In an elaboration from an unrelated thread.
I have seen the point made that the spells Create Water and Purify Food and Drink are game breaking in that they 'invalidate' challenges introduced by the DM. To steal some examples, challenges like lacking water in the desert or finding food during a famine (unless everyone turned to cannibalism I'm not seeing how the spell even works in the case of famine, but let's move on) and/or plague (is it a food plague? anyway).
Sure, these are valid challenges based on DM experience and knowledge of the world at large. The problem is that world at large is often our non-magical world. One must take into account that Pathfinder/D&D is a world where magic does exist - including the ability to magically generate water or magically cleanse water and food. However, if we continue along the path that water in the desert or that rotting food is the only food in a siege/famine are challenges, then any solution, regardless of how it is conceived, is a solution to the challenge.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game characters advance in level by defeating monsters, overcoming challenges, and completing adventures—in so doing, they earn experience points (XP for short).
Overcoming the challenge should garner an award, not disappointment or anger from the DM about challenges being solved by basic magic spells. One should familiarize themself with the most obvious solutions when contriving a challenge and if the possible solutions are oversimple, then that simple solution should be factored into the common thread of the adventure and not treated as a challenge. The challenge should be shifted one over such that the solution isn't as simple. A desert challenge should take into account that Create Water is a cantrip and shift the actual challenge to the fact a desert is extremely hot. Endure Elements or other precautions should be all but necessary to stay alive. That is a challenge that is not as easy to overcome. And in the case of plague, why are the PCs themselves not at risk? Because the challenge is not overcomeable at low levels? Does Purify Food and Drink remove parasites? Again, is that not overcomeable at low levels?
At any rate, why does the simplicity of a spell invalidate the challenge. The challenge should either take into account the ease of use of possible solutions or accept any and all solutions as valid. One cannot get angry that the challenge is too easily solved without having taken into account the ease of use of all solutions. And what's more, if the solution is considered too easy, why is the solution attacked and not the challenge? One must either accept that it isn't really a challenge at that point. Why is the first thought to demonize the spell instead of reconsider the challenge itself?
Well, I think the point of contention in the other thread was unintended consequences.
Your post above is true and accounts for how things ought to work. There are two major sticking points on conceptual failure for a GM, though:
1) The game doesn't work the way reality works.
2) The game doesn't work the way it used to.
Neither of these is an insurmountable problem. Revising one's own expectations as a GM handles them both pretty quickly. But what we were discussing was the need to revise expectations. I personally feel that public discussion of these issues is really constructive, so long as it doesn't degenerate into bickering.
In the famine example, my GM was trying to tell a cool story, and reward people who invested in the survival skill, by making food scarce. The intention was to reward the ranger (the non-cleric in a two man party). However, there was a large supply of "tainted" foodstuffs, and he was expecting the cleric to be able to purify some but not all of these resources. Neither one of us saw infinite cantrips coming! (this was during the beta)
If we had, the GM could very easily have constructed a slightly different plot to achieve his goals.
So I'll hazard that this infinite cantrip issue is a problem of GM expectations. In the case of detect magic I think there are some obvious ambiguities that make it a real nuisance for the GM to arbitrate. That's all.
You've gone back and quoted the rule for XP. I personally don't use XP at all, and very few of the GMs I know do. There is an art to calibrate challenges and creating plots, and it can be frustrating when a ruleset zigs when you want to zag. Being an informed GM is the only worthwhile solution.
Power attack is the same kind of problem.
This weekend, I had to explain to a new Pathfinder player (old 3.5 player) that you Power Attack is at cross purposes with Cleave, even though the one is a pre-req for the other.
The change itself is fine, mechanically, although I have broader issues with feat pre-requisites (it's been discussed in other threads). I'm fine with the change. It's the violated expectation that's the problem.
This is why I think rules re-writes should be kept to a minimum in future. I'd rather see new options than keep relearning old ones.
In the mean time, the best thing to do is not complain about the changes, but learn them and call them out so other GMs and players don't make the same mistakes.
In the case of detect magic I think there are some obvious ambiguities that make it a real nuisance for the GM to arbitrate. That's all.
