I have been working on this class on and off for a while, trying to create a class that has the classic ninja tropes and fits in with the other classes, and has the customization options to allow for each ninja to be different. BUT, I am probably too close to this class to see where it might be out of whack. Take a look and tell me what comes to mind :D
Seems to powerful to me, but I could be wrong. I just never liked the ninja.
Thanks for the comment, guys!
The comment about hidden body helps a lot. What you described is really what I intended to have happen, so its good to know now how to write that better. Losing the Dex bonus to AC makes a lot of sense too.
Deceptive strike is meant to be somewhere between favored enemy and sneak attack. Generally, spending a Ki point on deceptive attacks should get you damage equivalent to an above average sneak attack roll, but it of course drains resources. The extra bonus to hit allows them to hit nearly as well as fighter when fighting dirty, and gives them a modest bonus to combat maneuvers. It encourages the ninja to use combat maneuvers to keep an enemy off guard, and prone to more deceptive strikes, disarms and trips being a particularly favored with their weapon selection. I saw some pretty neat Kyoketsu Shoge videos on youtube as inspiration.
As for being powerful, I think it looks like the ninja has a lot of class features and he does, but no more so than a monk. Hopefully the class features aren't stepping beyond their scope at any given level. I was a little worried about giving them Death Strike (a direct analog to the assasssin's Death Attack), but a monk could easily multiclass into assassin at level 6, so at level 11 it seemed fairly level appropriate.
Overall I rather like it really. Although it inherited some of the monk's flaws (like having a dimension door ability, meaning it can't do s&~% after it uses it, and having to spend more ki points than it really has available for some of it's cool options) it came out fairly well.
The Ryu's seem like a really flavorful, relatively balanced way to differentiate between Ninja schools/clans.
I give it 4 out of 5 stars.
I think the Ki points amount is ok, but having played monks before, I never go without taking an Extra Ki feat. 3 extra Ki points is pretty ... key :D
You can check my Ninja at mediafire.com/ElghinnLighbringer for comparison of ideas.
Rokugan campaign guide, by AEG, had a ninja class I would advise looking over it, it may be a bit old, but it might help.
yeah, I just meant that it would be something to look over and consider, also standard conversion he can have a d10 hp with this ninja, I just thought that was cool, when i updated it i gave it access to rouge talent every even level and the ability to sack one of those for evasion starting level 4
Here's a version of the ninja I came up with a while ago.
Ninja
BAB: +¾
Good Saves: Reflex
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge dungeoneering, Knowledge history, Knowledge local, Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, Use Magic Device.
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Intelligence modifier.
Ninja are proficient in all simple weapons, plus the kama, katana (bastard sword), kukri, longsword, nunchaku, sai, scimitar, short sword, shuriken, siangham, Ninja are not proficient in any armor or shields.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. AC Bonus, Ki Pool, Ki Reserve Power, Sudden Strike +1d6, Trapfinding
2. Evasion, Talent
3. Sudden Strike +2d6, Poison Use
4. Talent, +1 AC
5. Sudden Strike +3d6
6. Talent
7. Sudden Strike +4d6
8. Talent, +2 AC
9. Sudden Strike +5d6, Improved Poison Use
10. Advanced Talents, Talent
11. Sudden Strike +6d6
12. Talent, +3 AC
13. Sudden Strike +7d6
14. Talent
15. Sudden Strike +8d6, Greater Poison Use
16. Talent, + 4 AC
17. Sudden Strike +9d6
18. Talent
19. Sudden Strike +10d6
20. Ultimate Talent, Talent, +5 AC
AC Bonus. When unarmored and unencumbered, the ninja adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC and CMD. This applies to her touch AC and when she is flat-footed, but not when she is immobilized. At level 4, and every 4 levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1.
Ki Pool (Su). The ninja has a reserve of mystical energy called her ki pool. It has a number of points equal to ½ her class level plus her Wisdom bonus. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she has access to her Ki Reserve Power. By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make 1 additional attack at her highest attack bonus when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for round. Finally, a ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. As a ninja gains levels, points from her ki pool can be spent to activate many of her Talents.
Ki Reserve Power (Su). At 1st level, the ninja chooses one of the following Ki Reserve Powers. As long as she has at least 1 point in her Ki Pool, she has access to her selected Ki Reserve Power.
