One of my players is absolutely positively convinced that a straight up rogue is strictly superior to a rogue/assassin in almost every way. I'm not so sure. He cited a lot of "opinions" but only made a few actual good points (such as "the rogue has better BAB, skills, and can have more than one trick--unlike the assassin which only really has Death Attack going for it and its DC is practically unfailable at high levels").
I thought I would see for myself by asking the forums. Is either one truly superior to the other? If so, how is it better?
I think that, if nothing else, my fellow player is underestimating the assassin prestige class. A well-built assassin who is treating his Death Attack as his bread and butter will have a supped up intelligence by high levels (at least a 30) which will more than make up for the Death DC and the 4 missing skills ranks/level.
For the most part, I'm looking for facts and measurable mathematical comparisons rather than opinions.
Also, I'm trying to convince the player in question that the assassin prestige class isn't "practically worthless." If it isn't worthless like he says it is, pleas help me find a way to best explain its positive points to him.
Well, it has its uses.
Mainly if you want to get into Arcane Trickster without loosing another Casterlevel...
Wizard 5/rogue 1/assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10
In all other cases, i have to side with your player, sorry...
A well-built assassin who is treating his Death Attack as his bread and butter will have a supped up intelligence by high levels (at least a 30)
I can't agree with that. Unless you play with a 50 purchase method or something like that, it will be hard to get int that high. A wizard can pull it off, but he can more or less ignore most other stats. An assassin really needs dexterity, some constitution, a bit of strength.
The most you can get out of items is +11: +6 for a booster and +5 for wishes/the appropriate book that gives you the +5 inherent bonus.
And we're talking about really expensive stuff here, especially the book. Using the wealth guidelines, you can't get one of those before level 13 - and even then you'll have a book that makes you smart and about 2500 gp worth of everything else. I think it takes at least level 17 (and lots of saving) to get that book.
And even then, to get "just" a 30, you'll need to start out with 19 (or 17 plus racial bonus if you don't want to put that into dex). That means you will need to put a lot of your level boosts into it.
Getting any stat to 30 or beyond is really, really hard unless you use variables way off the normal guidelines (i.e. a lot more wealth than normal, really high purchase method, play powerful races).
And this all assumes that you focus more on int than on dex. Which, for a combat-centred rogue/assassin (and since we're talking about someone who goes and kills people dead for money, and with an attack, not with poison or anything, I think that is a given) is of utmost importance.
At high levels, getting a 30 isn't hard.
18 base
02 racial
05 levels
05 book/wish
06 item
That's a 36. You might not get a racial mod, or put all your level points into it, or start with an 18, so you will more realistically end up with about a 30 in your primary stat at high levels (15+).
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I like the idea of the True Death ability, since the game needs a reason why rich folk aren't constantly revived. But the effectiveness of True Death doesn't quite live up to it's promise.
Firstly, the Death Attack is simply too easy to make; given the True Death ability is gained at minimum level 9, the sort of targets such a character would be sent against (and would warrant such measures) should be able to make such a save far too often. Even targets with a poor Fort save, would have at least +3 base, and anyone with a poor Fort, who doesn't, by level 9, take steps to compensate (Con-boosting item, Great Fort feat, Uncanny Dodge, alarms all over their lair) would already be dead by other means.
Secondly, the requirement that the True Death victim must have died from a failed save vs Death Attack; I don't see why this is necessary.
The flavour reason is that the Death Attack implants some toxic gift that keeps on giving, after the victim starts twitching again.
How is the assassin to know that the victim died from Death Attack, and not simply from normal hp damage, or a failed Massive Damage save?
How is he supposed to report a job fully done?
You can't kill a corpse again, 'just to be sure'.
Or can you?
The requirements for True Death should be changed to allow for the existing death via Death Attack (where the assassin may be forced to flee, but still got the True Death job done as part of the killing blow), and/or whenever the assassin is allowed some reasonable time (say, at least a minute) to tamper with, and booby-trap the corpse.
Thirdly, even when the requirements have been met for True Death to take effect, the Caster check to overcome it is almost trivially easy.
Given that assassins exist in the world, there's no reason, other than being cheap, not to automatically cast remove curse before any raise attempt; a far easier Caster check, that negates the need for the regular, slightly more difficult check. When it is obvious that someone has died a violent death, such precautions should be considered the default.
Anyone attempting to raise the dead will have caster level 9+, making the Remove Curse caster check vs an character (total level 9, of which assassin 4) who has just learned the ability (DC14) achievable on a roll of 5+. This ease continues as the assassin levels up (since more prestigious targets will have more prestigious miracle-workers to protect them), eventually reducing in relative difficulty, since the Assassin, as a PrC, tops out at level 10, while the reincarnating priest can continue raising his effective caster level through to 20, even while pursuing prestige classes.
In short, True Death does not actually prevent many revivifications; it simply makes them slightly more expensive. If you are willing and able to pay for a raise, or resurrection, then the extra gold for a casting of remove curse (or two, just to be sure) is a minor inconvenience.
Therefore, True Death does not achieve what it sets out to do, except for low-level, cash-strapped victims, who would probably not warrant the hiring of an Assassins’ Guild in the first place.
As for a comparison, let's see:
The requirements/ entry conditions:
Stealth 5 ranks, disguise 2 ranks, be evil, kill some bloke. Got it. Means you must be a real bastard of at least 5th level. Nothing that really inconveniences the character, unlike with some other PrCs (that sometimes require you to take feats you normally wouldn't consider)
The basic assassin (with level(s) in the PrC, not just someone who hires herself out as a killer) has 5 levels of something else, in our comparison case rogue.
Since we're talking about two combat/backstabber rogues here, let's say they both get two of the following rogue talents at 2nd and 4th level: bleeding attack, combat trick, fast stealth, finesse rogue, slow reactions, surprise attack, weapon training.
Rogue 6 versus Rogue 5 / Assassin 1
Fort and Will are better by one, though that's a minor thing and will only persist for one level every now and then.
Rogue BAB is better by one. though minor, it does persist throughout the career
The rogue has some extra skill points, another rogue talent, and +1 on trap sense.
