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How can I keep my player's two characters competitive in combat while running published modules?
They are currently gestalt with good stats (sorcerer/rogue and fighter/cleric).
Combat has a had a good level of threat so far but I am concerned that the lack of actions in a turn will kill them off fairly soon - the last time one player went unconscious things got really difficult.
They are both characters of religious conviction so I had considered handing out the half-celestial template as a reward for saving the day and claiming the mcguffin at around level 8.
Is this a good idea?
Any other suggestions?
We are currently running through Darkmoon Vale and will follow up with Red Hand Of Doom (all PF converted).
You're right, you're going to have to do something. A four-PC group can take 4 actions every round, and has 4 HP pools to sustain damage. But a two-PC group only has 2 actions and 2 HP pools.
I think the easy thing is for them each to get a cohort. If they aren't high enough level for the Leadership feat, then just let them hire a couple NPCs. Maybe since your two PCs are gestalt, you might want to underpower the NPCs just a little to compensate or you may end up with an overpowered group. That will balance the actions and the HP right there.
If you don't want to handle two extra NPCs in the group, then there is no easy answer.
Sure, you can hand out a fancy template. The risk here is that your PCs will fight hundreds of battles over their career, and all it takes is one battle that goes against them (lucky criticals, misjudgment of CR, bad PC tactics, whatever) and you have a TPK very quickly because of the reduced actions and HP. As the DM, you will have to cheat, cheat, cheat to keep them alive.
Or you can lower the CR of every encounter by removing some of the monsters or lowering the HD or levels, etc., (which also lowers the xp and loot). This works better than the template, but it is a whole lot more work, and even then it still runs the same risk, though maybe less of it, that you could TPK them with any battle they enter.
Ultimately, maybe a combination of template, CR adjustments, and DM-cheating is the best approach. Whatever you do, this will be a thin narrow line you'll have to walk to keep them challenged, alive, and having fun.
How can I keep my player's two characters competitive in combat while running published modules?
They are currently gestalt with good stats (sorcerer/rogue and fighter/cleric).
Combat has a had a good level of threat so far but I am concerned that the lack of actions in a turn will kill them off fairly soon - the last time one player went unconscious things got really difficult.
They are both characters of religious conviction so I had considered handing out the half-celestial template as a reward for saving the day and claiming the mcguffin at around level 8.
Is this a good idea?
Any other suggestions?We are currently running through Darkmoon Vale and will follow up with Red Hand Of Doom (all PF converted).
I don't think adding a template will solve the problem; when one character goes unconscious the other still be just as vulnerable, as you pointed out. Still, it might be helpful for them to be more powerful.
You could add to the size of the party thru the Leadership feat where the Cohorts could fill some of the party needs. They'd be lower level, but should be useful in most situations Or allow them to pay hireling adventurers, though this may be more costly as your players may feel obligated to raise them should they get killed. They should be lower level than any cohort or at least no more powerful than an equivalent cohort.
Another course would be to alter some of the encounters, especially ones where they could be overwhelmed. Lower the numbers of mobs or lower their HD or both.
You may need to suggest Leadership AND make modifications to the adventures, but those mods might be less work since the party will have greater numbers.
Nertz!!! Ninja'd ;D
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You could give them max HP every level instead of just 1st level.
Remind them before they go shopping that for them, defense is better than offense and "run away" magic is better than defense.
For some Fort and Will Saves you could let the PCs reroll failed Saves each round (maybe with a penalty or maybe only x number of attempts = to WIS or CON modifier.) Example: One PC makes his Will Save vs Fear but the other fails. Next round the PC who's running gets to attempt a new Will Save (maybe at a -2 penalty or maybe he can only reattempt the Save the number of times he has as his WIS bonus.).
. . . . Poison Saves, Confusion Saves, Nauseated Saves, Cursing Saves, Exhausted Saves -- any kind of Save that has an ongoing affect would be good).
Give the Sorcerer/ Rogue a Familiar that, while it may not participate in fights (cuz the Player's already running 2 PCS), may be able to drag a PC to safety or run for help.
Give the Cleric/ Fighter a charm or relic from his Deity that has a Contingency, available once per month, that acts as a Deus ex Machina as long as the PC is in good standing with the Deity.
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Presumably their classes are set in stone?
If not having one be druid instead of cleric, and the other summoner instead of sorceror could help tremendously. The combination of their 'pets' and the potential summons will help even out the numbers. Add that to the gestault abilities and they could probably handle the vast majority of challenges right at their level.
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The OP makes it sound like they're already playing; at least a few sessions have been played -- so the classes are set. Even still, it's the Player's choice as to Class, the DM would have a hard time telling a Player not to play a certain Gestalt build in that manner.
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Regarding Leadership, assuming the Player is only running two PCs because that's ENOUGH of a juggling act, throwing in another PC and calling it a Cohort ain't gonna be a good idea. (If a Cohort won't be a problem then, sheesh, make a 3rd PC!!!.)
