|
We still roll our stats for one reason and one reason only...equality is a MYTH
Playing devil's advocate, but why is it only stats you roll for? Why not what race you are? Why not what class you are? Why not even what level you start at? Do you let your players choose what sex they are?
It seems that a man born into poverty may have little time to spend training to be a wizard, he is more likley be working at a profession like carpenter or farmer to just put food on the table, indeed he would be unlikely to be able to afford to pay for a wizard tutor, or afford the weaponry to train as a fighter.
Compare that with the son of a king - fed well and tutored by the best swordsmen and scholars in the land from an early age. With access to an arsenal of weaponry to train with and the king's magical stores and library.
The reality of inequality would surely demand that the characters start at different levels, with the peasant's choice of class much more restricted? And with the starting wealth and resources of the prince much greater (perhaps in line with his level?)
And then you get onto the races with a longer lifespan than humans - surely they could have attained a higher level and still be considered young enough to go adventuring?
I can understand you liking random rolling, and that is great, but implying that it is more "realistic" than point buy I think is not quite correct.
As I said in my first post I would be quite interested to try out a char gen system with much more randomness in it - I think it would create some interesting characters that weren't expected but I wouldn't be doing it because I thought it more "realistic". And even with such a system I would want some limits to promote a better game (i.e. all starting at the same level) even if it would be at the expense of perceived "realism".
we aren't about equality of stats we're about roleplaying and the dice rolls randomly determine what our characters will be like...
Are you implying point buy and roleplaying are mutually exclusive? Because they aren't... really they aren't!
Look at the iconic characters of the fantasy genre, How many 7's did aragorn and gandalf have? Was Allanon a weakling, is Whiskeyjack a buffoon, was Conan a clutz
You seem to be implying that point buy systems will always require a character to have a weak ability score, or even two, is that correct?
In my experience, point buy systems actually limit how low a stat can go much more so than random rolling. In Pathfinder point buy a stat can never be reduced below 7, in D&D3.5 point buy a stat can never be below 8 and in 4e 9 is the minimum a stat can go.
but we are not gonna to shoehorn a player into a build style just in the spirit of equality bc equality is a MYTH at least as far as the characteristics one is born with.
Equality in real life is a myth, but we are talking about games where rules can provide that equality if desired. And for me, I find random ability generation more likely to force me to "shoehorn" my character concept into a set of stats that don't really reflect that concept.
If you are still rolling your stats "for one reason and one reason only", please make that reason be that you find it a more fun way to play than any sense that random rolling better reflects the inequalities of real life.
You're making the mental assumption that, because there is an optimal build, everyone will use that optimized build. This is an erroneous assumption. ..+1. I care about optimization, but I don't always make the best character I can. I normally have a concept, and try to build around it. If I lose power to achieve the concept I can live with that. I try to make sure the character can survive, but the super PC is not the end goal ever.
I agree with you that just because it is possible to optimize, not everyone will, and I applaud all those players who resist the temptation and create interesting and unique characters. I think what bothers me about point buy systems is that, because it gives more power to the player to create their character exactly how they want it, it is tempting for people to optimize. And let's be honest. Looking through these threads here even casually, you have to admit there are a lot of extreme optimizers.
What amuses me as a DM is that usually when people optimize, they seems to be optimizing for just one part of the game - combat. Many of these characters I have seen discussed here might be gods of death in combat, but have little to offer outside of it. If such appear in my game I give fair warning that they will be forced to roleplay that 7 Charisma and 7 Intelligence, and there will be real in-game consequences for having scores that low, just as there are real in-game consequences for having a Constitution of 7.
The fighter with a 20 Strength and an Intelligence of 7 reminds me of a guy I used to play football with. All through high school he had to have someone draw the plays in the dirt for him in the huddle because memorizing a playbook was well beyond him. He was spectacularly gifted physically and ended up getting a full-ride scholarship to a Division I school. He eventually lost his scholarship and dropped out of school because he couldn't handle the mental aspect of the game. Lost contact with him years ago, but I would bet manual labor is what he ended up doing, at best. Translating that to PF, there won't be time before the start of most combats to "draw the plays in the dirt" for the slow-witted fighter. Complex tactics and teamwork are largely going to be beyond him. He's also going to find himself taken advantage of pretty often by con artists and the like. NPCs hired by the BBEG to go after the players are going to pick him out as an easy mark for schemes to divide, ambush and pick off the party one by one.
And don't even get me started on the consequences of a 7 Charisma.
Why can't you be flawed with point buy?Point-buy lets you create the character before the game even begins, rolling lets you create the character throughout the story. YMMV.This is another false dichotomy, for the record. There's nothing preventing you from creating a point buy character throughout the story.I edited my statement to expound a bit on what I meant, you're just too fast!
I dunno, maybe I just play strange. I like flaws. I like being flawed.
I dunno, point-buy just feels too "mechanical" for me. Feels like my character was built on an assembly line. As a bit of a confession, it's easier for me to accept wonky stats if I roll them, than to purposely choose them. That's just me. I'm not saying point-buy is wrong, I just don't prefer it.
I've done damn near every type of stat rolling listed here, and what started to annoy me about it were all the scenarios in which you'd have to reroll x times to get stats to mean minimum reqs in previous editions. The very 1st was ridiculous in that regard, but understandable in that it was the first. Anyway, after years of that BS and coming up with the same 'add a roll', 'add a die' systems that everyone else did I have to say I was definitely in a receptive frame of mind the first time someone mentioned a point buy system.
See, this I can totally understand. I can relate. For Sothmektri, point-buy is was a welcomed change.
It's become apparent to me that this entire argument is just over preferences. Having a preference is great. That doesn't mean someone else is wrong for having their own.
|
|
The way we do re-rolls, is that if your TOTAL ability modifiers add up to +1 or less, then you re-roll. So, no, it's absolutely not "roll til you get what you want anyway."
That is cool if its a defined rule that applies to everyone (D&D3.5 has a similar rule), its no different than the adding a "re-roll all ones" rule. As long as it applies to everyone that is cool.