The assassin, on the other hand, gets +1d6 sneak attack. He's basically one level early for the next 9 levels - only after the PrC progression ends will that change.
The assassin also gets poison use. Nice, but to be honest, I'd rather have one of the combat tricks as described above.
So far, more or less equal, I'd say: Better BAB, more skills, another good combat trick, and the occasional advantage in saves against poison use and a sneak attack advantage every other level.
And then there's death attack, an advantage for the assassin. But it's not really a combat ability, because you need to blow 3 rounds on it. If you do that while combat rages, the straight rogue will have done quite a bit with the time you waste priming your main weapon.
Rogue 10 versus Rogue 5 / Assassin 5
Rogue's BAB advantage persists, and the assassin has the sneak advantage again. Skills are a bigger deal now, as the assassin has lost out on 20 points by now
Rogue has +2 on trap sense, while the assassin +2 on save against poison. Let's just call that even.
Since the last time, the rogue got another basic rogue talent, and one advanced one! Those advanced talents really rock. It's another of the basic talents I described above, and one of the following advanced talents: crippling strike, improved evasion, opportunist, slippery mind, feat. I'd go for crippling strike!
They both have improved uncanny dodge now, but the assassin got it one level early (though the rogue's effective "flanking defense level" is better than the assassin's right now, as the levels don't stack yet for the assassin)
The assassin gets hidden weapons - good for sneaking up on someone, not really someone for combat.
I'd rather have that extra talent there.
The assassin also gets true death. Cool if you have a vested interest in keeping the guy dead without getting rid of the body or putting needles into his heart, lungs and other important organs. Of course, if the enemy is aware that you are a killer-for-hire, he might know about your ability and use remove curse before raising you.
To be honest, I prefer crippling the guy while he still tries to kill me.
Rogue 15 versus Rogue 5 / Assassin 10
The skill advantage has advanced to 40 points, the BAB advantage persists, the sneak attack advantage is gone now.
Trap sense is 4 better, but the assassin gets +5 on the poison thing. Bah.
The rogue also got 2 more of those nice talents!
The assassin, on the other hand, got some new toys, too:
Quiet death: Nice if you want to kill someone without being observed. I might even take that over things like opportunist. Not sure, though. Does nothing if you're up to your teeth in enemies and their blood and gore.
Hide in plain sight: Something rogues cannot get for some reason (house-ruled that in my games - it's an advanced talents). Fits the whole hide theme, but I'd say for a real fight, there are better ways to make your enemy sneak attackable. I'd say about even.
Swift death: Now that is combat worthy! Death attack a sucker without the 3 rounds the rogue will use to lay waste to multiple enemies in a heated confrontation. It's only once per day, though, so your combat abilities are still lessened.
Angel of death: Also only once per day, and doesn't help you put the bastard down in the first place. Still, it and swift death are basically free, so it's alright.
Advantage assassin - but only for sneaky stuff.
The later years - especially level 20
At 20th level, the rogue gets Death Attack On Steroids. Of course, it's a far, far way to 20th-level, and it's not good practise to compare characters on what they are like on 20th level (though if we would, the assassin would look like the pathetic loser he is!)
All in all, I must say that the assassin is better than the rogue - but only at one thing: Sneaking up on people and killing them with one stroke. They can be good at that. Real good. They can do it in a way that makes it difficult to even observe the deed, they have an excellent exit strategy, and they can make it damn hard to reverse it.
Of course, a lot of this rides on the fact that the enemy can survive this!
Outside this scenario, the assassin's abilities hardly show up at all. Especially during standard adventuring, where you have regular fights against a number of enemies, the class does virtually nothing. In such cases, I'd go with rogue and his extra combat-related tricks and extra skill points any day of the week.
All in all, I'd say that the assassin isn't a good PrC for regular adventuring. The rogue can be a passable assassin and still get lots of fun stuff for all the other adventuring needs, while the assassin needs to do solo missions. That, even more the evil part, makes it not very suitable for player characters.
But if you need someone for dastardly deeds, the assassin is your man. Or woman. Or monster.
the Death Attack is simply too easy to make
This is only true if you don't take many levels of assassin or neglect your Intelligence. A 10th-level assassin with 30 intelligence will have a DC 30 death attack--which isn't too shabby at any level (you will dominate solo CR 10s and 15s and even at level 20 you can use it effectively against most any non-boss encounter).
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A well-built assassin who is treating his Death Attack as his bread and butter will have a supped up intelligence by high levels (at least a 30) which will more than make up for the Death DC and the 4 missing skills ranks/level.
I don't doubt that a player or DM can get his PC/NPC Int through the roof, but only by neglecting other areas.
What's this clumsy, weak, sickly, foolish, antisocial genius doing to support himself, during the five levels he has to survive before he becomes eligible for Death Attack?
At level one, having lots more skills he can take a single rank in is not going to make up for the fact he's too fragile to enter a scrap. And if he's using that high Int to learn Wizardry, then why would he gimp himself by prestiging out to a martial class, at the very point the game-changing 3rd/4th level spells fall within his grasp?
Why risk your life in melee, when by the time you've got the obligatory five levels under your belt, you can blow your enemies apart from the cover of a nearby alleyway? Or if you really are a morbid sort, who likes to get his hands dirty, you can force a Fort save, of higher difficulty, via a Stinking Cloud in his bedroom, then walk in (with a necklace of adaptation, of course), and bash his head in with a lead pipe while he pukes all over the carpet.
At high levels, getting a 30 isn't hard.
18 base
02 racial
05 levels
05 book/wish
06 itemThat's a 36. You might not get a racial mod, or put all your level points into it, or start with an 18, so you will more realistically end up with about a 30 in your primary stat at high levels (15+).
There's several things really wrong with this:
18 base: 18 base requires either a lot of luck while rolling up your stats, or a considerable commitment in purchase.
Even with 25 purchase (called "epic", and the most powerful option in the book), you set yourself up as a one-trick-pony, stat-wise. You can go 18/14/14/10/10/8, or 18/16/10/10/10/8. Both are okay for an arcanist, but I wouldn't want to play anything else with it.