Damage Reduction. The ninja gains DR/magic equal to ½ her level (minimum 1).
Enduring Fortitude. The ninja gains the benefits of the Endurance and Diehard feats. In addition, she adds half of her ninja level to the bonuses provided by the Endurance feat.
Energy Resistance. Choose 1 energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). The ninja gains resistance 5 to the selected energy type; this increases by 5 at level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter.
Inner Strength. The ninja adds half her level (minimum 1) to her Will Saves.
Inner Fortitude. The ninja adds half her level (minimum 1) to her Fortitude Saves.
Light as Air. The ninja benefits from a constant feather fall effect. At 6th level, she gains a constant water walking effect. At 12th level, she gains a constant air walk effect.
Mystic Celerity. The ninja’s speed increases by 10 feet. This increases to 20 feet at 7th level, 30 feet at 13th level, and 40 feet at 19th level.
Night Vision. The ninja gains lowlight vision (or superior lowlight vision if she already has lowlight vision). At 5th level, she gains dark vision 60 feet (or her existing dark vision increases by 60 feet). At 10th level, she gains the ability to see through magical darkness. At 15th level, she gains blind sense 60 feet. At 20th level, she gains blind sight 30 feet.
Unarmed Damage. The ninja benefits from the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and her unarmed damage equals a monk’s of the same level. Monk and ninja levels stack for the purposes of determining her unarmed damage.
Sudden Strike (Ex). The ninja causes additional damage to any opponent that is flatfooted or denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. This damage is +1d6 at 1st level, plus an additional 1d6 points of damage every 2 levels thereafter.
Trapfinding. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Evasion (Ex). The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Talents. At 2nd level, and every 2 levels there after the ninja chooses one of the following abilities.
Combat Mastery. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and for 1 round gain the benefits of a combat feat that she qualifies for but does not have.
Concealment. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action gain concealment, including benefiting from a 20% miss chance, for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus.
Extra Class Skill. The ninja may choose 1 cross-class skill and add it to her list of class skills. This talent may be chosen more than once.
Ghost Sight. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and benefit from the see invisible spell for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus.
Ghost Step. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and become and remain invisible for 1 round.
Ghost Touch. The ninja can strike incorporeal targets as if they were corporeal.
Improved Uncanny Dodge. The ninja gains the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability. She must have Uncanny Dodge before selecting this ability.
Ki Blast. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and for 1 round gain the ability to make ranged touch attacks with a range of 60 feet that cause damage equal to her ninja level plus her Wisdom bonus on a successful hit.
Minor Venom. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and poison 1 weapon with a mystic poison for up to 1 minute per level or until the weapon successfully strikes a target. This poison does 1d3 points of ability damage of the ninja’s choice (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma) for a number of rounds equal to the ninja’s Wisdom bonus. The Save DC is 10 + ½ the ninja’s class level + her Wisdom modifier. A successful save prevents further damage from occurring.
Potent Skill. Choose 1 skill you are trained in. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and add +20 to the all skill checks of the chosen skill for 1 round. This ability may be selected more than once, each time applying to a different skill.
Puissant Strike. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and add her Wisdom bonus to her attack and damage rolls for 1 round.
Rogue Talent. The ninja can select a rogue talent. She can choose this talent more than once, each time selecting a different talent from the list available to rogues.
Second Ki Reserve Power. The ninja may select a second Ki Reserve Power.
Silencing Attack. When the ninja makes a successful critical hit or sudden strike attack, she may spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as an immediate action and cause her opponent to be silenced (as the spell, but only targeting her opponent) for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus.
Swift Feint. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and may make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a free action for 1 round.
Swift Stride. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and move up to her speed.
Uncanny Dodge. The ninja gains the Uncanny Dodge ability.
Wholeness of Body. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and regain a number of hit points equal to her class level.
Wraithstrike. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and resolve all melee attacks for 1 round as melee touch attacks.
Poison Use (Ex). At 3rd level, the ninja never risks accidentally poisoning herself when using poison. At 9th level, she gains Improved Poison Use, which allows her to apply poison to her weapon as a move action. At 15th level, she gains Greater Poison Use, which allows her to apply poison to her weapon as an immediate action.
Advanced Talents (Su). Beginning at 10th level, the following advanced talents become available whenever the ninja may select a new talent.
Abundant Step. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and use dimension door with a caster level equal to her ninja level.
