonus on their save throw.
You don't just get to say, "I disbelieve" and get a +4 bonus to the save throws. Someone has to tell you that it isn't real, and you have to believe them -- which for shadow evocation could be a mute point -- after all you can't communicate with someone else that the fireball isn't real while they are being engulfed in it since it is instantaneous.
Also remember that shadow spells are real -- in the case of the basic shadow conjuration spell it is still 20% real even if they disbelieve.
Personally, I think it reeks of metagaming of the highest brand. You are literally allowing out of character information to effect their in character information.Why do you automatically assume that their characters have absolutely no idea what a shadowdancer is and can do? Of course, the level 1 half-orc Barbarian probably won't have an idea, but the level 10 illusionist wizard who has all the shadow spells himself and has studied beings who use the power of shadows like shadow dragons and shadowdancers could have a better idea. And the Level 5 Rogue/Level 10 Shadowdancer should be pretty sure that the guy who teleports between shadows, can hide as good as he and has a shadow for a companion is a shadowdancer whose other abilities will probably have the same effects. Or does a shadowdancer have to believe that his own powers are 100% real?
As Abraham said, you don't just go "Well that's not true."
The whole point of illusion magic is that it's magic. Even if it's not real, it's real enough to do physical things.
In order to disbelieve, you have to make your will check first. You have to literally convince yourself that you aren't really on fire, despite being burned.