For an assassin that desperately wants to be smart, that would mean something like
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 8
Or maybe Dex 16 Con 10.
Neither appeals to me. Con 10 means that you're only good for those assassination jobs, as a normal fight will leave dead in a round or two.
And Dex/Con 14? That's okay for a wizard, not a rogue. You need that dex to hit the enemy in the first place...
And, again, this assumes the most powerful purchase method (though I do use that in my games). Pathfinder society uses 20 points, which would mean 18/14/10/10/10/8. I wouldn't even do that as a wizard, much less someone who counts dex as one of his most important stats and con as not trivial.
The rest goes along the same vein: You overspecialise in intelligence. Good for a wizard, not so good for a rogue or rogue/assassin. It's not just your primary stat, it's virtually your only stat.
Let's go ahead and assume that you've gone with elf and get 25 points.
You start with
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 20
Wis 10
Cha 8
You get an item boosting int by +6, and one for +6 dex. 72000 of your 24000 gp are tied up by Those two items already
You also put your three boosts into int.
You're at
Str 10
Dex 22
Con 12
Int 29
Wis 10
Cha 8
You have 168 kgil to buy everything else. (You could also go with +4 dex/con instead of +6 dex, which will add some hit points and cost you 12 kgil extra, so you are at 150)
You could actually afford the +5 inherent int right there - and have left almost nothing for everything else!
You could of course, go for the +1 inherent bonus - and flush almost 30 kgil down the toilet, as you still need to shell out full price for a +2.
For a high level rogue, your dex is pathetic, meaning your AC and attacks will suffer.
You are also supremely squishy: 86 hp (101 if you have toughness) unless you cripple your dex further and go for the +4 con and get 30 extra HP.
You're a one-trick-pony, and your one trick kinda sucks. People will keep asking you what possessed you to waste your mind on this - as a wizard, you could turn invisible, teleport into the guy's presence, and lay him low with any number of nasty spells of doom. Heck, on this level, you could stop bothering - you'd just obliterate the building he's in.
Or summon an army of nasties to go in there for you and inhume him.
And unlike your twin brother who despite his high int made the stupid decision to become the world's most clumsy near-epic rogue, you could do great things in regular fights, too.
No, while it is possible for a really focussed character to reach something like 30 by level 15 in one stat (assuming really generous character creation methods), it is not a staple for every character, especially for those who rely on more than one ability score (which is almost everybody), and the assassin really needs dex in addition to int, and some con, too.
In fact, for an assassin, dex is probably more important than int. Remember that you have to survive to this point, which is not that likely if you play a semi-martial class and overspecialise in an ability that will not be that useful to you at first and neglect abilities that are useful all the time.
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All this obsession with high Int is unnecessary.
Yes, it improves the DC of the Death Attack, but so what?
Any idiot can kill someone; you hire an assassin when you want someone to stay dead.
And for that, you're relying on the True Death ability, which is completely, and utterly, unaltered by Int. It's a flat DC, based solely on levels in a 10-level PrC, opposed by the revivifiers levels in a 20-level base class (or base class, plus levels in a synergistic PrC). It's a losing proposition from the start, which gets worse as time wears on.
slightly off topic: Some rambling follows.
revision
Death Attack(Ex): If an Assassin can catch an opponent flat-footed(not just deny their dex) he can sacrifice the sneak attack damage for a potential lethal blow to kill the opponent. If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save(DC 10+sneak attack die sacrificedd+ dex mod) he dies. As an example if we have a rogue 5/assassin 1 with a dexterity modifier of +3 the DC would be--> 10(base) + 4(4d6 potential sneak attack) + 3(dex mod) for a total of 17.
Using this would make death attack more viable, but it might make it too good. Maybe removing the dex mod from the DC makes it more manageable.
True Death(SU): If the Assassin makes the killing blow the target can not be revised by any means short of using Remove Curse before casting Raise Dead or similar magic. Even then there must be a caster level check equal to the Assassin's level + dex modifier
Angel of Death(Su): If the Assassin makes the killing blow the target can not be revised by any means short of using Wish or Miracle immediately followed by Resurrection or True Resurrection. Even then there must be a caster level check equal to the Assassin's level + 10+ dex modifier.
Second Idea:
Instead of just landing the killing blow for True Death and Angel of Death, maybe killing them with a Death Attack could activate the above mentioned version of True Death and Angel of Death.
PS: I did not write them to work together. I wrote them out separately. I will thinking of having them work of a more lethal version of death attack instead of just landing a killing blow, and I am thinking the assassin actually has to catch someone flatfooted to make the death attack. I wrote this over a span of a few minutes so I may have missed a few things. I am actually quiet sure I did.
the Death Attack is simply too easy to makeThis is only true if you don't take many levels of assassin or neglect your Intelligence. A 10th-level assassin with 30 intelligence will have a DC 30 death attack--which isn't too shabby at any level (you will dominate solo CR 10s and 15s and even at level 20 you can use it effectively against most any non-boss encounter).
You have to hit that target first. With a 30 Int, you have obviously neglected your Dex/Str. You're going to be hitting appropriate CR monsters about 50% of the time. This road leads not to domination.
Here is a downloadable zip file containing 4 pdf's--every Pathfinder assassin character our roleplaying group has ever made. They may not all be optimized, but none of them are considered weak.
(Also, please keep in mind that Aleil is currently in play and thus is likely listed with a little bit more gear than she probably should have for her level.)
In any case, we've gone off topic somewhere down the line. Let's get back to the analysis of the straight up rogue VS the rogue/assassin and the assassin prestige class VS pretty much everything else.
There is one excellent feat for assassins though Ability Focus adds +2 DC to the death attack that would equal 4 points of intelligence for that purpose.
I would have liked to see BAB from different classes stack together more consistently.. rogue 5 assassin 5 should have the same BAB as Rogue 10, no good reason why that shouldnt be the case. I think it hardly would harm balance in PRPG now that the core classes got a significant buff.