Crippling Strike. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Defensive Roll. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Dispelling Attack. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Feat. The ninja may select any feat she qualifies for.
Flicker. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool and gain the ability to teleport 5 feet per 2 class levels as an immediate action once per round for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus. If she teleports away in response to an attack, she gains a 50% miss chance against that attack.
Ghost Mind. The ninja gains Spell Resistance 15 + her class level against divination spells.
Hide in Plain Sight. The ninja gains the ability to use the Stealth skill to hide even while being observed, as if she had the shadow dancer ability of the same name.
Hummingbird’s Dance. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and gain the benefit of a Blink spell for a number of rounds equal to her class level.
Improved Concealment. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action gain full concealment, including benefiting from a 50% miss chance, for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus. She must have the Concealment talent before selecting this talent.
Improved Ghost Step. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and become and remain ethereal for 1 round or invisible for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus. She must have the Ghost Step talent before selecting the ability.
Improved Ghost Sight. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and benefit from True Seeing for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus. She must have the Ghost Sight talent before selecting this ability.
Improved Ki Blast. When the ninja uses her Ki Blast ability against the target, on a successful hit she may use one of the following abilities as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity: Bull Rush, Disarm, Sunder, or Trip using a CMB equal to the ninja’s class level plus her Wisdom bonus, or Pull the opponent a distance towards the ninja, up to the closest square that is adjacent to the ninja.
Improved Wholeness of Body. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and gain Fast Healing equal to ½ her class level for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom modifier. She must have the Wholeness of Body ability before selecting this ability.
Ki Mastery. The ninja gains the ability to spend points from her Ki Pool as a free action instead of as a swift action.
Ki Strike. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as an immediate action and bypass the damage reduction of her opponent.
Major Venom. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and poison 1 weapon with a mystic poison for up to 1 hour per level or until the weapon successfully strikes a target. This poison does 1d6 points of ability damage of the ninja’s choice (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma) for a number of rounds equal to the ninja’s Wisdom bonus. The Save DC is 10 + ½ the ninja’s class level + her Wisdom modifier. Two successful saves prevent further damage from occurring.
Opportunist. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Poison Resistance. Whenever the ninja is subjected to ability damage or ability drain from poison, she subtracts her Wisdom bonus from the amount of ability damage or ability drain she suffers.
Potent Poison. If the ninja uses poison on an attack that is also a successful sudden strike, she adds the number of sudden strike dice she has to the Save DC of the poison.
Skill Mastery. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Slippery Mind. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Third Ki Reserve Power. The ninja may select a third Ki Reserve Power. She must have the Second Ki Reserve Power ability before selecting this talent.
Ultimate Talent (Su). At 20th level, the ninja may select one of the following abilities in addition to the regular Talent or Advanced Talent she gets for being 20th level.
Fourth Reserve Power. The ninja can choose a fourth reserve power. She must have the Third Reserve Power Advanced Talent to select this ultimate talent.
Ghost Walk. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and benefit from the Ethereal Jaunt spell.
Quick Killer. The ninja can make a coup de grace as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Shadow Walk. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and benefit from the Shadow Walk spell.
True Venom. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and poison 1 weapon with a mystic poison for up to 1 hour per level or until the weapon successfully strikes a target. This poison does 2d6 points of ability damage of the ninja’s choice (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma) for a number of rounds equal to the ninja’s Wisdom bonus. The Save DC is 10 + ½ the ninja’s class level + her Wisdom modifier. Three successful saves prevent further damage from occurring.
Truly Potent Poison. If the ninja uses poison on an attack that is also a successful sudden strike, she adds her sudden strike damage to the save DC of the poison.
Truly Puissant Strike. When the ninja makes a successful critical hit or sudden strike attack, she may spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as an immediate action to cause maximum damage.
For anyone who was interested in this class I made a change or 2 and added a sketchy splat pic (working on the color version, should be done with it in a couple days).
Poison use got bumped to 3rd level,from 1st. After some thought, there were too many 1st level abilities. Poison use isn't a big one, but it still seemed better pushed up to 3rd, 1 level after an alchemist would get it.
I also made a few changes to the equipment section at the bottom. Probably will add more stuff when I think of something. Looking to add trick scabbards maybe. If anyone has any ideas for neat ninja tools, post'em plz :D
Full color splat pic has been added!