Detect Magic probably deserves its own thread. Though it could be examined somewhat here
You've gone back and quoted the rule for XP. I personally don't use XP at all, and very few of the GMs I know do. There is an art to calibrate challenges and creating plots, and it can be frustrating when a ruleset zigs when you want to zag. Being an informed GM is the only worthwhile solution.
Quoting it really had nothing to do with the fact it dealt with XP so much as it was a codified example where "overcoming challenges" is listed as something to reward.
Power attack is the same kind of problem.
Not so much. This isn't a "changes cause problems" thread in general, but specifically the effects of changes to cantrips on the metagame.
In the case of detect magic I think there are some obvious ambiguities that make it a real nuisance for the GM to arbitrate. That's all.Detect Magic probably deserves its own thread.
It's got several.
I think it's an interesting case, because a lot of creative GMs have come up with amazing solutions that don't involve changing the RAW at all. My favorite is "The Detector has to be in front, or else he'll just end up detecting the party..." Genius!
This forum is at its best when people are asking and giving help. Everything else feels like a waste of time to me.
I think it's an interesting case, because a lot of creative GMs have come up with amazing solutions that don't involve changing the RAW at all. My favorite is "The Detector has to be in front, or else he'll just end up detecting the party..." Genius!
I disagree and, in addition, assert this is an example of the DM looking at a way to "fix" the solution rather than reexamine the challenge the solution is being applied to.
EDIT: That is also a hold-over issue dealing with spells/skills not being specific enough in their effects. Which is another thread entirely.
At any rate, why does the simplicity of a spell invalidate the challenge. The challenge should either take into account the ease of use of possible solutions or accept any and all solutions as valid. One cannot get angry that the challenge is too easily solved without having taken into account the ease of use of all solutions. And what's more, if the solution is considered too easy, why is the solution attacked and not the challenge? One must either accept that it isn't really a challenge at that point. Why is the first thought to demonize the spell instead of reconsider the challenge itself?
There are some cases were the challenge that is so easily invalidated by a 1st level caster was a central themes in some myths/legends (which inspire RPGs), history (which inspire RPGs) and well known pieces of fiction (which inspire RPGs).
Turning the 'problem' around and find a new challenge for the same environment/situation is a good way to circumvent the issue, so are the new 'challenges' created by the mere presence of spellcaster in the first place.
But lets face it; even if these simple cantrips have a low impact on the life of adventurers, they do have a much bigger impact on the community at large. Assuming that there is a 1st level caster around each corner of a street basically invalidates some rather big themes upon which a good story could have revolved, and assuming that on the contrary, casters are rare enough to make these challenges real give tribes/culture with spellcasters an advantage that isn't easy to extrapolate. That, and we get into the low-magic not being fit for pathfinder argument all over again.
I know that one shouldn't try to rationalize the Pathfinder setting too much but still: magic is power. If it is true that power corrupts, then by extension infinite magic corrupts infinitely. Well, kind of...
'findel
Not so much. This isn't a "changes cause problems" thread in general, but specifically the effects of changes to cantrips on the metagame.
Fair enough. In so many words, we're agreeing that the confusion in the other conversation was because of overlapping issues. We can agree there right?
I think when a rule changes, it causes problems with expectation.
You're asserting, rightly, that some of the cantrips function quite nicely as infinite powers. I agree.
We could discuss the style of GMing where players are punished or diverted from solving problems instead of rewarded — that seems to be the spirit of your OP. However, I rarely if ever encounter that attitude.
Even in the above example where my cantrip "broke" the scenario (not the game, mind you), my GM rolled with it quite well and it was enjoyed by all. That doesn't mean it wasn't a problem, just that most problems can be overcome by a good GM.
So yes, you're right. The game is about overcoming challenges (for the players). It is also about designing challenges (for the GM) — then executing those challenges. Being under-informed during the design stage can cause problems during the execution. That's where this whole cantrip discussion lies.
There are some cases were the challenge that is so easily invalidated by a 1st level caster was a central themes in some myths/legends (which inspire RPGs), history (which inspire RPGs) and well known pieces of fiction (which inspire RPGs).
Then, you must accept what happens when you try to apply the rules of on fantasy world to the situations of another.