You have to hit that target first. With a 30 Int, you have obviously neglected your Dex/Str. You're going to be hitting appropriate CR monsters about 50% of the time. This road leads not to domination.
You would only really need to neglect strength, which is inconsequential for the most part since you can make up for it with Weapon Finesse and Sneak Attack (and if you kill the creature with death attack, damage doesn't really matter).
Another thing you seem to be missing is that 50% to hit is a GOOD thing. Once you get it THAT far simple tacyics and maneuvering like flanking, attacking the target while they are flat-footed, or getting boosted by a bard/similar allies will pretty much guarantee your success.
Rogues and assassins aren't supposed to be able to hit things like a fighter. They are designed to use the above tricks (and more) to gain the edge in a fight.
A rogue or assassin who fights like a fighter is going to die.
You have to hit that target first. With a 30 Int, you have obviously neglected your Dex/Str. You're going to be hitting appropriate CR monsters about 50% of the time. This road leads not to domination.You would only really need to neglect strength, which is inconsequential for the most part since you can make up for it with Weapon Finesse and Sneak Attack (and if you kill the creature with death attack, damage doesn't really matter).
Another thing you seem to be missing is that 50% to hit is a GOOD thing. Once you get it THAT far simple tacyics and maneuvering like flanking, attacking the target while they are flat-footed, or getting boosted by a bard/similar allies will pretty much guarantee your success.
Rogues and assassins aren't supposed to be able to hit things like a fighter. They are designed to use the above tricks (and more) to gain the edge in a fight.
A rogue or assassin who fights like a fighter is going to die.
50% is a good thing. Unless you are betting the farm on that one hit. Then, it's a pretty poor thing.
I'm not saying Assassins suck. I like them. Love playing them. But they seriously do not 'dominate'. Ever.
The real question is what do thay bring to a party? Nothing a Rogue can't do better. Solo the Assassin is better but in 99% of all table tops rpgs you are not solo.
To add to that:
If you play to 20 the rogue can assassinate too. This means the level you play too is also a factor. The assassin also has to wait 3 rounds to death attack. I think most groups end fights in 3 to 5 rounds. Sitting around for 3 rounds not doing anything is also not that fun, and if you miss or the fort save is made, and most likely it will be, then you have not done anything. The concept of the assassin is nice, but the mechanics make me just want to stay straight rogue, and just call it an assassin.
Here is a downloadable zip file containing 4 pdf's--every Pathfinder assassin character our roleplaying group has ever made. They may not all be optimized, but none of them are considered weak.
(Also, please keep in mind that Aleil is currently in play and thus is likely listed with a little bit more gear than she probably should have for her level.)
In any case, we've gone off topic somewhere down the line. Let's get back to the analysis of the straight up rogue VS the rogue/assassin and the assassin prestige class VS pretty much everything else.
I keep getting redirected to http://www.mediafire.com/myfiles.php
As for a comparison, let's see...
I agree with nearly all your points save one: Skills. An assassin focused on death attack will most likely have more skill ranks than a straight rogue by high levels. Why? His intelligence?
Most standard rogues will only have a fair intelligence (probably 10 to 14) since they get so many ranks already, but an assassin dedicated to his Death Attack will generally have a MUCH higher intelligence score in order to keep his Death Attack DC competitive.
For example, at 15th-level a standard 14 Intelligence rogue might have 8 + 2 = 10 ranks per level, or 150 ranks. A 15th-level rogue 5/assassin 10 with 26 Intelligence would have 8 + 8 = 16, or 80 for the first 5 levels and 4 + 8 = 12, or 120 for the latter 10 levels. That means the dedicated assassin has 200 ranks versus the 150 ranks of the standard rogue.
It's like the wizard. If you look at its 2 ranks per level, it looks kind of crappy, but if you take into account that you WILL have a high intelligence, you actually end up with a ton of skills most of the time.
It's true the assassin won't have the lead in skills the entire time (at low-levels the rogue does better while the assassin tries to catch up), but he certainly will most of the time (approximately the latter 2/3 of his career).
I keep getting redirected to http://www.mediafire.com/myfiles.phpHere is a downloadable zip file containing 4 pdf's--every Pathfinder assassin character our roleplaying group has ever made. They may not all be optimized, but none of them are considered weak.
(Also, please keep in mind that Aleil is currently in play and thus is likely listed with a little bit more gear than she probably should have for her level.)
In any case, we've gone off topic somewhere down the line. Let's get back to the analysis of the straight up rogue VS the rogue/assassin and the assassin prestige class VS pretty much everything else.
Sorry about that. Try this link.
Just for kicks I did some math: The highest Death Attack DC I can figure out with a core race is 36 (base 10, assassin 10, 13 intelligence, 2 ability focus, 1 assassin's dagger). Not too shabby--though not very likely either.
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I really think you are overestimating the intelligence of your average assassin a *lot*. Unless you're doing some crazy high point buy or getting lucky on a lot of rogues, I'd say the vast majority of assassins aren't going to have that high of an intelligence. Maybe they'll have it as a secondary high, but I severely doubt it'll see 24 or 30, MAYBE it will see 20. KaeYoss posted a lot more about ability scores above, I pretty much agree with him.
I just finished running Legacy of Fire with 20 point buy. The highest anyone got in their *primary* ability score was 26. Secondary scores were around 18 at best. And that's in a game that has genies with Wish all about.
EDIT: For some reference information, I ran a party of 5 players through this AP. They found 99% of the treasure they could, and got to level 14 by the end. Only a couple players had +6 stat items, and they were the ones with 26 in a high score. I don't think anyone started with a 20 in any score, since it's pretty un-optimal unless you're a single stat class like a wizard, most starting with an 18 in their primary and using stat boosts to shore up odd secondary ability scores. I *could* see some getting to 28 or 29 with extra wishes, but that's about it. Definitely not as high in their 'secondary' abilities.