Deceptive strike has changed! It now provides an improved BAB, akin to how a monk's flurry does. This is slightly less of a bonus than the previous +1 every 4 levels.
Deceptive strike can also now be used as a mini-feint. By sacrificing the bonus damage on a deceptive strike, the ninja can use his attack to distract or trick an opponent into a less defended position and grants a bonus to the next combat maneuver used against that opponent. This will hopefully allow this class to fight dirty, setting up trip attacks, bullrushes, and disarms.
I also added stats for a ninja-to although its slightly different than what most people imagine. Its basically a weapon modification for a short sword, to make it look like a katana or longsword. Ninja can use a ninja-to to gain a bonus to feint on the first round of combat, because they can draw the shorter blade faster than a traditional long blade.
ninjas, yay!
If you're happy with this as the final version, would you be interested in posting this to the Pathfinder Database?
If you're happy with this as the final version, would you be interested in posting this to the Pathfinder Database?
I definitely will, I was just hoping to get some reactions to the class and the latest changes, so I know I'm not missing something. Otherwise I keep emailing the Database mod with my constant changes :D
Another change to Deceptive Strike. After much grinding and gnashing of teeth, I decided to drop the BAB boost from deceptive strike. The truth is that a ninja catching someone with a deceptive strike generally doesn't need the extra hit bonus. Monks DO need a to-hit boost for flurrying because they already have TWF penalties to contend with. Originally I wanted deceptive strike to be somewhere in between sneak attack and favored enemy, but when you are attacking someone who is flanked or doesn't know you are there, then you get some bonuses that make up for a 3/4 BAB. Deceptive strike now only provides a decent bonus to damage or a bonus to a specified combat maneuver on the next round.
I may end up boosting the damage from deceptive strike, as it tends to fall behind median sneak attack damage as the levels get up there. Might have to switch it to wisdom bonus + level. At low levels that might be a bit strong. Anybody have any ideas on how this should balance out?
edit- nevermind, deceptive strike gets the Ki bonus, which makes up for falling behind sneak attack.
Have a question. When using Deceptive Strike for a maneuver I must first make the attack, without the bonus damage, and then (usualy the next round) execute the maneuver with the bonus, right? Isn't easier just let them use the Deceptive Strike as maneuver receiving the bonus?
After reading it, it seems like a decent concept. (Monk + Rogue)
Just a few notes I jotted down while looking it over:
That second paragraph on Deceptive Strike will just either be useless (with a low bonus) or worthy of taking up a feat slot (if you decide to improve the amount- like applying the full bonus)
Timeless Body also doesn't seem to fit to well.
Hide In Plain Sight should read "10 feet AN area of shadow" not "10 feet AS area of shadow"
Always Hidden seems kinda wonky. Hide in Plain Sight works only near shadows/dim light. Stealth checks require some kind of cover if I remember correctly (I think only partial?). This either "doesn't work" or would be broken. I'd suggest given them a flat bonus to Slight of Hand and Stealth based on their wisdom or maybe even Ninja levels as a replacement.
I'm interested to see how this works in a real game next to other classes. Would it be OK if I tested this in the big playtest I am doing next month?
-Scott
thanks for the feedback :D
That is how deceptive strike works if its the ninja is performing the maneuver themselves. Deceptive strike either deals extra damage or its used to trick the opponent into being vulnerable to a specific maneuver. Since most of the time this is going to be while flanking, its the flanking partner who can often benefit more than the ninja himself. Its meant to represent the ninjas style luring the opponent into a trap, and to give the ninja something team oriented to do in combat. At 1st level, admittedly its not a big bonus (+1 or +2 at most) but at 8th level, the bonus for a maneuver should be around +6 and stacks with feats and other attack modifiers. That would be +8 on an improved trip. With a flanked opponent +10.
@scott
good catch on the HiPS. Gots to fix that.
Timeless body was something I wasn't sure about including, but as this class is sort of a version of the monk, an old ninja master is likely to also be immune to age modifiers. the Capstone power is also part of this track, as both the monk and the ninja become native outsiders.
Hidden body is meant to be the ninja creating his own concealment, essentially. It works as long as he doesn't move, isn't struck, or the viewer doesn't beat his stealth on a perception roll. The ninja essentially summons camouflage providing concealment for stealth. Hidden body doesn't replace HiPS or visa versa. They are meant to work in different conditions or sometimes in tandem. HiPS is more versatile than hidden body in most situations which is why its higher level.
