I came upon the Lunge feat. Which allows you to add +5 ft. reach to your melee attacks until your turn ends when you attack, but giving you a -2 penalty to AC in the meantime.
Lunging Strike from Player's Handbook 2 allows, as a full-round action, one attack with +5 ft. reach. No other penalties. Clearly, Lunge is a better feat choice over the other in more than one way.
Both have the same exact prerequisites, which leads me to believe a Paizo member was trying to upgrade an existing WotC feat.
Since I use a 3.5e/Pathfinder hybrid game, I like to use WotC's material as a default set whenever I encounter a repeat (which seems to be getting more common, sadly).
I don't know which of these to use in my games. Or should I keep both, despite being only very slightly different?
Personally I can see the realism behind keeping it as a full-round action.
It should take timing, focus, and some accuracy to try and stretch that far out to reach an enemy you normally shouldn't be able to reach.
Lunge makes it seem like the character's arms are like Stretch-Arm-Strong and making just as accurate swings, and a lot of them, too. I really wouldn't even know how to describe that, especially with trying to explain why an AoO couldn't be pulled off with the extra reach.
I don't see a mechanical or realistic reason why the new feat shouldn't be.
Realism arguments are always dubious in this game, but as it happens as a 6' tall man I can hit something more than 7.5 feet away from my center of gravity if I'm willing to go off-balance a bit.
Small characters and light weapons would strain the credulity of it, but who says your center of gravity has to remain at the exact center of your space during the turn?
Mechanically, melee combatants need powers like this. They need them to be worth taking and worth using. Casters can do so much, I don't mind the melee characters tapping into a plausible and useful battlefield control ability.
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After just finishing a campaign in which a number of flying Large creatures would attack the PCs from above them and just out of their reach, I can assure you that Lunge was a highly desired feat for the last 2 books.
(Legacy of Fire. Flying efreet = hard to hit when you can't fly, while they're smacking you with their melee weapons)
Sadly Lincoln, it's not really a battlefield control ability at all.
It grants extra reach sure, which will either allow a bigger whirlwind attack, or allow a melee guy to get off a full attack on a target whom he couldn't have reached otherwise, but that's about it.
Honestly, I think the feat should have lasted through the whole turn, and allowed use with AoO's. Then it would have been a solid feat, instead of a situational tool (useful occasionally, but really nothing your rushing to get)
You're right. Oh well.
I guess they can't have nice things.
After just finishing a campaign in which a number of flying Large creatures would attack the PCs from above them and just out of their reach, I can assure you that Lunge was a highly desired feat for the last 2 books.
See now, that is a phenomenal idea.
I think it's a perfectly good feat, and it gives the combat characters ways to stay effective against enemies with reach. As compared to Lunging Strike? Well I'd never bother with Lunging Strike because getting just one attack ... no, just not worth a feat. Lunge has a lot more uses, it's worth taking.
My personal, very general suggestion, to take or leave, is to generally use PF feats where they are similar to a WotC feat, since the PF feats have usually been playtested and adjusted for use with the PF rules.
WotC splats have a lot of cool feats, but I have a feeling some of them were not playtested as much in the rush to get them printed. We know most core PF feats were playtested because, in many cases, we were the ones who playtested them. :)
Again, 2 cents, grain of salt, etc. etc.
As regards the Lunge feat itself, I rather like it. It would be cool if it extended your reach till the end of your NEXT turn so you could make reach AOOs with it, but I have a feeling nightmares a la those caused by 3.5's spiked chain would recur.
Lunge can be useful in a number of situations--not only to attack flying creatures, but also Large (tall) creatures like giants. You can attack from the edge of his threatened area and then 5' step out of it if you need to back up for any reason (say if you're a meleeing spellcaster and want to 5' step to back up and heal or buff yourself (this very specific example comes from a bad giant situation I was in with my 3.0 melee cleric)), whereas otherwise you would be toe to toe with the giant and a 5' step would still keep you in his threat range. It IS situational, but a clever person can find a number of situations that will apply.
You can take both for one attack +10 ft reach in a full action, -2 AC.
They have different names.
Not that it would be useful in most cases.
Lunge is "overpowered" when compared to an incredibly weak feat, yes ;p
I realize this thread is pretty old but I'm seriously looking into getting lunge for my dwarven ranger character and I realized there are at least 3 combat maneuvers it works fantastic with:
Disarm
Trip
Dirty Trick (from the Advanced Player's Guide)
All of these provoke an attack of opportunity if you don't have the appropriate 'Improved...' feat, which of course has the prerequisite of the combat expertise feat. So if I want to be a disarm specialist I can take the combat expertise feat now, and then wait two more levels until my next feat so I can finally take improved disarm as well. Likewise with trip or dirty trick. Or...I could take lunge and allow myself to do all three without subjecting myself to an AoO.
Of course, you don't get the +2 to the maneuver that the 'Improved...' feat provides, but the really big advantage is in avoiding the AoO. You still technically provoke an AoO, but if you lunge in and out to do the disarm, trip or dirty trick, you can remain out of the threat range of your (medium-sized) opponent, so they can't attack you. In my case the dwarven ranger has giants as his favored enemy and he'll be attacking with a reach weapon (a ranseur, +2 to disarm) - same difference! So with one feat (lunge) the ranger can attempt a disarm, a trip or a dirty trick, all without subjecting himself to an AoO. From my standpoint this is the primary reason lunge is a fantastic feat.
I would seriously disagree with that assessment of the rules, myself. If you consider it, an attack of opportunity is when you place yourself in a vulnerable position: lunging into a square to attack the next clearly places you in a position to be attacked even if the other person does not have the Lunge feat, because although you are moving in and back quickly, for the important part of the action - when you make yourself vulnerable - you are in the threat range of the other person. If your hand or foot can reach his square to grapple or trip him, then logically he can hit your hand.