I really think you are overestimating the intelligence of your average assassin a *lot*. Unless you're doing some crazy high point buy or getting lucky on a lot of rogues, I'd say the vast majority of assassins aren't going to have that high of an intelligence. Maybe they'll have it as a secondary high, but I severely doubt it'll see 24 or 30, MAYBE it will see 20. KaeYoss posted a lot more about ability scores above, I pretty much agree with him.
I just finished running Legacy of Fire with 20 point buy. The highest anyone got in their *primary* ability score was 26. Secondary scores were around 18 at best. And that's in a game that has genies with Wish all about.
EDIT: For some reference information, I ran a party of 5 players through this AP. They found 99% of the treasure they could, and got to level 14 by the end. Only a couple players had +6 stat items, and they were the ones with 26 in a high score. I don't think anyone started with a 20 in any score, since it's pretty un-optimal unless you're a single stat class like a wizard, most starting with an 18 in their primary and using stat boosts to shore up odd secondary ability scores. I *could* see some getting to 28 or 29 with extra wishes, but that's about it. Definitely not as high in their 'secondary' abilities.
As long as someone in the party has Craft Wondrous Item, getting ability score increases is easy and, depending on your level, relatively cheap too. Even without the feat it is still doable (though it does cut into other areas a little).
Any player who doesn't have a primary score of at least 30 and a secondary score of at least 24 by 20th-level is either (1) in a stingy low-magic game or (2) is so far away from knowing how to make an effective character that the rogue VS assassin debate isn't going to matter.
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Keep in mind I was talking 14th/15th level, not 20th. By 20th I *could* see some having those scores, but if they don't it's definitely not for those reasons. For one, we've added up the value of every PC's items, they all have at or higher than what they should for their level (which at 14th level is around 185,000). Most of them put their money into armor/weapons, cloaks of resistance, rings of protection, and other miscellaneous equipment.
Expecting players to have at least a 30 in their primary and a 24 in their secondary by 20th isn't crazy, I'll admit, but calling those who don't poor players or saying they're in a low magic game is pretty off.
I *will* agree that there is a huge difference between creating a character AT 20th level with all these stat improving items and other craziness, as opposed to leveling up one from 1st to whatever. In the latter case, as is the case with all our campaigns, the PCs often will have periods where they have lots of money to buy things and upgrade/buy certain items as they go. Rarely will they save up the huge expenditure some of these higher items require (I think the most they each had was after coming back from the Plane of Fire, when they had around 40K-50K each to spend). Not to mention a lot of the wealth they find can be in the form of consumables, which gets used up.
Look again at Kae Yoss's post above, his numbers are pretty much on par for what I've seen in running the first four APs. The treasure the PCs get is standard for their level, often more in times, and they are smart at building their characters.
For one, we've added up the value of every PC's items, they all have at or higher than what they should for their level (which at 14th level is around 185,000).
Did you take into account that many of their items were made at half price thanks to their item creation feats? If you do that I think you will find that it adds up much better (with the exception of Aleil).
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A number of them were, but they only had so much downtime to make items at. The largest amount was a year of downtime after the first book, but no one had an item creation feat then (the only wizard in the party was a cohort, not gained until 7th). The next time was when they were traveling in Katapesh during the 3rd book. After that, they essentially had no opportunity to craft. Book 4/5 put them in a situation where they couldn't take the time to craft (no access to materials), and book 6 was on a kind of 'time crunch' so they had to hurry.
Having someone cranking out items for them is probably more of a rarity than an average in most parties, I would think.
I also wasn't complaining, I was just pointing out that they definitely weren't in a 'low magic' situation.
(What is Aleil?)
A number of them were, but they only had so much downtime to make items at. The largest amount was a year of downtime after the first book, but no one had an item creation feat then (the only wizard in the party was a cohort, not gained until 7th). The next time was when they were traveling in Katapesh during the 3rd book. After that, they essentially had no opportunity to craft. Book 4/5 put them in a situation where they couldn't take the time to craft (no access to materials), and book 6 was on a kind of 'time crunch' so they had to hurry.
Having someone cranking out items for them is probably more of a rarity than an average in most parties, I would think.
I also wasn't complaining, I was just pointing out that they definitely weren't in a 'low magic' situation.
(What is Aleil?)
I remember seeing a rule where you could cut the crafting time in half in exchange for increasing the craft DC by 5. That could mitigate some of the problems you describe.
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For one, we've added up the value of every PC's items, they all have at or higher than what they should for their level (which at 14th level is around 185,000).Did you take into account that many of their items were made at half price thanks to their item creation feats? If you do that I think you will find that it adds up much better (with the exception of Aleil).
Craft items are not an excuse to break WBL. Just like expendable items that get used are not suppose to count towards WBL as well. That ammount is what you should have in total wealth at ANY givien level...give or take. Once again, your ignoring rules (well in this case guidelines that other rules are based on). In fact the AP assumes your gonna craft or use the item so if you sell everything and just buy items you'll end up with half WBL actually. I actually ran into this issue with a few of the AP runs I have been in/run.
As for the high int assassin...your dex assuming start of 16, +11 for items gives you 27 at high level. BAB of 14 (assuming 10/10 split) and your to hit will be +27 to hit. CR 20 critters should have AC in the 40+ range. Even at 40, you need a 8 or higher to even hit with a +5 weapon. An optimized CR 20 encounter (since your optimizing your rogue/assassin) should have AC in the near 50 range...which means your assassin is hitting squat. Your optimized assassin can hit an unoptimized CR 20 critter a bit more then half the time in enforce a save or high that the CR 20 critter will fail about 50% of the time (CR 20 critter having a fort save of 20+ is about average). So your looking at about a 30-40% success rate that if you don't you die. That is AWEFUL for level 20. You might as well play a rogue that sneak up while they sleep and CDG them for an ungoddly fort save DC.
Craft items are not an excuse to break WBL.
Could you quote where your proof of this is located? I'm not being contentious, I'm actually curious. As a DM who's been crafting a LOT of NPCs, this could heavily change my methods.
I've checked the crafting magic items section, the feat section, and the wealth by level section, and none of them really say anything on the half cost of crafting magic items.