Turning the 'problem' around and find a new challenge for the same environment/situation is a good way to circumvent the issue, so are the new 'challenges' created by the mere presence of spellcaster in the first place.
Agreed. Probably.
But lets face it; even if these simple cantrips have a low impact on the life of adventurers, they do have a much bigger impact on the community at large. Assuming that there is a 1st level caster around each corner of a street basically invalidates some rather big themes upon which a good story could have revolved,
I shall posit a story is not a good story if it can't be adapted, or there is no attempt to adapt it, to accept the realities of the universe it is being told in.
and assuming that on the contrary, casters are rare enough to make these challenges real give tribes/culture with spellcasters an advantage that isn't easy to extrapolate. That, and we get into the low-magic not being fit for pathfinder argument all over again.
There is also often a core of "not understanding the intricacies of the details of the rules of the game itself" often at work in the cantrip opposition. Casters may NOT be around every corner in every town. But they MAY be, or probably are, in big enough cities.
It's like expecting a metropolis to have the same lowly amenities of a country hamlet.
Just something I do:
I come up with the challenge -- then I don't solve it. I don't even bother coming up with the solution. The players will come up with something and if they can't they tend to leave it alone.
My forcing them to my answer does them and myself a large injustice. I am insulting them by saying (in effect) that they can't come up with something I won't think of first, and I'm frustrating myself by trying to think up everything a group of 4~8 other people will think when presented with the problem.
So instead I just give them the problem. If their solution sounds like it could work I require a few rolls (possibly) and then let them solve it. Now I'm not frustrated with them not seeing the answer and they aren't pounding the ground in frustration because I keep saying, "nope that won't work either."
There are no invalid solutions. There are, however, unsatisfying solutions.
You want to tell a mountain climbing story. The rogue can have all the climbing skill in the world, the rest of the party can be well set up, and then the wizard simply produces a Wand of Spider Climb or simply teleports the gang to the mountain peak. *YAWN*
The trouble with all this is, it upstages one type of character and destroys one type of story. The benefit is that it also lets another type of story be told: Frodo and Sam didn't need to delay their quest to find food because they'd been given some magic elven power bars.
But there are plenty of ways around this without messing up the whole world. For example, you could say that the spell level of all Water spells is raised by one in a region tied to the elemental plane of Fire, such as some particularly hot desert. Ergo, no endless water fountains from clerics with at-will cantrips.
Alternately, you can use Locate Water in place of Create Water and something like Detect Poison in place of Purify Food and Water with the cleric able to make a Heal check to detect what degree of toxin is present in the food and if it can be removed by cooking or any other procedure.
My current campaign, I've redlined all Handy Haversacks, Bags of Holding and so on because I've disliked the inevitable tactic of adventurers of just stuffing everything into a portable hole and sorting it out later. And so far, it's worked just fine.
If, however, your DM doesn't want to do the stories where characters need to forage for food and so on it's perfectly fine to keep the spells as they are and not worry about it. Really depends on what you're doing.
You want to tell a mountain climbing story. The rogue can have all the climbing skill in the world, the rest of the party can be well set up, and then the wizard simply produces a Wand of Spider Climb or simply teleports the gang to the mountain peak. *YAWN*
Why is it yawn? That is an inherent part of the game and any story of challenge not taking it into account is not the fault of the spell or the spellcaster or the game.
But there are plenty of ways around this without messing up the whole world. For example, you could say that the spell level of all Water spells is raised by one in a region tied to the elemental plane of Fire,
Again, you are attacking the spell instead of accepting it and factoring it in as a given fact of the game when putting together the adventure/challenge/story. Pointing that out was the point of my OP.
Why is it yawn? That is an inherent part of the game and any story of challenge not taking it into account is not the fault of the spell or the spellcaster or the game.
You're both right. It is "yawn" if you want to have the risk of a mountain climbing scene. But the GM should also know whether or not the party will be challenged ahead of time. A GM who doesn't know about the wand when he writes the mountain scene is delinquent in his duties as GM. A player who deliberately obfuscates his gear to obviate entire encounters is being a jerk. If there's good intelligence on both sides, good encounters will result.
Encounter design must account for the party's capabilities. Even when running a module or AP, the GM must still design encounters if they want a specific result.