Now, the DM could write up a Cohort and run it as an NPC -- but the DM, already running all the monsters and non-PC NPCs, may not want to.
I'd grant a bonus starting level (to have the important HP buffer at low levels) - then simply play the adventures as they are. With only 2 characters, the wealth will quickly allow them to power up and they'll level more frequently - often taking on boss fights at near-same-level. The fast-progression should allow them access to more creative solutions to encounters; as a 2-man party can more effectively stealth and work encounters to their advantage.
Perks like celestial template are a very nice touch too :)
I'm very fond of the Faction Guide that was released recently - if that can be worked into your adventures; it'll give your players a great way to find NPC aid and little perks.
Red Hand of Doom might be my favorite adventure ever, but I don't see any way a 2 person party, even gestalt, can get through that one wihtout major changes being made on the DM's end. That adventure is a BEAST.
The OP makes it sound like they're already playing; at least a few sessions have been played -- so the classes are set. Even still, it's the Player's choice as to Class, the DM would have a hard time telling a Player not to play a certain Gestalt build in that manner.
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Regarding Leadership, assuming the Player is only running two PCs because that's ENOUGH of a juggling act, throwing in another PC and calling it a Cohort ain't gonna be a good idea. (If a Cohort won't be a problem then, sheesh, make a 3rd PC!!!.)
Now, the DM could write up a Cohort and run it as an NPC -- but the DM, already running all the monsters and non-PC NPCs, may not want to.
Obviously its the player's choice, i meant recommending the classes not forcing them on the player. And as for already having run sessions he clearly has, but that doesnt mean you cant re-write the characters in favor of making them more survivable. My group allows that for the first few sessions regardless and that isnt in a 2 pc game.
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If the problem is the number of actions per turn, you need to add bodies to the iniative track. No amount of extra power (within RAW) is gonna be able to add enough to deal with getting swarmed.
Summoned monsters? Both can cast the spell, so it might be a good way to add extra actions to the group. It can also add extra spellcasting at higher levels.
Also, what about planar allies?
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If you want the party to survive you will have to scale back the adventure, when they put 4 goblins on patrol only put 2, where there are 6 orcs and a boss put 2 and a boss. I don't think adding templates or gestalt is really the answer, the nature of the challenge needs to change.
There are a lot of friendly NPCs the party can recruit in that adventure, also, the previously mentioned leadership feat would be useful.
Red Hand of Doom might be my favorite adventure ever, but I don't see any way a 2 person party, even gestalt, can get through that one wihtout major changes being made on the DM's end. That adventure is a BEAST.
2 monks could probably do it
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I've been running two people through Curse of the Crimson Throne. They're currently at the end of the third module, Escape from Old Korvosa. While there have been a few very close encounters, what I've tended to do is up their XP ever so slightly so they are now about 1/2 a level, possibly 3/4 of a level above where they should be. This combined with the fact that they have a massive amount of treasure (which goes into a lot of consumables... you'd be amazed at how many wands of cure light a party of two can go through), has led them to do well.
I do worry because at lower levels they were doing very very well, however now it seems more and more difficult to balance. Either the encounter is a cakewalk (the enemies can't hit the PCs) or it's a tough encounter (the enemies can hit them).
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(After Darkmoon Vale, we) will follow up with Red Hand of Doom
The final fight in RHoD may be much too much for 2 PCs
...I don't see any way a 2 person party, even gestalt, can get through that one .... That adventure is a BEAST.
2 monks could probably do it
Sure.
Heck, 1 Monk could do it.Of course, he'd have to be, like, 19th Level or so.
RHoD
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Thanks for the advice, everyone.
I think I'll try to keep them wealthy and use the fast xp-progression to let them get ahead of the curve.
that, plus a fancy template and some DM-secret dice rolls.
She really doesn't want to run any more characters.
Just musing now, this thread has made me think - perhaps I could give the PCs more actions? I'll ponder a mechanic...
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I've been running two people through Curse of the Crimson Throne. They're currently at the end of the third module, Escape from Old Korvosa. While there have been a few very close encounters, what I've tended to do is up their XP ever so slightly so they are now about 1/2 a level, possibly 3/4 of a level above where they should be. This combined with the fact that they have a massive amount of treasure (which goes into a lot of consumables... you'd be amazed at how many wands of cure light a party of two can go through), has led them to do well.
I do worry because at lower levels they were doing very very well, however now it seems more and more difficult to balance. Either the encounter is a cakewalk (the enemies can't hit the PCs) or it's a tough encounter (the enemies can hit them).
If you don't have the party fighting level appropriate enemies they won't present any real threat. RHoD already has issues with PCs facing low level orcs and bumping character level only makes this a bigger issue.
You can have a bunch of below CR enemies but you should always slip in a boss that gives them a threat.