I'm asking because since the inception of 3e, it's been assumed that the benefit of blowing a feat that gives you nothing to aid you in spellcasting (like combat casting or metamagic feats would), is that you get more magic items overrall.
But don't take my word for it. Sean K Reynolds spoke on this back in the 3e days. (linky)
Now granted, that was back when crafting required XP too. Since it doesn't anymore, was there a rule change someplace regarding how it applies to wealth by level too? I can't find it if it has...
Just like expendable items that get used are not suppose to count towards WBL as well.
Actually, that one is answered right in the rules:
"It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls)..."
Meaning, the wealth from the wealth by level chart assumes that some of it is spent on consumable treasure. My understanding of that is that it "counts" then. If that's supposed to be interpreted another way, maybe someone here can explain that to me.
The NPC making charts include a value meant for various consumables too.
Finally, it also mentions that you can double the values in that chart if you are playing a High Fantasy game. That gives a LOT of leeway depending on the type of game being run.
A quick glance at one of the assassins and I'm seeing at least a 25 point purchase for pathfinder (possibly a bit higher). That's an "epic" gameplay character, so it's very likely a "high fantasy" campaign.
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Craft items are not an excuse to break WBL.Could you quote where your proof of this is located? I'm not being contentious, I'm actually curious. As a DM who's been crafting a LOT of NPCs, this could heavily change my methods.
I've checked the crafting magic items section, the feat section, and the wealth by level section, and none of them really say anything on the half cost of crafting magic items.
I'm asking because since the inception of 3e, it's been assumed that the benefit of blowing a feat that gives you nothing to aid you in spellcasting (like combat casting or metamagic feats would), is that you get more magic items overrall.
But don't take my word for it. Sean K Reynolds spoke on this back in the 3e days. (linky)
Now granted, that was back when crafting required XP too. Since it doesn't anymore, was there a rule change someplace regarding how it applies to wealth by level too? I can't find it if it has...
Just like expendable items that get used are not suppose to count towards WBL as well.Actually, that one is answered right in the rules:
"It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls)..."
Meaning, the wealth from the wealth by level chart assumes that some of it is spent on consumable treasure. My understanding of that is that it "counts" then. If that's supposed to be interpreted another way, maybe someone here can explain that to me.
The NPC making charts include a value meant for various consumables too.Finally, it also mentions that you can double the values in that chart if you are playing a High Fantasy game. That gives a LOT of leeway depending on the type of game being run.
A quick glance at one of the assassins and I'm seeing at least a 25 point purchase for pathfinder (possibly a bit higher). That's an "epic" gameplay character, so it's very...
1) I know what sean said...and he was wrong then and is wrong now. If the feat allowed you to basically get double WBL, then it is worth more then a couple of feats. Double WBL is VERY powerful...and the feat gives that ability to EVERYONE in the party. The XP cost is a non issue because you use enough to get a level behind and they get more exp because your a level behind.
2) Using non standard point buy values, rolling really well, not following the WBL can lead to the CR system being off. Just like a 10 point buy character with 1/4 WBL may have issues taking on same CR critter, if your not following the guidelines the other way, same CR becomes a joke. At which point you need to optimize critters to match apporiate CR. Course just flat out optimizing does that too...but to lesser extend then if you optimize with 25 point buy and double WBL.
3) the WBL guideling is just a guideling. Optimized gear can make it so you should have less then that for the same CR. The easiest way to use the guideline is just to check what a character has at any given level and check it against the value in the chart followed by percentages of various types of items.
I agree with nearly all your points save one: Skills. An assassin focused on death attack will most likely have more skill ranks than a straight rogue by high levels. Why? His intelligence?Most standard rogues will only have a fair intelligence (probably 10 to 14) since they get so many ranks already, but an assassin dedicated to his Death Attack will generally have a MUCH higher intelligence score in order to keep his Death Attack DC competitive.
I disagree. The Master Strike rogue ability is based on Int too, as are Minor Magic and Major Magic, so the rogue has as much or even more reason to boost his Int.
The assassin has only two good abilities. Death Attack and Hide in Plain Sight. Everything else is unimportant or gets worse with leveling up. A level 15 Assassin has a 50% chance of thwarting a cleric of the same level he wants to resurrect his victim. 25% if the cleric tries to cast remove curse. When he reaches level 20 the cleric has a 25% chance of failure for the resurrection and 0% for the remove curse.... I believe the whole system would be better if all "rogue's level", "assassin's level" etc. would mean the character level. At the moment prestige classes are almost never a good choice.
I agree with nearly all your points save one: Skills. An assassin focused on death attack will most likely have more skill ranks than a straight rogue by high levels. Why? His intelligence?Most standard rogues will only have a fair intelligence (probably 10 to 14) since they get so many ranks already, but an assassin dedicated to his Death Attack will generally have a MUCH higher intelligence score in order to keep his Death Attack DC competitive.
I disagree. The Master Strike rogue ability is based on Int too, as are Minor Magic and Major Magic, so the rogue has as much or even more reason to boost his Int.
The assassin has only two good abilities. Death Attack and Hide in Plain Sight. Everything else is unimportant or gets worse with leveling up. A level 15 Assassin has a 50% chance of thwarting a cleric of the same level he wants to resurrect his victim. 25% if the cleric tries to cast remove curse. When he reaches level 20 the cleric has a 25% chance of failure for the resurrection and 0% for the remove curse.... I believe the whole system would be better if all "rogue's level", "assassin's level" etc. would mean the character level. At the moment prestige classes are almost never a good choice.
Most people don't build towards an ability they MIGHT get at level 20 and will be able to use for exactly ONE level.
However, plenty of people build towards abilities that they can have earlier on (such as 6th-level in the case of the assassin's death attack).
Odds are, unless you are making that rogue 20th-level from the get go or he is a scholarly sage type of rogue, he is NOT going to have an intelligence score comparable to a dedicated death attacking assassin.
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I know what sean said...and he was wrong then and is wrong now. If the feat allowed you to basically get double WBL, then it is worth more then a couple of feats. Double WBL is VERY powerful...and the feat gives that ability to EVERYONE in the party. The XP cost is a non issue because you use enough to get a level behind and they get more exp because your a level behind.