Now, saying a GM should never desire a specific result is a style of play issue. I'm sure total sandbox play works for some GMs, but sometimes I know what kind of story the players want and I can actually make it happen.
In my case, I've made my peace with spells that solve specific problems. After 5th level, and moreso after 7th level, you need supernatural challenges to meet supernatural characters. Once the campaign becomes a story about superheros, the GM needs to revise his expectations and tactics accordingly.
Of course, you can try to run a game that is not about superheros at those levels, but it is the baseline assumption and you need to do some invasive surgery to get it to work. I've tried that, and frankly, it isn't worth it (to me). Not when the comic-book superhero team format works so well at the table with four players each with different abilities.
Again, you are attacking the spell instead of accepting it and factoring it in as a given fact of the game when putting together the adventure/challenge/story. Pointing that out was the point of my OP.
I can attack a spell all I want. I'm the DM. I can Rule 0 out anything I don't want and Rule 0 in anything I do.
Certain spells are more broken or abusable than others. If I want a certain challenge in the world, I need to keep some solutions off the menu or otherwise restricted or else risk breaking suspension of disbelief.
This is not a new problem. It's been around since 1st editon. The Decanter of Endless Water is an amusing little item, but it's also something that would either be worth more than its weight in diamonds in a desert kingdom or else still only go for book price but then begs of the question of why desert kingdoms aren't irrigating their entire kingdoms via a few decanters.
My point was big cities probably WOULD. Some desert metropolis probably would have a city based around Decanters of Endless Water. Hell, maybe you are hired to track down a stolen Decanter from the Great City of Dustington.
Certain spells are more broken or abusable than others. If I want a certain challenge in the world, I need to keep some solutions off the menu or otherwise restricted or else risk breaking suspension of disbelief.
Every time you needed to climb something, Spider Climb, Fly, Levitate, etc would ALWAYS be the best solution. Once you get to the point that "magic is ruining my game by solving stuff it is designed to solve!" then you should be banning magic. And at that point, why are you playing this game instead of a different one that is much lower fantasy?
My point was big cities probably WOULD. Some desert metropolis probably would have a city based around Decanters of Endless Water.
Certain spells are more broken or abusable than others. If I want a certain challenge in the world, I need to keep some solutions off the menu or otherwise restricted or else risk breaking suspension of disbelief.Every time you needed to climb something, Spider Climb, Fly, Levitate, etc would ALWAYS be the best solution. Once you get to the point that "magic is ruining my game by solving stuff it is designed to solve!" then you should be banning magic. And at that point, why are you playing this game instead of a different one that is much lower fantasy?
It isn't really that binary Cartigan.
Plenty of people are capable of ignoring the nonsensical results that magic could create in the setting, just because it doesn't appeal to them. RPG settings are not real, and so it's easy for GMs and Players to say that some things don't happen just because they're not cool.
My campaign (it is Runelords) works just fine as a mid-low magic setting, even though there is evidence of magic literally everywhere, and some people would play the setting with much more of a magic society as you imply. It works because my players are more interested in participating in the story than calling out paradoxes.
You may be able to create irrigation systems with magic items in a high magic game, but doing so runs the risk of making magic less exceptional and possibly less fun for some people. Then again, some people find high magic worlds fun.
It isn't necessary to conclude that things might play out a certain way just because they could. It's a choice that is (wonderfully) left for the GM and his players.
There are these thought experiments that people have online, and they're somewhat entertaining, but they really don't have any bearing on how I play the game. I would never want that to happen either.
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Bottom line: If the story is being disrupted by mechanics, you have to change one of them. If the mechanics don't suit the story you want to tell, use a different set of mechanics. If the story doesn't fit the mechanics you want to use, you have to change the story.
Look at that, you're both right. *waits for the internet to implode*
Bottom line: If the story is being disrupted by mechanics, you have to change one of them. If the mechanics don't suit the story you want to tell, use a different set of mechanics. If the story doesn't fit the mechanics you want to use, you have to change the story.
Look at that, you're both right. *waits for the internet to implode*
I know. It's quite amusing to see a civil discussion. It feels rather like a ticking timebomb, doesn't it?
Where's Sebastian gone to?
