Optimal alignment for the Summoner Class


Advice


I was originally of the opinion that CN or LN would be the best alignment to take for the Summoner class purely from a games optimisation point of view. The reasons for this are fairly obvious. With summoning as a spell-like ability a powerful feature of the class, the ability to summon a wider array of creatures with either the celestial or fiendish template is hard to ignore.

However, I'm now of the opinion that LG or CG would be more optimal. There are 2 reasons for this and they both have to do with options that can be taken from the Evolution Pool.

1. 1 point spend for your Eidolon for Magic Attacks (Su): part of which reads along the lines that if the summoner is at least 10th lvl, all of the eidolon’s weapons are treated as the eidolon's alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At later levels, your Eidolon will need this ability to avoid being useless against more powerful creatures that have damage resistance that you are likely to encounter such as Demons and Devils.

2. 3 points spend for your Eidolon on Damage Reduction (Su): for 5 or 10 points of DR depending on how many points you sink in. Part of this mentions Choosing an alignment: be it chaotic, evil, good, or lawful. The eidolon gains DR 5 that can be bypassed by weapons that possess that alignment. The alignment must be opposite to one of the alignments that is possessed by the eidolon. So Neutral Good is no use because you don't want to select DR 5 or 10/evil as most encounters are evil creatures.

So with CG or LG you can gain effective DR and overcome DR which are 2 of the most potent (and some might say essential) evolution pool choices to take.

This is all purely from an optimisation point of view and takes no consideration for flavour. So what do people think? Have I missed anything in my assessment?


I still think the summoning list benefit of neutrality is larger than that of the possible DR bypass on evil outsiders, or the having DR versus evil (which those saidsame outsiders would be bypassing themselves). Neutrality still gives you Chaotic or Lawful which is the axis you'd be choosing on when going against evil outsiders anyway.

That said, the ability to summon both celestial and fiendish creatures, typically en masse, easily makes up for that - you can pick and choose the summoned creatures based on THEIR DR and alignments for those fights, using the eidolon to distract the enemy, or to simply protect you while those summoned creatures hammer away at the enemy.

You can make up for the 5 or 10 points lost to DR per strike by way of summoned creatures that can bypass that DR. Or hell, just give your eidolon weapon proficiency and a weapon to use for those fights. Voila! But there's no easy workaround to losing access to fiendish creatures.


I believe only Clerics are actually prohibited from summoning creatures of the opposite alignment.

Dark Archive

If you're gonna be set in Andoran a country neighboring Nidal or Cheliax and expect to be facing those sorts of foes, Chaotic Good is the best bet to face the Lawful Evil dominated opposition.

If Mendev or Lastwall or Ustalav is going to be your stomping grounds, Lawful Good, to counter Chaotic Evil foes (demons, orcs, vampires & werewolves, etc.) might be a better choice.

Regardless of which alignment you pick, you'll be able to summon celestials or fiends, or, if and when they appear, lawful (axiomatic/exemplar) or chaotic (anarchic/protean/pandaemonic) templated outsiders, without issue, since you're not a Cleric.

This is, of course, totally gamist, and some would say that you're a bad, bad person for playing a good, good character for such mechanical reasons. :)


VoodooMike wrote:
You can make up for the 5 or 10 points lost to DR per strike by way of summoned creatures that can bypass that DR. Or hell, just give your eidolon weapon proficiency and a weapon to use for those fights. Voila! But there's no easy workaround to losing access to fiendish creatures.

The weapon proficiency is not always optimal on some Eidolon builds. As soon as you choose weapon proficiency, all your Eidolon's primary natural attacks become secondary on top of having to dip into the evolution pool to get weapon proficiency in the first place.

Admittedly, I haven't studied the summon monster list closely. I'm now wondering if there are monsters that are an absolute 'must have' with the fiendish template at each summon monster level, 1 through to 9. In other words, are there well known examples of summoned monsters that are clearly better as fiendish templates over celestial choices or those with no template at all?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
I believe only Clerics are actually prohibited from summoning creatures of the opposite alignment.

This. Clerics are specifically not allowed to cast spells opposed to their alignment, which is why they can't summon against their alignment. I don't think Summoners have this limitation.

Liberty's Edge

Have you ever considered just dropping the 20K to get your Eidolon an amulet of Mighty Fists with the Holy enchanement on it? This way you would not have to sacrafice summoning choices for end-game eidolon utility.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Pathfinder SRD wrote:
When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type. Creatures on Table 10–1 marked with an “*” are summoned with the celestial template, if you are good, and the fiendish template, if you are evil. If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature. Creatures marked with an “*” always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment. Summoning these creatures makes the summoning spell's type match your alignment.

(Emphasis mine)

Neutral is the best choice because except for Summon Monster VIII and IX, every level has Celestial and Fiendish creatures. Being able to choose between celestial or fiendish (or axiomatic/anarchic if that gets released) would be most advantageous for versatility.

Plus a morally ambiguous summoner who is as likely to entreat with angels as demons would be a compelling character.


MaxAstro wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
I believe only Clerics are actually prohibited from summoning creatures of the opposite alignment.
This. Clerics are specifically not allowed to cast spells opposed to their alignment, which is why they can't summon against their alignment. I don't think Summoners have this limitation.

Yea they don't, it is an optimisation thread and not an alignment debate, so aside from a slight pang of disagreement for your blasphemous ways.. I am still inclined to say your eidolon's superior to your other summons by far and the penetration of DR might be very useful, typically you do not need to summon fiends anyway evil vs evil is less than optimal.

LG and CG alignment is a good choice for your eidolon, your summoner might ofcourse be punished by several blackguards and fiendish summons using smite good though.

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