Personally, I would prefer a method of rolling that prevents scenarios arising where I need to re-roll my entire set of abilities though, but at least your rule won't like require that often (the 3.5 rule even less so, you only re-roll if total mods are +0 or less or no stat is above 13).
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
And I have to ask: rather than throwing the character up against impossible odds and leting the Law of Large Numbers take its toll, why not just give the character an encounter commensurate with his capabilities?
One solution to "low fantasy" characters might be "Throw them against bugbears and then fudge the dice rolls". Another, better, solution might be "Throw them against goblins."
1. I would not use rolling
2. If I continually use encounters that his fighter could survive everyone else becomes bored. I don't like rolling because of this reason. I would rather deal with a bunch of OP'd characters because to me it is easier to do than to have one character with low rolls, try to survive. People are not stupid, and they generally know the difference between when they are surviving based on their talents or because the DM feels sorry for them.
wraithstrike, thank you for your answer.
Now, both random rolling methods, and point-buy, allow different levels of characer strength. TheChozen's character was rolled on a straight 3d6. The equivalent point-buy total would be 0, or maybe 5 points. If your players are making characters based on 5-point totals, then TheChozen's fighter isn't less powerful than the rest of the party.
If you're using 15-point totals, or 20-point totals, then the concern you have with TheChozen's character isn't that it was generated with dice, but rather that it was generated with too low a mechanic. In that case, 4d6, keep 3, might generate a character equal in power to the other PCs.
It seems you're concerned with one thing, attribute totals, and attributing your disdain to something else, dice mechanics rather than point-buy.
Does that make sense?
--+--+-
Point-buy lets you create the character before the game even begins; rolling lets you create the character throughout the story. YMMV.
This is another false dichotomy, for the record. There's nothing preventing you from creating a point buy character throughout the story.
Other people have addressed this more eloquently than I, but surely you recognize that there's some different effort involved in looking at a set of stats and envisioning a character, one you would never have considered playing, that you don't need when assigning attributes based on a pre-set idea of the character.
Don't get me wrong, I think there's a real place for point-buy. I've got a Cavalier in PFS OP, and it would have been hard to roll up a character with the attribute spread a Cavalier requires.
|
|
That wasn't an insult. If you truly thought I said what you claim I said, then your reading comprehension skills DO need work, because what I wrote and what you claim I wrote aren't the same.then your reading comprehension skills need work.Your blatant insults are NOT appreciated.
As there seems to be a requirement that we continue to hump each others leg...
The bits you took issue with were (I know this because YOU bolded them) - please note I expanded the second statement to include the full sentence so it wouldn't be taken out of context;
(1)there will be a way that is better than others to stat up a class
(2)Why would you not allow a player to use this array just because they have before?
In response;
(1) I say there is, you say there isn't - moot point to discuss further.
(2)Looks like a question not a statement to me. If you read this as rhetorical then either (a) you should have asked for clarification or (b) sign us both up for that comprehension course.
S.
As a bit of a confession, it's easier for me to accept wonky stats if I roll them, than to purposely choose them.
Ok, that I can understand. It is hard to gimp yourself. It is like telling someone to punch themselves in the face. Most people will at best pull back at the last instant before actual contact.
|
|
It seems that a man born into poverty may have little time to spend training to be a wizard, he is more likley be working at a profession like carpenter or farmer to just put food on the table, indeed he would be unlikely to be able to afford to pay for a wizard tutor, or afford the weaponry to train as a fighter.
Yay Warhammer RPG (and not the 3e either, 1e (my prefered) or 2e all the way)! Ah, my carefree days as a Rat Catcher and Tomb Robber - was going some well until a beastman cut my hand off and I couldn't hold a spade anymore. :( Still moved in Barber-Surgeon and all was good :)
We had a wizard in the party, townspeople burnt her at the stake unfortunately - mind you the 2e book does warn the person that spell casters aren't loved by the mass. We would have tried to save her but it was far safer to help the peasants stack the wood... Man Warhammer has great atmosphere.
At the other end of the spectrum - Amber diceless RPG. Very cool game and designed for those who like to build PC's!
S.
(2)Why would you not allow a player to use this array just because they have before?
In response;
(2)Looks like a question not a statement to me. If you read this as rhetorical then either (a) you should have asked for clarification or (b) sign us both up for that comprehension course.
What do you even mean by "looks like a question not a statement to me"? You can misrepresent a position just as easily with a question as with a statement. For example:
Person A: "I like pie."
Person B: "Why do you hate cake?"
Person B has used a question to misrepresent Person A's position.
Furthermore, I have no clue what rhetoricalness has to do with anything in this context. The implication is that you were asking the question with the expectation of a response, yet your question implies statements that I did not make. By asking, "Why would you not allow", you are implying that I have disallowed it. I never said that. Why should I respond to a question that inherently misrepresents my position? It's validating your misrepresentation. I have no reason whatsoever to validate anyone's misrepresentation of my position. That way lies stupidity.
And I have to ask: rather than throwing the character up against impossible odds and leting the Law of Large Numbers take its toll, why not just give the character an encounter commensurate with his capabilities?
One solution to "low fantasy" characters might be "Throw them against bugbears and then fudge the dice rolls". Another, better, solution might be "Throw them against goblins."
1. I would not use rolling
2. If I continually use encounters that his fighter could survive everyone else becomes bored. I don't like rolling because of this reason. I would rather deal with a bunch of OP'd characters because to me it is easier to do than to have one character with low rolls, try to survive. People are not stupid, and they generally know the difference between when they are surviving based on their talents or because the DM feels sorry for them.
wraithstrike, thank you for your answer.
Now, both random rolling methods, and point-buy, allow different levels of characer strength. TheChozen's character was rolled on a straight 3d6. The equivalent point-buy total would be 0, or maybe 5 points. If your players are making characters based on 5-point totals, then TheChozen's fighter isn't less powerful than the rest of the party.
If you're using 15-point totals, or 20-point totals, then the concern you have with TheChozen's character isn't that it was generated with dice, but rather that it was generated with too low a mechanic. In that case, 4d6, keep 3, might generate a character equal in power to the other PCs.
It seems you're concerned with one thing, attribute totals, and attributing your disdain to something else, dice mechanics rather than point-buy.