Why is it yawn? That is an inherent part of the game and any story of challenge not taking it into account is not the fault of the spell or the spellcaster or the game.
You want to tell a mountain climbing story. The rogue can have all the climbing skill in the world, the rest of the party can be well set up, and then the wizard simply produces a Wand of Spider Climb or simply teleports the gang to the mountain peak. *YAWN*
At least with that example, you need a (semi) competent caster (ability to cast 2nd level spell and craft magical items) to make the climbing skill obsolete. In either case, any casting of spider climb, levitate or teleport involves resources that are finite and potentially expensive (wands and other devices). As Cartigan said, the reality of these spells come along the medieval fantasy setting.
Personally, I have less problems with finite and expensive solutions that require a competent spellcaster, than infinite spells performed by a neophyte caster fresh out of the monastery (or arcane academy) with lesser implication for PCs but that can still change the fate of a nation.
'findel
He's trolling other people who are trying to have legitimate discourse. ^_^
Well, you're first mistake is assuming this is "legitimate". How can it be? By the very laws of the universe (I should know, I wrote them), I'm the center of everything. So if I'm not around to take part, then it doesn't really matter anyway.
well, there goes that conversation ;)
For those of us who aren't enthusiastic about running our games in the Tippyverse, and who also cringe a bit at saying "oh, these spells don't work anymore because I said so" this is what I will suggest:
A slight redefinition of magic. If an area is suffering from the plague, why is that? Sure, we might say "lack of proper sanitation" but the commoners would say they've been cursed by [god/demon/thingy]. Why not let that be true? All attempts at curing the disease require a caster level check, DC [high]. This mechanic works great for the various outer planes, so why not ours?
Ditto for the desert: why is it a desert? Because it suppresses water and cold. That's WHY it's a desert. (Don't give me any lip about climate patterns!) The same explanation for why it doesn't rain is the EXACT same reason as to why you can't cast Create Water.
In the Forgotten Realms (can we talk about that here?) they ruled that the Underdark was so full of twisty caverns that the twisty caverns twisted magic, and all teleportation spells fail (or require being high level). The Forgotten Realms didn't get rid of the spell "Teleport" they only got rid of it for the Underdark, because that's where they wanted to tell that sort of story.
A little in-game explanation can go a long way to making people feel better about the rules "changing" so that the setting can stay intact.
Well, create water... A cleric can't sate a city, not even five clerics can do that. The point is in using the adepts for the other temple staff, since they don't have unlimited cantrips. And remember that it's a divine spell, so if the gods decide to punish a city with thirst for it's transgressions, then the will. And if a desert is known for water problems caused by more than just hot environment... just remember that in a magical world you can also have magical locations. Just don't overdo this too much and the players will take it IMO.
Detect Magic is easy to fool, like really easy. If one inch of any metal blocks it, than a panel with a tiny hole is just what you need to cover a ray trap. to hide ring of three wishes you only need a smallish metal wheel that can fall from mine equipment, or just a box inlaid with lead. And don't forget that the spell magical aura exists. After being a target of magic item thieves or scry and fry attacks, the PCs themselves may quickly find-out that nonmagic looking items quite desireable to have.
A slight redefinition of magic. If an area is suffering from the plague, why is that? Sure, we might say "lack of proper sanitation" but the commoners would say they've been cursed by [god/demon/thingy]. Why not let that be true? All attempts at curing the disease require a caster level check, DC [high]. This mechanic works great for the various outer planes, so why not ours?Ditto for the desert: why is it a desert? Because it suppresses water and cold. That's WHY it's a desert. (Don't give me any lip about climate patterns!) The same explanation for why it doesn't rain is the EXACT same reason as to why you can't cast Create Water.
Pure genius! Taking the "its a magical world so things would be different" argument to its logical (and neat) conclusion.... Love it!
And how do you present this solution in a more palatable way to your players?
While I like the logic behind it still sounds like 'spell doesn't work 'cos I said so' to the players (even though, I understand, that is not what it is). How would you male it fluffy and interesting?
The same explanation for why it doesn't rain is the EXACT same reason as to why you can't cast Create Water.
If we pretend magic works like well-defined weather patterns.