Double WBL sounds great, but you're not going to be able to spend that on anything and everything you want. After all, you don't get to use your assigned total for starting level on whatever you want. There are plenty of levels that you didn't have those feats and had to buy items at full price. Levels where you didn't have enough money to craft that item you wanted and had to settle. While plotting it out level by level is more work than most players want to do, the DM had better be imposing some sort of limit on what you can craft. He just shouldn't be limiting it to 'craft up until you hit WBL using non-crafting prices' or the feat is meaningless.
Someone tell me again why the assassin is a prestige class instead of a set of rogue talents? Just wondering.
Backwards compatibility.
Not seeing it:
3.5 assassin: Gives up advanced talents for death attack and spells.
PF assassin: Gives up rogue talents in exchange for assassin class features.
Assassin as rogue talent tree: Gives up rogue talents in exchange for assassin talents.
Which of these two are most similar to one another? At a glance, not the 3.5 assassin and PF assassin. Rather, the PF assassin and rogue-talent assassin are nearly identical in terms of class features; the only difference is that we don't have to invent a prestige class that is, in most respects, identical to rogue.
stuff about bypassing SBL by crafting
It really depends on the DM. Some DM's make it difficult to get any magic item you want(ie not magic mart) so the power of the feats is that you can create what you want. Some DM's allow whatever you ask for, but you have to stay within the WBL. The advantage in this case is that you get to pay less for the main items, and you can make items when away from a big city.
I allow magic mart to a large extent, but no 100%. The advanatage of it in my games is that I allow players to go over the WBL, not by too much but it does give the feats a reason to be taken.
I don't think it was meant to completely ignore the WBL. I think that is just a bad idea.
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Not all Assassins are Rogues though. Bard/Assassin, Ranger/Assassin, hell even Barbarian/Assassin are all viable builds. While this thread does compare the Assassin with the pure Rogue, to say that the Assassin talents should all be rolled into Rogue talents locks out other classes from killing folks for fun and profit.
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Not all Assassins are Rogues though. Bard/Assassin, Ranger/Assassin, hell even Barbarian/Assassin are all viable builds. While this thread does compare the Assassin with the pure Rogue, to say that the Assassin talents should all be rolled into Rogue talents locks out other classes from killing folks for fun and profit.
And what keeps those characters from being Bard/Rogue or Ranger/Rogue? Or even Barbarian/Rogue?
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They want the prestige of becoming an Assassin. That said I've had a player who was an assassin from level 1 (he took rogue and was aiming for Assassin. Not because it was mechanically better, but because it was cool.)
In any case the Rogue and the Assassin have two very different goals. The rogue needs to be viable in day-to-day combat. The Assassin needs to be able to one-shot an unprepared foe. I think both are very capable at their respective focus.
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I'm asking because since the inception of 3e, it's been assumed that the benefit of blowing a feat that gives you nothing to aid you in spellcasting (like combat casting or metamagic feats would), is that you get more magic items overrall.
But don't take my word for it. Sean K Reynolds spoke on this back in the 3e days. (linky)
Now granted, that was back when crafting required XP too. Since it doesn't anymore, was there a rule change someplace regarding how it applies to wealth by level too? I can't find it if it has...
That's a very good link, and I agree with the reasoning used.
On the other hand, the example used is very modest (a PC having 10K, instead of 9K), which I don't think most GMs have a problem with at all.
Allowing each PC with crafting feats to increase their individual budget by 10-20%, which can be spread around the whole party (because, remember, the others are going to pester him to plug up their perceived weak spots) isn't out of order. You end up with a party in which several people are a few hundred over the expected budget.
The reason for the many, long, contentious threads from last year, was because some players were assuming all PCs would have unlimited downtime, all WBL budget would have been received in cold cash, and not irrelevant items that had to be sold for half value.
Thus, to use the example in the link, they were demanding that their PC would have up to 18K gear (instead of 9K), and every other PC would have up to 18K gear as well. Which is simply never going to happen in any real-life, organic campaign.
@Cold Napalm
I was asking if there were any rules specific to this. I understand your opinion, and I'm experienced enough to handle what happens.
I was simply curious if your opinion had rules weight behind it, or if it was simply your gameplay experience and preferences that influenced your answer.
One thing to note though, when bandying words about making CR worthless, etc, is that a crafting feat does not double WBL. Maybe if you had about 3-4 feats, and all the time in the world, it could get pretty close.
In most of my games, people grab one or two feats so they can get a little customizability and discount on some key items.
Ooh, also... After looking over the wording of that consumables line, I think I understand what it means now. It's counting that you may have used consumables over time, not that the gold listed there is used in consumables that you no longer have (that wouldn't make sense).
So yeah, money spent on consumables that were used up aren't factored into that money.
@TriOmegaZero
The problem is that if you make it Rogue talents, you would have to make some of the abilities only obtainable as advanced talents. Which means you'd need 10 rogue levels to get them.
The Assassin Prestige class grants a death attack at 6th level (5 rank requirement before entering the class). You'd either have to allow the Rogue to be able to choose that as a talent at 1st/2nd level to let a non-rogue multiclass to get it, which is too early (in my opinion) for a pure Rogue character.
This could be alleviated by adding additional requirements within the talent choosing process though...
Back when Assassins had spells, this was a very different situation.
A Rogue/Assassin that can gain Dimension Door, Disguise Self/Alter Self, non-detection spells, undetectable alignment, etc, gains a LOT more than just poison and a death attack.
Losing the spells really lost a good chunk of what made the Assassin class unique compared to a pure Rogue build.
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Now, I know Pathfinder has shied away from having spellcasting built into their Prestige Classes, however what about something like the Arcane Archer?
Basically, require having a particular spell or caster level for entry, and then give +1 to that spellcasting class.
So like needing undetectable alignment or disguise self, and then allowing increases to the caster level of whatever class that allowed you to qualify to for being an assassin (since that opens the door for bard, cleric or wizard/sorcerer spells).