Does that make sense?
..but there is always the chance the dice gods will play their hand, and of course I could allow rerolls, but to keep rerolling defeats the point of rolling, IMHO. I think it would save time in many cases to just do point buy.
Dice mechanics/uneven characters/more work for the DM(assuming he intereferes)/player upset that another has 18,17,16,15,14,13(what I rolled last time) when he has average at best(highest stat was a 15).The dice gods are normally kind to me, but I have been on the other side of that, and it was not fun. I could not do anything.
Now I do understand that normally that stats are pretty even, but having been the uber stat guy, and the barely above commoner guy when the opposite was there is not fun. <---I was saying one time I(we) rolled good, one player rolled bad. Another time everyone rolled really well, except for me. The one time my rolls sucked turned my off to rolling. My PC could have left the group and the they would not have missed a beat.
|
|
More stuff
But the logic went;
Person A: "I like pie."
Person B: "You can't have pie twice." (meaning that twin thing)
Person A: "Why can't I have pie twice?"
Person B: <insert answer civil> or as has happened, complain about mispresentation.
You want to call it quits or keep going? If so then I suggest we exchange email addresses* and stop b-arching at each other in thread. I'm sure the other posters would appreciate it.
Your call.
S.
PS: I am assuming you're not some sort of nutter with a gun fetish of course...
Ok, that I can understand. It is hard to gimp yourself. It is like telling someone to punch themselves in the face. Most people will at best pull back at the last instant before actual contact.
It's also been my experience that PC parties are more forgiving of other PCs who have a rolled low stat than one that was deliberately dumped. It seems to be easier to get stat-buff items to compensate when the low stat is something they were stuck with compared to selected.
Person A: "I like pie."
Person B: "Why do you hate cake?"
THE CAKE IS A LIE! THE CAKE IS A LIE! THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Ahem.
The way we've done 'random gen' for years is 20 point buy, with the following caveat:
1) You define a dump stat.
2) You define a primary stat
3) You define a secondary stat
Primary stat gets 2 points added to it.
Secondary stat gets 1 point added to it.
Roll 17 dice and sort them by the following order.
A die roll of 1 = STR
A die roll of 2 = DEX
A die roll of 3 = CON
A die roll of 4 = INT
A die roll of 5 = WIS
A die roll of 6 = CHA
Any die that rolled your dump stat is re-rolled, and placed as the re-roll says.
If you get a number of points spent on a stat that don't match a point buy threshold (say putting 4 points into a stat) you can cannibalize a stat from your dump stat to make up the balance.
Thus, everyone is a 20 point character. The 20 point characters tend to A) have lower maximum stats and B) tend to have at least one or two 'non-optimized' stat purchases. They don't all look like extruded perfect point buys.
I've done well with the 6+2d6 6 times setup as well as the 4d6 subtract lowest 8 times pick the best. It generates higher stats, yes, but it's not difficult to adjust for, keeps me from having b*$#@y players (all of whom loathe point buy).
So many posts cant read through them all but wanted to post my prefered method of random character generation.
In games I run. I allow each player to roll a set of stats, usually 4d6 drop lowest (reroll nothing) six times.
Then the players as a whole deside which players set of scores to keep.
Each player can then assign those six scores as they choose for the character they want to play.
its random so the fun is there but no one player gets stuck with a character that is just flat out weaker than any other due to dumb luck.
That is a really cool way of doing it. Noted.
It seems that a man born into poverty may have little time to spend training to be a wizard, he is more likley be working at a profession like carpenter or farmer to just put food on the table, indeed he would be unlikely to be able to afford to pay for a wizard tutor, or afford the weaponry to train as a fighter.Yay Warhammer RPG (and not the 3e either, 1e (my prefered) or 2e all the way)! Ah, my carefree days as a Rat Catcher and Tomb Robber - was going some well until a beastman cut my hand off and I couldn't hold a spade anymore. :( Still moved in Barber-Surgeon and all was good :)
We had a wizard in the party, townspeople burnt her at the stake unfortunately - mind you the 2e book does warn the person that spell casters aren't loved by the mass. We would have tried to save her but it was far safer to help the peasants stack the wood... Man Warhammer has great atmosphere.
I miss Warhammer. We used to run 2d10+racial mod down the line for characters, randoming two careers and choosing one. I loved char gen for Warhammer more than any other game. Haven't played it in ages... need to get back to it.
I'll say, straight out, Felix, my character, who began as a peasant and ended up a champion was more fun to play than any other character I've ever played.
D&D is much more about the math than Warhammer is. Depressing, huh? Maybe the next game I run will be 3d6 down the line.
It's also been my experience that PC parties are more forgiving of other PCs who have a rolled low stat than one that was deliberately dumped. It seems to be easier to get stat-buff items to compensate when the low stat is something they were stuck with compared to selected.
Ok, that I can understand. It is hard to gimp yourself. It is like telling someone to punch themselves in the face. Most people will at best pull back at the last instant before actual contact.
I would never care what someone did with their character unless it was a primary stat like a wizard dumping intelligence. As long as your guy pulls his share of the weight they don't have a right to tell you how to build your guy.
If you don't pull your share of the weight, well that is a thread unto itself.
|
|
Haven't played it in ages... need to get back to it.
Doooooo eeeeeettttt!
Seriously it's the most fun you can have with your trousers on after fretting about character balance in D&D. Actually, I think one of my exgirlfriends may add that WH is most fun you can have even if I had my trousers off - but then again she was very angry about the circumstance of our break up... I know too much personal info :p
Are the character's balanced in WH 2e - nope, strangely enough it doesn't seem to impact much on the gaming? I think that's because a large array of foes you will NEVER beat in stand up fight. The Lowliest Camp Follower or the greatest Champion ends up 'splat" vs a Greater Deamon. Will I like my erstwhile WH Wizard friend be burnt at the stake for suggesting we don't need balance to have a good game?
:)
Seriously WH is a difference kind of fun, being stressed about getting bits chopped off by Orcs is almost freshing compared with the stressing about not putting the right score in the right place and therefore in 16 levels not being able to get feat X...
So off topic - but I don't care <screams of maddening laughter echo>
|
Person A: "I like pie."