In the Forgotten Realms (can we talk about that here?) they ruled that the Underdark was so full of twisty caverns that the twisty caverns twisted magic, and all teleportation spells fail (or require being high level).
I thought it was the "lack of ultimate line of effect."
And how do you present this solution in a more palatable way to your players?
Try some Bacon Salt.
The same explanation for why it doesn't rain is the EXACT same reason as to why you can't cast Create Water.If we pretend magic works like well-defined weather patterns.
Well, we 'pretend' a lot already...
But Freund is bringing a good point: weather patterns may have nothing to do with the presence of a desert; desertification may have happened because water doesn't get there, mundane or otherwise... Personally, I've been playing that spells cannot be cast outside their 'natural environment', and that create water cannot be cast in a desert outside an oasis the same way that a fireball is ineffective under water or that a whale cannot be summoned on land or in the air.
If magic is that common, it's not a far stretch to assume that many environments and phenomenon are in themselves magical...
And how do you present this solution in a more palatable way to your players?
While I like the logic behind it still sounds like 'spell doesn't work 'cos I said so' to the players (even though, I understand, that is not what it is). How would you male it fluffy and interesting?
Before even driving the heroes there (although it's all planed) you inform them of some strange places in the world... and when they finally have to brave the perils of the land, the will feel like real heroes, because they've accomplished to survive in a known deadly place. And make sure to make this into an awe-inspiring tale, which the commoners would be eager to hear a few times, even if it doesn't bring the PCs more than a few drinks, it will support the feeling of achieving something great.
The same explanation for why it doesn't rain is the EXACT same reason as to why you can't cast Create Water.If we pretend magic works like well-defined weather patterns.Well, we 'pretend' a lot already...
But Freund is bringing a good point: weather patterns may have nothing to do with the presence of a desert; desertification may have happened because water doesn't get there, mundane or otherwise... Personally, I've been playing that spells cannot be cast outside their 'natural environment', and that create water cannot be cast in a desert outside an oasis the same way that a fireball is ineffective under water or that a whale cannot be summoned on land or in the air.
If magic is that common, it's not a far stretch to assume that many environments and phenomenon are in themselves magical...
Of course, why wouldn't create water work in the desert? Magical dessication? Then how can ANYTHING exist there?
Of course, why wouldn't create water work in the desert? Magical dessication? Then how can ANYTHING exist there?The same explanation for why it doesn't rain is the EXACT same reason as to why you can't cast Create Water.If we pretend magic works like well-defined weather patterns.Well, we 'pretend' a lot already...
But Freund is bringing a good point: weather patterns may have nothing to do with the presence of a desert; desertification may have happened because water doesn't get there, mundane or otherwise... Personally, I've been playing that spells cannot be cast outside their 'natural environment', and that create water cannot be cast in a desert outside an oasis the same way that a fireball is ineffective under water or that a whale cannot be summoned on land or in the air.
If magic is that common, it's not a far stretch to assume that many environments and phenomenon are in themselves magical...
Well, it eats the adventurers :D We're just talking magic water creation, not that there can't be holes in the effect. That's where the oases exist.
Well, it eats the adventurers :D We're just talking magic water creation, not that there can't be holes in the effect. That's where the oases exist.
I don't mean "how can anything exist there because there is no water" I mean "why doesn't the magical dessication kill you outright because you are made of mostly water"
Or you know, it prevents you from sweating and therefore you overheat and die.
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Of course, why wouldn't create water work in the desert? Magical dessication? Then how can ANYTHING exist there?The same explanation for why it doesn't rain is the EXACT same reason as to why you can't cast Create Water.If we pretend magic works like well-defined weather patterns.Well, we 'pretend' a lot already...
But Freund is bringing a good point: weather patterns may have nothing to do with the presence of a desert; desertification may have happened because water doesn't get there, mundane or otherwise... Personally, I've been playing that spells cannot be cast outside their 'natural environment', and that create water cannot be cast in a desert outside an oasis the same way that a fireball is ineffective under water or that a whale cannot be summoned on land or in the air.
If magic is that common, it's not a far stretch to assume that many environments and phenomenon are in themselves magical...
I think the disconnect exists because some players try to extend the rules to be "Hard and Fast Physics of Real Life(TM)" rather than "Suggestions for How To Resolve Story Conflicts".