Or just pick arcane (since bard and wizard/sorcerer fits the closest to Assassin spells).
I'm not sure what to give up to balance the Prestige Class for that though...
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@TriOmegaZero
The problem is that if you make it Rogue talents, you would have to make some of the abilities only obtainable as advanced talents. Which means you'd need 10 rogue levels to get them.The Assassin Prestige class grants a death attack at 6th level (5 rank requirement before entering the class). You'd either have to allow the Rogue to be able to choose that as a talent at 1st/2nd level to let a non-rogue multiclass to get it, which is too early (in my opinion) for a pure Rogue character.
This could be alleviated by adding additional requirements within the talent choosing process though...
Death Attack
Prereq: 5 ranks of Stealth.Problem solved.
The main problem with multiclassing rogues is that the talents are divided up by regular and advanced. This is to encourage single classing in rogue. If they had just made them all regular, but put prereqs to keep powerful ones only takeable at higher levels, other classes could multiclass in once they had the prereqs from their main class. But again, PF isn't about multi and prestige classing.
You would only really need to neglect strength, which is inconsequential for the most part since you can make up for it with Weapon Finesse and Sneak Attack (and if you kill the creature with death attack, damage doesn't really matter).
Weapon Finesse only helps you if you're not clumsy. Which you are if you focus that much on Int.
Another thing you seem to be missing is that 50% to hit is a GOOD thing.
Not if your success depends on it.
I can see it!
"So you're the best assassin?"
"I'm the smartest!"
"We need this bastard dead, you can do that?"
"Oh yeah, when I set out to assassinate someone, half the time they totally croak"
"Good, that - wait a second: 'Half the time?' We need that guy dead, either you can do that, or you cannot. There is no half the time."
"Hey, it's hard to actually hit some guy. You need to be real agile and nimble and stuff! Not to mention that I need to get near him, that needs agility too, for the sneaking. Oops, I dropped my sword again. Stupid fingers!"
"Aren't you an assassin?"
"A damn smart one! Listen to me, you amateur: When other rogues where perfecting their sneaking and putting killing weapons into targets, *I* stayed at home and *learned*. I *know* stuff. When *I* actually manage to sneak up on a guy and hit him with my dagger, he's doomed. up to 95% of the time."
"Thank you for your time, we'll call you. Oh, and give me your lunch money, nerd!"
Once you get it THAT far simple tacyics and maneuvering like flanking, attacking the target while they are flat-footed, or getting boosted by a bard/similar allies will pretty much guarantee your success.
Flanking? Do you have a sneakier thief to come along with you to stand on the other side of the target?
Flat-footed? You need to sneak up on someone for that, or move before he does. Not gonna happen if you're too clumsy to sneak and your init sucks.
Bard? Similar ally? Do they come along on a hit? Does the bard sing something like "sneak, sneak, sneak up on the unsuspecting victim!"?
Rogues and assassins aren't supposed to be able to hit things like a fighter. They are designed to use the above tricks (and more) to gain the edge in a fight.A rogue or assassin who fights like a fighter is going to die.
A rogue or assassin who's hitting like a wizard will be thrown out of the party for gross incompetence.
While the intelligence is useful for that one trick you can pull off, if you can pull it off, for everything leading up to you even getting a chance to pull it off depends on other ability scores: You need dex to sneak up on the guy, and stay hidden to observe him long enough. Or charisma to seem non-threatening to get the time to observe him long enough.
And you're alone, because you don't want the rest of the party to come along and give yourself away (though with that focus on int, you're probably the clumsiest character in that party)
And when you manage to get even near your target, and successfully observe the guy, you need to actually hit him to even initiate the death attack. That's dex again, or maybe strength.
If any part doesn't work, you're screwed. If your first attack doesn't hit, you're screwed. If the guy makes his save, you're screwed.
Because you're good for nothing except that one thing.
The rogue, while not able to kill with that one attack, is more likely to hit with his attack, and with others. He doesn't fight like a fighter - he fights like a rogue, moving in and out of danger with agility, hitting when the opportunity presents itself, working with the rest of the party.
The fact is, the assassin has some strengths, but they're not suitable for parties, and he's locked in on those strengths. Death attack is very specialised.
And if you want to increase your chances for that, you cripple yourself to the point where you're a closet wizard who traded the whole realm of magic with one trick you cannot set up right.
I agree with nearly all your points save one: Skills. An assassin focused on death attack will most likely have more skill ranks than a straight rogue by high levels. Why? His intelligence?
Two things:
1. I compared classes, not builds.
2. Let's go into ability scores, then:
Most standard rogues will only have a fair intelligence (probably 10 to 14) since they get so many ranks already, but an assassin dedicated to his Death Attack will generally have a MUCH higher intelligence score in order to keep his Death Attack DC competitive.
Your assassin, overspecialising in int, will have a really, really crappy dex. That will hurt his AC, his Initiative score, his skill bonuses for a lot of skills that are important to rogues, and to assassins in general, his attack rolls, his reflex saves.
He will be a nice killer in case he can get to his victim and actually hit, but for everything else, you can put him back into his pod.
It's like the wizard.
It's so unlike the wizard that I get the feeling we're debating the Vampire Computer Game versus LARPing on drugs.
The wizard can pull off overspecialising in intelligence, because he can use it all the time. The assassin will probably not even live to see his first PrC level.
It's true the assassin won't have the lead in skills the entire time (at low-levels the rogue does better while the assassin tries to catch up), but he certainly will most of the time (approximately the latter 2/3 of his career).
Assuming the assassin lives that long, by the time he can scrape together some XP to advance to, say, 12th character level, the rogue will be epic with his active lifestyle.
Any player who doesn't have a primary score of at least 30 and a secondary score of at least 24 by 20th-level is either (1) in a stingy low-magic game or (2) is so far away from knowing how to make an effective character that the rogue VS assassin debate isn't going to matter.
Ah. The old "If you don't play at my power level, you're having badwrongfun."
Those pathfinder society characters are all created by idiots apparently, run by Tyrant GMs.