Person B: "Why do you hate cake?"THE CAKE IS A LIE! THE CAKE IS A LIE! THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Ahem.
The way we've done 'random gen' for years is 20 point buy, with the following caveat:
1) You define a dump stat.
2) You define a primary stat
3) You define a secondary statPrimary stat gets 2 points added to it.
Secondary stat gets 1 point added to it.Roll 17 dice and sort them by the following order.
A die roll of 1 = STR
A die roll of 2 = DEX
A die roll of 3 = CON
A die roll of 4 = INT
A die roll of 5 = WIS
A die roll of 6 = CHAAny die that rolled your dump stat is re-rolled, and placed as the re-roll says.
If you get a number of points spent on a stat that don't match a point buy threshold (say putting 4 points into a stat) you can cannibalize a stat from your dump stat to make up the balance.
Thus, everyone is a 20 point character. The 20 point characters tend to A) have lower maximum stats and B) tend to have at least one or two 'non-optimized' stat purchases. They don't all look like extruded perfect point buys.
You know, RE and I came up with something kinda like that in another thread. You do standard point buy, then you roll 5d6 to be used to flesh out your stats. If you don't have enough points to raise the stat by a point, you re-roll those dice...with the exception that they be postive bonus stats only. That means any stats that you drop to 7 could potential eat one of your points. Makes using 7s even more risky. And this should provide a good balance of being able to play what you like and more fleshed out characters.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
There is always the chance the dice gods will play their hand, and of course I could allow rerolls, but to keep rerolling defeats the point of rolling, IMHO. I think it would save time in many cases to just do point buy.
Dice mechanics/uneven characters/more work for the DM(assuming he intereferes)/player upset that another has 18,17,16,15,14,13(what I rolled last time) when he has average at best(highest stat was a 15).
The dice gods are normally kind to me, but I have been on the other side of that, and it was not fun. I could not do anything.
I apologize for repeating myself from earlier in the thread:
If you only want characters to be out of the control of the players, but still want them to be mostly evenly-powered, try this:
Roll 18 dice. Don't add anything. Clump all the "1's" together, all the "2's", and so forth.
Example:
1's: /////
2's: ////
3's: //
4's: /
5's: ///
6's:///
Then use the 1's to buy Strength, the 2's to buy Dexterity, ... If there are excess points (like, you can't buy exactly 4 points in Dexterity) then you can shuffle those excess points around.
Continued Example:
Strength: 5 pts = 14
Dexterity: 4 pts = 13 and 1 point left over
Constitution: 2 pts = 12
Intelligence: 1 pt = 11
Wisdom: 3 pts = 13
Charisma: 3 pts = 13.
Assign the spare point from Dexterity to Intelligence, to bring it up to a 12.
There. A random character, completely outside the player's control, but every PC will have about the same power level as her peers. You could also go look up Craig Shackleton's "Three Dragon Ante" character generation method from Dragon #346; it does the same thing, but with fancy cards that give you some plausible ideas as to why your PC ended up that way.
|
|
Example: 18d6
1's: /////
2's: ////
3's: //
4's: /
5's: ///
6's:///Then use the 1's to buy Strength, the 2's to buy Dexterity, ... If there are excess points (like, you can't buy exactly 4 points in Dexterity) then you can shuffle those excess points around.
Continued Example:
Strength: 5 pts = 14
Dexterity: 4 pts = 13 and 1 point left over
Constitution: 2 pts = 12
Intelligence: 1 pt = 11
Wisdom: 3 pts = 13
Charisma: 3 pts = 13.Assign the spare point from Dexterity to Intelligence, to bring it up to a 12.
I really like it! That is an awesome method. For your information my new PF campaign I'm starting this weekend will use this rather than the 4d6,drop lowest - if you don't have any objections. The icing on the cake for me is the players get to use the point buy table! Classic.
Cheers dude thanks for repeating your post, I sort of glossed over it the first time around, probably that comprehension problem I seem to have picked up ;)
S.
EDIT: You ever do greater than 18d6? How well do you think it scales if you want more "uber" PC's?
There is always the chance the dice gods will play their hand, and of course I could allow rerolls, but to keep rerolling defeats the point of rolling, IMHO. I think it would save time in many cases to just do point buy.
Dice mechanics/uneven characters/more work for the DM(assuming he intereferes)/player upset that another has 18,17,16,15,14,13(what I rolled last time) when he has average at best(highest stat was a 15).
The dice gods are normally kind to me, but I have been on the other side of that, and it was not fun. I could not do anything.
I apologize for repeating myself from earlier in the thread:
If you only want characters to be out of the control of the players, but still want them to be mostly evenly-powered, try this:
Roll 18 dice. Don't add anything. Clump all the "1's" together, all the "2's", and so forth.
Example: 18d6
1's: /////
2's: ////
3's: //
4's: /
5's: ///
6's:///Then use the 1's to buy Strength, the 2's to buy Dexterity, ... If there are excess points (like, you can't buy exactly 4 points in Dexterity) then you can shuffle those excess points around.
Continued Example:
Strength: 5 pts = 14
Dexterity: 4 pts = 13 and 1 point left over
Constitution: 2 pts = 12
Intelligence: 1 pt = 11
Wisdom: 3 pts = 13
Charisma: 3 pts = 13.Assign the spare point from Dexterity to Intelligence, to bring it up to a 12.
There. A random character, completely outside the player's control, but every PC will have about the same power level as her peers. You could also go look up Craig Shackleton's "Three Dragon Ante" character generation method from Dragon #346; it does the same thing, but with fancy cards that give you some plausible ideas as to why your PC ended up that way.
I actually did not see this post earlier. If we agreed to play a random character based on stats its not a bad idea. The problem is only myself, and another player would be game for it.
I also like making character based off of the way a miniature looks. They normally end up being NPC's since I get to DM more than I get to play.
More stuffBut the logic went;
Person A: "I like pie."
Person B: "You can't have pie twice." (meaning that twin thing)
Person A: "Why can't I have pie twice?"
False.
This is how the logic went:
Person A: "I wouldn't serve pie two nights in a row."