If you have Improved X, and this protects you from AoOs, great. Otherwise ... nah, I wouldn't let you get away with it in my game.
Check this out:
Does Lunge Make You Immune to AoOs?
I'm definitely no rules expert, and I am *not* telling anyone how to run their own game, but the consensus seems to indicate that lunge makes you 'immune' to AoO's. I do kind of like the idea of allowing a sunder or disarm AoO - that at least makes sense, but it's not actually in the rules as written. By RAW, lunge seems to allow you to bypass the AoO provoked by attempting a disarm, trip or dirty trick.
Their answers are 'by RAW yes, but it makes it silly that you can do an unarmed grapple on something without Improved Grapple and it cannot AoO you' which is basically what I said.
Edit: but that's hardly an official ruling - I guess the thing to do is pose it for the Paizo team.
Playing a swashbuckler from Tome of Secrets in a Kingmaker game I am all in favour of Lunge stopping AoOs but can see why those who have worked their way up the 'Improved...' tree might object. You pays your money and you takes your choice...
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Who cares about Lunge, using Reach Weapons or Enlarge Person does the same thing.
Paizo`s only answer is Strike Back (Feat) but that requires a READIED ATTACK, i.e. doesn`t apply to AoO`s. Honestly, the Feat seems like it would be alot more balanced and worthwhile if it DID apply on AoO`s, so maybe that`s a question of RAI/RAW/Errata.
But I don`t have a problem with people non-specialized in maneuvers to be able avoid the AoO via specialized equipment/spell/feat scenarios though they still don`t benefit from the CMB bonuses that the maneuver feats grant.
Well, as for me personally, the only three combat maneuvers I could imagine working this way with lunge are the ones I've listed - disarm, trip and dirty trick.
I don't see how you could possibly lunge and grapple someone - that would mean that at the end of your attack you have actually moved another 5 feet somehow, not just lunged. Likewise, it would be great to use lunge with bullrush, charge, overrun, drag or reposition, but it seems to me that it doesn't make sense with any of those options.
So I agree with what you're saying about grapple, as well as most of the combat maneuvers - I feel like you have to be right up on someone to grapple them, or drag or reposition, etc., so I'm not expecting to even try to use those with lunge. But disarm, trip and dirty trick? They actually make sense to me - a quick intrusion into the opponent's threatened square and then right back out would allow for those.
I don't see how you could possibly lunge and grapple someone - that would mean that at the end of your attack you have actually moved another 5 feet somehow, not just lunged.
No it wouldn`t mean that...
AFTER a succesful Grapple which you executed with your Reach (Enlarge Person is no different than a Medium creature with Lunge here)THE TARGET IS MOVED adjacent to you, you yourself are not moving to a different square, THEY ARE, which is how Grapple currently works with every single monster with Reach.
So I agree with what you're saying about grapple, as well as most of the combat maneuvers - I feel like you have to be right up on someone to grapple them, or drag or reposition, etc.,
You do unless you are any typical Size Large creature with Reach, or Enlarge Person`d to simulate such, or have a Feat allowing you the same reach as such, or have a weapon which can deliver such maneuvers at reach (e.g. man-catcher grappling pole arm, which could probably drag/push as well, Barbarian Knockback/Knockdown can Bullrush/Trip via any weapon including all Reach Weapons).
While I think an Errata allowing Strike Back to also work for purposes of AoO`s would be a good idea, I don`t think Lunge is fundamentally unbalancing to the game. At the most, I guess you can say it is good for characters who want to spend a Feat so as not be scared to try every single maneuver, while not actually being especially good at them.
I don`t really see any controvery, Spring Attack already gives precedence for avoiding an AoO, so why should it matter if Lunge les you? Besides Whirlwinding/Cleaving more enemies (which are specialized usages needing more Feats, and not inherent usages of the Lunge Feat itself), bypassing AoO`s (e.g. of creatures whose reach is normally greater than yours) seems the main usage of the Lunge Feat in the first place... Or from another perspective, characters who are more adept at combat techniques involving quick tactical movement (as represented by the Lunge Feat, as opposed to Spell Focus or Boon Companion) can avoid un-Improved Maneuver AoO`s against SOME creatures (those whose reach is less than the Lunge reach). Great.
Funnily, previous feedback I`ve seen/heard about PRPG Lunge is disappointment because it doesn`t increase threat range...
So I agree with what you're saying about grapple, as well as most of the combat maneuvers - I feel like you have to be right up on someone to grapple them, or drag or reposition, etc., so I'm not expecting to even try to use those with lunge. But disarm, trip and dirty trick? They actually make sense to me - a quick intrusion into the opponent's threatened square and then right back out would allow for those.
Yes, if you are using a weapon to disarm, trip or pull your dirty trick, I agree (reluctantly mind you!) that lunge makes sense to use and should avoid AoO. After all, reach weapons can do so.
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I play an 11th lvl Bard7/Rogue4, with lunge, and let me tell you, with a long spear Lunge rocks. Add the whip 15', and now with lunge can hit 20'...wow.
So, usually first round I am Bard Inspire Courage as move, Lunge Trip with whip as attack, and can hit 20'. With proper placement in the surprise round or just proper placement in general, I can nail some dude and take 0 liability. Further, once in combat, with other feats, can safely lean in with 15' reach on the spear and pokey poke with little recourse. I have yet to be hit for very much at all...and when the goons get in close to me, expeditious retreat makes it all happen again :D
Lunge is great.
Check this out:
*sniffle*
My little thread lives on.
*a single manly tear rolls down my cheek*