Creating concealment offers all sorts of munchkin goodness. I would word it a different way.
For example, as worded in your link a ninja of 17th level or higher could do Deceptive Strike damage on everything all the time. (Turning it from a situational bonus to a static bonus)
or:
All encounters the ninja is in would have at least a few enemies with high perception. I can tell you that as a rogue/shadow dancer at 9th level I pretty much NEVER get spotted as I sit back and shank stuff to my heart's content.
I would advise maybe re-considering how this is implemented. If you use this as an out of combat only ability- that would make sense. Or possibly it could be converted over to a Ki ability?
"Sorry guys- I got a +22 to stealth so passively anyone looking for me has to beat a 32."
Creating concealment offers all sorts of munchkin goodness. I would word it a different way.
For example, as worded in your link a ninja of 17th level or higher could do Deceptive Strike damage on everything all the time. (Turning it from a situational bonus to a static bonus)or:
All encounters the ninja is in would have at least a few enemies with high perception. I can tell you that as a rogue/shadow dancer at 9th level I pretty much NEVER get spotted as I sit back and shank stuff to my heart's content.I would advise maybe re-considering how this is implemented. If you use this as an out of combat only ability- that would make sense. Or possibly it could be converted over to a Ki ability?
"Sorry guys- I got a +22 to stealth so passively anyone looking for me has to beat a 32."
Ah you must have missed that it IS a Ki ability. It costs 2 ki points. It does allow the ninja to make surprise attacks as long as a wary opponent is within threat range (you can always use stealth on distracted opponents)
Imagine nobleman has been targeted for assassination. The ninja has watched him walk in his garden admiring his cherry trees. He uses hidden body on the narrow path to appear as part of stonework. As the nobleman passes by him, but not out of the ninja's threat range, the ninja leaps foreword with a deceptive strike, which cancels his concealment. To a casual observer, the ninja seems to erupt from the stone work and quickly strike the unaware nobleman.
A 13th level ninja would have just gotten HiPS. This ninja would definitely be able to use deceptive strike a lot, but no more so than a rogue with the assassin prestige class. HiPS is treated differently by a lot of DMs on these boards, but however you handle it, its the same for the ninja or the shadowdancer or the assassin.
Oh- didn't get that it was a Ki ability.
I would use a different formatting to define Ki Pool abilities. (Like indent them or something)
Oh- didn't get that it was a Ki ability.
I would use a different formatting to define Ki Pool abilities. (Like indent them or something)
So looking over the text for Hidden Body, it was a bit confusing. I've gone over it again and it hopefully is more clear as to what the ability does and what its limitations are.
Works a bit better.
Also- did you wanna let me test this in the playtest I'm doing next month?
Works a bit better.
Also- did you wanna let me test this in the playtest I'm doing next month?
Absolutely :) I'd love the feedback.
So I had another thought about deceptive strike. What if it did wisdom bonus + level for bonus damage, and instead of ki points being spent to double the damage, they allowed a ninja to feint as a free action? That would allow a ninja to essentially spend ki to use deceptive strike in situations where flanking or surprise are not available. This would mean the deceptive strike bonus damage would be approximately equal to the average damage of a similar level sneak attack. Would this be a better set up? Is it relatively balanced?
Way too powerful.
When you line up characters of the same level, and one character is better in almost all ways to the others, you know that class is too powerful.
Advice -- get rid of the AC bonus (even though you probably REALLY don't want to) and trim down the GOOD will save to a BAD will save... if you want GOOD will save Ninja, they should be in a separate, special clan dedicated to the mind and harmony.
Personally, I would drop the Ki powers altogether. Ninja, at a baseline, were not altruistic mystics, but well trained killers. I like your use of clans, and it is here that you can make the differentiations. For the core abilities, I would follow a strict course of what "ALL Ninja's" are capable of (like climbing and jumping and stabbing poor schooks in the gizzard), and use the clans to diversify ninja into those that can turn invisible, those that can survive toe-to-toe against an equivalent level fighter, those who can summon magical powers, those that are faster than lightning and can dodge attacks with ease.
That comment on going toe-to-toe against a fighter should be your baseline guide -- if your 15th level ninja is wiping the floor toe-to-toe against an equivalen 15th level fighter, you are too powerful.