Person B: "Why wouldn't you serve apple-based desserts two nights in a row?"
Once again, I said that I wouldn't allow a twin character. Unless your assertion is that the character is only its stat array, there's no logical way you can draw the conclusion that I wouldn't allow the same stat array (and even if that is your assertion, it's still a bad assertion). You invented a position that I do not hold and attributed it to me. This is especially egregious because I have already explained, twice now, that the twin character thing has literally zero relevance to rolling vs point buy. It's a player expectation vs DM expectation thing. You could run into exactly the same problem with dice rolling. It's yet another false dichotomy.
My group is straight random generation all the way. We've never tried a point buy system - it just doesn't hold any real appeal for any of us. For years now we've worked with the "Organic" method from the 3.5 DMG. 4d6 drop the lowest, in order, you can switch 2 scores and re-roll one. We always used the "high powered" option where you could re-roll the array if it either didn't have a total modifier of +2 or there were no scores 14 or higher.
In our last couple of campaigns we have added the option of rolling up three full arrays this way and choosing the one that best works for your concept. We've found this works pretty well - the characters are generally playable, but you sometimes get interesting ability spreads.
We also roll our hit points, but our standard house rule is you roll and re-roll until you get at least better than half your potential HP (so at least a 5 for a d8)
That said, I totally get the appeal of a point buy. I'm probably the most likely to try something like that in our group, but we all really enjoy the randomness of the rolling. Whatever works for the group, you know...
And, just because I don't want to be left out of the fun:
STR:
INT:
WIS:
DEX:
CON:
CHA:
Hmm, I guess fighter or possibly barbarian.
I apologize for repeating myself from earlier in the thread:If you only want characters to be out of the control of the players, but still want them to be mostly evenly-powered, try this:
Roll 18 dice. Don't add anything. Clump all the "1's" together, all the "2's", and so forth.
Example: 18d6
1's: /////
2's: ////
3's: //
4's: /
5's: ///
6's: ///Then use the 1's to buy Strength, the 2's to buy Dexterity, ... If there are excess points (like, you can't buy exactly 4 points in Dexterity) then you can shuffle those excess points around.
This is similar to what I posted above; it's how we've done random character generation since 3.5; we adjusted it a bit after using it at the table, with the primary, secondary and dump stat designation.
It is MUCH harder to get a 'natural 18' with the straight rolls as you proposed, which is why we did the adjustments. (18s require 17 dice out of 18-20 rolled to come up with the same number.)
I really like it! That is an awesome method. For your information my new PF campaign I'm starting this weekend will use this rather than the 4d6,drop lowest - if you don't have any objections. The icing on the cake for me is the players get to use the point buy table! Classic.Cheers dude thanks for repeating your post, I sort of glossed over it the first time around, probably that comprehension problem I seem to have picked up ;)
S.
EDIT: You ever do greater than 18d6? How well do you think it scales if you want more "uber" PC's?
You might want to look at my variation on this a few posts up. We tried 'straight random allocation of points' and found that the random was a mild problem - and one that was readily fixed.
I've been using the method above since 2008 or so with the tail end of 3.5 and modded it for Pathfinder directly.
The main differences:
1) Select primary stat - it has 2 points allocated
2) Select secondary stat - it has 1 point allocated
3) Select dump stat. Any dice that feed points to this stat get re-rolled, once. The second roll CAN add to your dump stat.
4) Roll dice equal to point budget -3.
5) After rolling to see where your points fall, you can cannibalize your dump stat to make up shortfalls in other stats. You may ONLY cannibalize your dump stat for this.
|
|
Predictable string of multisyllabic words
stefanjhill(at)live.com
Rant via email and shall we stop spamming this thread? Or just drop it if you choose. You are NOT understanding what I mean and repeating your position with liberal insertions of "false" and "dichotomy" is in no way changing my opinions.
Looking forward to hearing from you on the off chance you wish to try to understand - mind you ignorance is bliss they say,
S.
That's fun. At least we go for it sometimes.
After all the rolling we collectively decide who gets to reroll. Need a group you can trust of course.
|
|
Point-buy lets you create the character before the game even begins; rolling lets you create the character throughout the story. YMMV.This is another false dichotomy, for the record. There's nothing preventing you from creating a point buy character throughout the story.Other people have addressed this more eloquently than I, but surely you recognize that there's some different effort involved in looking at a set of stats and envisioning a character, one you would never have considered playing, that you don't need when assigning attributes based on a pre-set idea of the character.
I can definitely agree with that, but to me that isn't the same as "Point-buy lets you create the character before the game even begins; rolling lets you create the character throughout the story."
If I roll stats and it suggests a character concept I hadn't considered, I still try to forge that new concept before the game starts.
Equally, even if I use point buy I can still have a character concept that involves a character whose story will evolve as the game progresses.
E.g. the son of an aging bandit Marag was brought up by thugs and trained to be a warrior and thief like his father, yet deep down he abhored violence against the innocent, even when justified he felt pangs of guilt. The turning point came when Marag discovered, amongst the latest haul, a number of scrolls detailing the teachings of the Deity Lathad. Lathad's teachings spoke of forgiveness and strength being used only when needed.
Marag, yearning to learn more has run away from his bandit clan and seeks out a priest of Marag to tutor him, and teach him how to forgive himself for his past violence.
So starting play I may have a Rogue or Fighter but who says that character is done?
Will Marag find a priest of Lathad who will perhaps put him on the path to being a Cleric or Paladin?
Will his past be held against him by a Paladin of Lathad who adheres too much to the letter of his code and not the spirit? Will Marag thus be attacked or arrested? Will this make him believe he cannot escape his past and encourage Marag to return to his clan?
Will Marag fall back into bandit ways with a mercenary bunch of adventurers, albeit trying to find ways to avoid violence (levels of Rogue with Stealth etc)?
Will he discover his clan are hunting him as a traitor and if he is to survive he must master the violence he abhores (pursue the Fighter class)?
And will Marag take the teachings of Lathad to heart and learn to forgive his father, perhaps risking returning to his clan to stand before his father and offer his love but ask for understanding that he must be his own man?