When you're looking at a book of Rules as the end-all-be-all part of the game, you're seeing the same object differently than someone who views it as a collection of characters and potential story lines. There's no normative judgment implied there, just an observation of different points of view.
Personally, I love the idea of Unlimited Cantrips and Orisons. Create Water, Detect Magic, and Mending have seen a LOT of use in our games, from bathing after/during an adventure, having constant magic sensors, and fixing pieces of treasure found in a damaged state. As far as "Magical Economy" goes, it simply doesn't fly. If the PC's want to play Merchants and Accountants, they'll have to deal with the NPC's in a similar vein; if it continues in that track, I'll hand over the DM reins.
That, more than anything else, is motivation for players NOT to push this system so hard. Sure, you can twink everything in every little way, gaining "ultimate power" with clever application of Cantrips, Planar Binding, or any other "Super Tactic of the Week," but I am perfectly free to say "Not in my game" to your suggestion. Want that crazy set-up to occur, fine, what are the character generation rules and when are we playing?
As far as "Magical Economy" goes, it simply doesn't fly. If the PC's want to play Merchants and Accountants, they'll have to deal with the NPC's in a similar vein; if it continues in that track, I'll hand over the DM reins.
That, more than anything else, is motivation for players NOT to push this system so hard. Sure, you can twink everything in every little way, gaining "ultimate power" with clever application of Cantrips, Planar Binding, or any other "Super Tactic of the Week," but I am perfectly free to say "Not in my game" to your suggestion. Want that crazy set-up to occur, fine, what are the character generation rules and when are we playing?
That magic is inherent in the economy is another discussion.
Again you are getting off on the "your spells are solving the problems I introduced into the game!" but to a much more intricate extent - "So if we but a boat, can we use create water to power the water wheel? Or planar bind a djinn/air elemental to make it fly?". How "clever" is it that Spider Climb solves a "get up the mountain" problem? Or that Feather Fall solves the "how are we going to get down this gorge" problem? Or that Teleport/those magic horses/whatever solves the "how are we ever going to get to X place in time!" problem? The point is that it isn't clever. There is no intricate whipping of the game rules to make these solutions fly. These spells were built into the game for this specific purpose. Is an Evoker or Healing Mule now the only spellcaster allowed in anyone's game because all the other abilities from the different schools of magic solve arbitrary challenges introduced into the game without consideration of the simple "the designers solved this problem by writing X spell" solution. Hell, even healing and disease/poison removal are in the same vein but completely overlooked because of the massive damage. Though poison and disease can try to be shoe-horned into the "nope, magic doesn't solve it. There is a - uhh, other magic involved. Yep that's it."And even in your problem, the lean is towards punishing or discouraging in-depth, magic-based solutions to fabricated problems because thinking of how the magic solution affects the outcome in a completely unrealized way is too difficult. Why can't I bind an air elemental to my ship and fly it around? Does D&D have some factored in level of "too awesome, not allowed"?
Well, it eats the adventurers :D We're just talking magic water creation, not that there can't be holes in the effect. That's where the oases exist.I don't mean "how can anything exist there because there is no water" I mean "why doesn't the magical dessication kill you outright because you are made of mostly water"
Or you know, it prevents you from sweating and therefore you overheat and die.
Fort saves against desert hazards inceased DCs increased, local organisms being adapted having a racial bonus, effect making a difference between unattended water and body fluids, which allow will or fortitude saves to resist heat dealing normal damage (representing the dessication) as opposed to the temporary hp dealt by heat normally. Just toy with the thing a little and you can have an environment that kills normal people, but allows remarkable individuals and those who are well prepared to survive passing through. What if the effect doesn't extend underground and there are some locals sheltered in caves, forming a perilous caravan route with stops being warred for by humans and monsters constantly... the possibilities are great and it all can make the world feel even more exciting.
Fort saves against desert hazards inceased DCs increased,
Maybe, but I don't think there is quite a high enough DC to factor in "you can't sweat."
local organisms being adapted having a racial bonus,
I suppose you could have a local organism that isn't water based. Of course, why would it exist? Has the place, literally, always been a magically dessicated wasteland? Maybe it is just inhabited by Warforged.