So when I bring on Marag as a level 1 Fighter or level 1 Rogue, can you really say that because I used Point Buy the character is done? That the character won't evolve and change over the course of play?
So while I can agree that random rolling of stats may prompt a character concept that perhaps wouldn't have come about had point buy been used, I can't agree with the idea that point buy doesn't allow a character to be created during the game.
Having to roll and get stuck with crap stats and no hp is like being told to roll for race and gender...
Really? 6 pages, 280 posts containing many, many examples how rolling doesn't stick you with crap stats(depending on your group), along with a vast array of rolling options, and we're back to this.
Yay progress.
If you don't like rolling, that's cool, but that attitude doesn't give you much to stand on. Attacking option B(rolling) because you like option A(point-buy); why not just say you like option A and be done with it?
Point-buy lets you create the character before the game even begins; rolling lets you create the character throughout the story. YMMV.This is another false dichotomy, for the record. There's nothing preventing you from creating a point buy character throughout the story.Other people have addressed this more eloquently than I, but surely you recognize that there's some different effort involved in looking at a set of stats and envisioning a character, one you would never have considered playing, that you don't need when assigning attributes based on a pre-set idea of the character....So while I can agree that random rolling of stats may prompt a character concept that perhaps wouldn't have come about had point buy been used, I can't agree with the idea that point buy doesn't allow a character to be created during the game.
Alright, poor wording on my part then. Let me try again. Again, this falls back on my personal style, not attacking anyone else's, but if I get to pick and choose all my stats perfectly how I want them to be before the game even starts, it's almost "too perfect". Point buy for me feels like one more level of Optimizing I really don't feel is necessary. Truthfully, my groups have never made as big of a deal out of generating stats as many of the posters in this thread. I realize we're playing a fantasy setting where characters are allowed to be "near perfect", but for me it just doesn't work. If I've got all my stats catered precisely the way I choose, that's just one more challenge already finished I don't get to work at in game, aside from obviously beefing up the already finished stats with more points along the way.
I enjoy seeing the character with a low INT learn a few things along the way, and eventually raise their score higher, even if it isn't "optimized", but just to show growth. My wife actually did that in our Ravenloft game here recently; she was playing a Gnome Bard with a 7 WIS, and role-played it to the letter. Upon reaching 4th level, she put her Ability Point into WIS to show that she's picked up on a few things since she was a newbie, and is wiser for it. She shifted how she role-plays her character; still not a lot of common sense, but not as impulsive as she once was.
I'll take any example of this over simply a Wizard slapping more points in INT any day. Sure, for arguments sake you could make a character with flawed stats, but we're right back to the "punching yourself in the face" example. Not likely to happen.
It seems to be an issue with Optimization in folks minds, at least to me. They want to be good as the can at what their character concept can be. Now, most of the folks that roll seem to let their players choose where the stats go after rolling, which allows folks to play the Class they like at least.
I think that is the biggest hang up with the Dice Roll method. Folks don't want to play a [insert class] chosen by a random roll. The Point Buy lets them tailor [insert class] they wish to play as good as it can be. Optimized.
If you point buy folks can put stats in any order after rolling , would that change your opinion? Just curious. Or is the chance of 'The Dice Gods' frowning on you still the issue?
Have Fun out there!
~ W ~
|
|
I'll take any example of this over simply a Wizard slapping more points in INT any day. Sure, for arguments sake you could make a character with flawed stats, but we're right back to the "punching yourself in the face" example. Not likely to happen.
I think this is where our disconnect is coming from - if and when I want to play a flawed character I will and that is whether I choose point buy or not - I have encountered a number of players who are willing to play a hero with flaws in terms abilities too, so for me at least it is likely to happen. My first PFS character was a Fighter with a CON of 8 and CHA of 14 and that was point buy by necessity (it was PFS).
And even if I play a Wizard using point buy with a decent INT score, there is still nothing stopping me spending my ability increases on Strength, or Wisdom or whatever - in fact if I have been able to set an acceptable INT at char gen due to using point buy, I am probably more likely to feel I can spend ability increases on other stats.
Basically, for me personally, nothing you have talked about could be done using random char gen but not point buy. For you it might be different and so if random rolling expands the possibilities in your game then great.
It seems to be an issue with Optimization in folks minds, at least to me. They want to be good as the can at what their character concept can be. Now, most of the folks that roll seem to let their players choose where the stats go after rolling, which allows folks to play the Class they like at least.
I think that is the biggest hang up with the Dice Roll method. Folks don't want to play a [insert class] chosen by a random roll. The Point Buy lets them tailor [insert class] they wish to play as good as it can be. Optimized.
If you point buy folks can put stats in any order after rolling , would that change your opinion? Just curious. Or is the chance of 'The Dice Gods' frowning on you still the issue?
Have Fun out there!
~ W ~
Most people I know do put the stats in any order after rolling. For me point buy is just easier to deal with. It does not mean I have never rolled stats, or that I won't again, but as a DM I won't put it out as the only option.
It is not an optimization issue. The reasons are scattered throughout the thread. One RP related one was that people want to use the stats to make the character they want. They don't want the stats to tell them what to make.
The thread is only 6 pages. It is not to much to read(not skim) before jumping to conclusions.
|
|
If you point buy folks can put stats in any order after rolling , would that change your opinion?
I guess I am one of the point buy folks as I prefer that method so I will answer.
When talking about random rolling and my dislike for it I was assuming you could put those results into any stat. Random rolling just seems like an extra potential difficulty I may face in trying to realise my character concept.
If I was forced to random roll and assign to stats in order, then if anything that might make me more inclined to try random rolling as long as the GM was prepared to write the scenarios around the characters we players generate.
With random roll and assign in order, I would go in knowing that I shouldn't even try to come up with a character concept before rolling the dice. As mentioned up thread I would actually be curiously about a char gen system that has a lot more randomisation (race, class, skills etc).
If a GM is running a published scenario, or one he has already written himself before knowing what characters he will get, then I would hate random roll, assign in order.
Equally, if I was creating a character to join an existing party where they wanted a particular character type - random roll and assign in order would again be a real problem for me "You need a Rogue but I rolled a Dex of 9 and Int of 10, still I have a great Strength of 18!" :(
This is a math based game. The numbers matter a lot. I think that making good decisions is key to any game. A bad player can tank a well made character, but that does not mean a good player can survive with a terribly made character. I would not have to care about my character at all to not develop any attachment, and most players I know are not 100% detached. They wont try to flip the table and key your car, but they don't like seeing their character die. I can't even take the time to sit down and make a character I don't care about.
I care about every char I make. They have backstory, motivations, etc, but if in the course of the story they die then that's what happens. I'm in the George RR Martin vein of thinking, these chars are being put into a variety of situations that they could die in, if it happens it happens. It is the hazard for putting myself into the situation.
It is a math based game, but there are more things to account for than base stats. What type of AC does my PC have, what weapon choices, what feats, what skills.
If your game is based solely on base stats... more power to you, but I for one ROLEplay my chars and base stats aren't needed for that.
Also if I were to make my char based off of 3d6 in order then everyone would be following that mold, and the game would be taking into account that. Saying my char wouldn't survive in your game is because you have your game based around a certain power level, though I still think I could give it hell before dying, if I died at all.
It is not an optimization issue. The reasons are scattered throughout the thread. One RP related one was that people want to use the stats to make the character they want. They don't want the stats to tell them what to make.The thread is only 6 pages. It is not to much to read(not skim) before jumping to conclusions.
Didn't think I 'jumped' to any conclusions. I was just asking if what I got from reading the thread was the correct. If putting your stats in the order you want is the big issue, I see why they choose Point Buy and I also see Random Rolling being the same.
Most point buys that I see, don't make Uber Characters. They make it so folks don't have to deal with bad rolls. I just wanted to know if Point Buy folks would be okay with Rolling if they got to chose the order the rolls went in.
I guess my Optimized description is only for a Class... not min maxing type. Sorry bout that.
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
I guess I am one of the point buy folks as I prefer that method so I will answer.When talking about random rolling and my dislike for it I was assuming you could put those results into any stat. Random rolling just seems like an extra potential difficulty I may face in trying to realise my character concept.
If I was forced to random roll and assign to stats in order, then if anything that might make me more inclined to try random rolling as long as the GM was prepared to write the scenarios around the characters we players generate.
With random roll and assign in order, I would go in knowing that I shouldn't even try to come up with a character concept before rolling the dice. As mentioned up thread I would actually be curiously about a char gen system that has a lot more randomisation (race, class, skills etc).
If a GM is running a published scenario, or one he has already written himself before knowing what characters he will get, then I would hate random roll, assign in order.
Equally, if I was creating a character to join an existing party where they wanted a particular character type - random roll and assign in order would again be a real problem for me "You need a Rogue but I rolled a Dex of 9 and Int of 10, still I have a great Strength of 18!" :(
Cool, thanks for the direct answer! Flexibility to come up with a character you like / or party needs is key sometimes.
I think in the next game I start, which should be in about a month or so, I will give the PCs the choice to Point Buy or Roll and see how it goes. I might come around, ya never know!
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
I'll take any example of this over simply a Wizard slapping more points in INT any day. Sure, for arguments sake you could make a character with flawed stats, but we're right back to the "punching yourself in the face" example. Not likely to happen.I think this is where our disconnect is coming from - if and when I want to play a flawed character I will and that is whether I choose point buy or not - I have encountered a number of players who are willing to play a hero with flaws in terms abilities too, so for me at least it is likely to happen. My first PFS character was a Fighter with a CON of 8 and CHA of 14 and that was point buy by necessity (it was PFS).
And even if I play a Wizard using point buy with a decent INT score, there is still nothing stopping me spending my ability increases on Strength, or Wisdom or whatever - in fact if I have been able to set an acceptable INT at char gen due to using point buy, I am probably more likely to feel I can spend ability increases on other stats.
Basically, for me personally, nothing you have talked about could be done using random char gen but not point buy. For you it might be different and so if random rolling expands the possibilities in your game then great.
I never said one could do what the other couldn't. As I've already said, this is a matter of preferences. I've said at least 3 or 4 times that these are just my opinions and my playstyle, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from whatever method they prefer. You prefer point buy, I prefer rolling. Done and done. If you want to argue mechanics then I concede right now.
This is a math based game. The numbers matter a lot. I think that making good decisions is key to any game. A bad player can tank a well made character, but that does not mean a good player can survive with a terribly made character. I would not have to care about my character at all to not develop any attachment, and most players I know are not 100% detached. They wont try to flip the table and key your car, but they don't like seeing their character die. I can't even take the time to sit down and make a character I don't care about.I care about every char I make. They have backstory, motivations, etc, but if in the course of the story they die then that's what happens. I'm in the George RR Martin vein of thinking, these chars are being put into a variety of situations that they could die in, if it happens it happens. It is the hazard for putting myself into the situation.
It is a math based game, but there are more things to account for than base stats. What type of AC does my PC have, what weapon choices, what feats, what skills.
If your game is based solely on base stats... more power to you, but I for one ROLEplay my chars and base stats aren't needed for that.
Also if I were to make my char based off of 3d6 in order then everyone would be following that mold, and the game would be taking into account that. Saying my char wouldn't survive in your game is because you have your game based around a certain power level, though I still think I could give it hell before dying, if I died at all.
Your AC, weapon choices, and so one are all affected by stats. I know you can try to specialize in archery with a negative modifier, but its not the norm. Stats don't help RP, but your character has survive in order to be RP'd. Now I know that rolling so poorly that death is imminent, is not the norm, but I don't even want to take the chance. In my next game I am allowing each individual player the choice to use point buy or roll since my players are of two different camps. If they roll all 18's, good for them. I won't tell them to reduce the stats.
I never said my game was based solely on stats, but the poster I responded too made it seem like stats did not matter. I was just countering that statement while also adding that not caring about a character is not the norm.
I would let you try the fighter. The thing that made me say that was the low constitution score, and I seem to get a +5 roll well when I am the DM. Low HP combined with good rolls on my side does not bode well for that fighter. Now if I roll so well that it starts to seem unfair(20, 20, 18, 17, 20, etc) then I might fudge a few rolls.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
EDIT: You ever do greater than 18d6? How well do you think it scales if you want more "uber" PC's?