Just toy with the thing a little and you can have an environment that kills normal people, but allows remarkable individuals and those who are well prepared to survive passing through. What if the effect doesn't extend underground and there are some locals sheltered in caves, forming a perilous caravan route with stops being warred for by humans and monsters constantly... the possibilities are great and it all can make the world feel even more exciting.
And at that point, we are back to banning Create Water for no good reason other than it automatically gives you water.
Magical dessication IS occuring. The magic prevents water from being created and constently dries the environment (to a degree, not absolute). Thus, you ARE being dessicated, and need to drink more water to survive. If the water is open to the air (Line of Effect), it will evaporate AND be magically dessicated. In some areas (Oasis) the effect is being negated by [insert plot point here].
You wouldn't be able to get to an oasis because you wouldn't be able to drink water and you wouldn't be able to sweat. Or rather you would sweat and it would have no effect from being destroyed by magical dessication.
The arid wasteland exists close to the Elemental Plane of Fire, and so the denizins are all fire based? It also helps explain why water spells don't work (opposition elements).I suppose you could have a local organism that isn't water based. Of course, why would it exist? Has the place, literally, always been a magically dessicated wasteland? Maybe it is just inhabited by Warforged.
That's one possibility. Still doesn't explain why anyone would or could go there.
I have never had a problem with magic trivializing certain problems. That is the whole point of being a utility caster. The gap that would have taken a dozen skill checks and some dangerous moments to cross becomes trivial with a mass fly. Im ok with that because that is what the player is trying to accomplish, he or she is trying to be batman. To deny that outright or get upset because the player is succeeding in their goals is a very arogant thing for a dm to do. Tailor your adventure to what the players are capable of. If you are not willing or able to do that you deserve the disappointment of having your challenges bypassed.
Adventure hooks don't bypass the desert will kill you. Maybe Endure Elements or Create Water... but wait! Look here, we have come back full circle to "magic is solving the challenges my adventure hook contains to challenge the players!"
I have never had a problem with magic trivializing certain problems. That is the whole point of being a utility caster.
Exactly my point
Unless you are going to ban all schools but Evocation (and maybe Necromancy), you are going to have magic providing the solution to a challenge. The entire point of most schools is to do something useful or solve some problem with magic.
Just something I do:
I come up with the challenge -- then I don't solve it. I don't even bother coming up with the solution. The players will come up with something and if they can't they tend to leave it alone.
My forcing them to my answer does them and myself a large injustice. I am insulting them by saying (in effect) that they can't come up with something I won't think of first, and I'm frustrating myself by trying to think up everything a group of 4~8 other people will think when presented with the problem.
So instead I just give them the problem. If their solution sounds like it could work I require a few rolls (possibly) and then let them solve it. Now I'm not frustrated with them not seeing the answer and they aren't pounding the ground in frustration because I keep saying, "nope that won't work either."
There is some truth to this. One of my biggest failures as a NOOB DM is that I would try to force the players to solve a problem a certain way. This causes frustration for both players and DM.
The other side is that you have to look at the challenge you have created and figured how much of a challenge it really is. To do this you have to come up with a few solutions to the challenge.
Adventure hooks don't bypass the desert will kill you. Maybe Endure Elements or Create Water... but wait! Look here, we have come back full circle to "magic is solving the challenges my adventure hook contains to challenge the players!"
I have never had a problem with magic trivializing certain problems. That is the whole point of being a utility caster.Exactly my point
Unless you are going to ban all schools but Evocation (and maybe Necromancy), you are going to have magic providing the solution to a challenge. The entire point of most schools is to do something useful or solve some problem with magic.
It depends.
Take the mountain climbing example. Unless the caster has a wand of spider climb they are only going to be able to put spider climb on a few people. this becomes its own sort of challenge.
Do you put spider climb on your fighter or scout and have them trail blaze? Put it on the weakest climber so they don't slow the group down?
What if you have to climb longer than a few minutes?
As long as magic is a finite resource, things will be reasonably balanced. This is why the change to 0 level spells was a big deal, it made a finite resource infinite. I think the change was a good idea overall, but it does require quite a bit of rethinking on how to handle certain types of encounters.