It scales fine, Stefan; it's essentially point-buy.
Since it doesn't have any feel for "economy", it's a little less efficient than point-buy. (There will be many odd numbers, for example.) So I consider the 18d6 assignment-roll to produce characters about as powerful as a 15-point buy. Likewise, 24d6 would give you about a 20-point buy and 30d6 comes close to a 25-point buy.
As AdAstra points out, it's hard to get a really high stat. There are many reasons for this, but one reason is because you can't "buy down" stats you don't much care for; your characters are guaranteed to be at least mediocre in every aspect. One way to resolve this would be to use the 3.5 point-buy rules, that start down at 8 and require points to buy a stat up to 10.
It is not an optimization issue. The reasons are scattered throughout the thread. One RP related one was that people want to use the stats to make the character they want. They don't want the stats to tell them what to make.The thread is only 6 pages. It is not to much to read(not skim) before jumping to conclusions.
Didn't think I 'jumped' to any conclusions. I was just asking if what I got from reading the thread was the correct. If putting your stats in the order you want is the big issue, I see why they choose Point Buy and I also see Random Rolling being the same.
Most point buys that I see, don't make Uber Characters. They make it so folks don't have to deal with bad rolls. I just wanted to know if Point Buy folks would be okay with Rolling if they got to chose the order the rolls went in.
I guess my Optimized description is only for a Class... not min maxing type. Sorry bout that.
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
Some players choose to drop rolls into the negative to get points elsewhere. I have dropped mine to an 8 before, but I would never go below that.
I would play with rolling. I just don't prefer it even though I normally roll well. I feel sorry for the player whose rolls are nowhere near what mine are.|
|
I never said one could do what the other couldn't. As I've already said, this is a matter of preferences.
Apologies if I seemed overly argumentative (though I do enjoy a good debate).
I guess I took the "you" in the sentence below as a an address to the readership of this thread to suggst that no one is likely to make a character with flawed stats, I was merely countering that and providing a counter examples to back that up.
Sure, for arguments sake you could make a character with flawed stats, but we're right back to the "punching yourself in the face" example. Not likely to happen. Emphasis mine.
|
|
Here is a question I am curious to hear responses to...
For all those who like random ability scores, supposing you were running a D&D3.5 game using the 4d6 drop lowest method, arrange to suit with the explcicit re-roll rule of total modifiers of +0 or less and not stat higher than a 13.
3 players roll really well:
P1: 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 18
P2: 10, 12, 14, 18, 18, 18
P3: 12, 14, 16, 16, 17, 18
And then the fourth player rolls:
P4: 8, 8, 8, 12, 12, 14
Good enough to not warrant a re-roll according to the official rule
1) Would would as GM (assuming the other players were also in favour) ask player 4 to re-roll?
2) If you did ask player 4 to re-roll and he actually declined saying that he would feel like he was cheating, or that you were taking pity on him, would you be happy to run the game with those characters, despite the disparity in scores?
Here is a question I am curious to hear responses to...
For all those who like random ability scores, supposing you were running a D&D3.5 game using the 4d6 drop lowest method, arrange to suit with the explcicit re-roll rule of total modifiers of +0 or less and not stat higher than a 13.
3 players roll really well:
P1: 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 18
P2: 10, 12, 14, 18, 18, 18
P3: 12, 14, 16, 16, 17, 18And then the fourth player rolls:
P4: 8, 8, 8, 12, 12, 14
Good enough to not warrant a re-roll according to the official rule1) Would would as GM (assuming the other players were also in favour) ask player 4 to re-roll?
2) If you did ask player 4 to re-roll and he actually declined saying that he would feel like he was cheating, or that you were taking pity on him, would you be happy to run the game with those characters, despite the disparity in scores?
I wouldn't ask them to reroll. I would ask if they wanted to reroll, due to the imbalance of party stats. And yes, I have seen stats like those many times. Had more players rolled somewhere close to the low player, it might not be an issue. Maybe I'm an overly generous DM, but I would at least give them the offer to roll again if they wished.
If they didn't want to reroll, then that's their choice. Game runs as normal.
Here is a question I am curious to hear responses to...
For all those who like random ability scores, supposing you were running a D&D3.5 game using the 4d6 drop lowest method, arrange to suit with the explcicit re-roll rule of total modifiers of +0 or less and not stat higher than a 13.
3 players roll really well:
P1: 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 18
P2: 10, 12, 14, 18, 18, 18
P3: 12, 14, 16, 16, 17, 18And then the fourth player rolls:
P4: 8, 8, 8, 12, 12, 14
Good enough to not warrant a re-roll according to the official rule1) Would would as GM (assuming the other players were also in favour) ask player 4 to re-roll?
2) If you did ask player 4 to re-roll and he actually declined saying that he would feel like he was cheating, or that you were taking pity on him, would you be happy to run the game with those characters, despite the disparity in scores?
Ignoring the fact that, as long as everyone is using the same method of rolling dice and not cheating, such a disparity is statistically unlikely (becasue in any random system, even unlikely results do occasionally occur), my answers are easy.
1. I would not ask him to reroll, but I would offer it. Choice is all his. We always grant someone a single reroll - you're stuck with the second roll, though. That eliminates the problem of someone abandoning a character with good stats hoping to get one with great stats.
2. I would be very happy to run a game with those characters/ As I've said before, in any game I've been associated with in 30 plus years of gaming, a characters beginning stats have never, ever determined how successful that character is in the long run.
Actually, in some cases, those characters last longer and do better, because they know they are fragile and vulnerable, so they don't just charge in hacking against everything they meet. They are forced to be cautious and to think. I'm thinking in particular of a 3.5 campaign I ran a couple of years ago in which one guy rolled a 6 for his Constitution, and nothing above a 15. I had serious doubts that he could survive and offered him the reroll option, but he declined, seeing it as a challenge. To my surprise, that character, because he was played cautiously and well, made it all the way to 9th level before ever dying (and then was promptly raised). He was never a great combat star (but did chip in the occasional timely sneak attack), but was absolutely vital to the party in many other ways. A memorable and very successful character, in my opinion.