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The thing that always confuses me is people who play the game with other people. How does that work? If you have other people at the table, they might not make the optimal decision in every situation or build their characters the wrong way. If you roll dice at a table with other people, you're doing it wrong. D&D is a series of logical and absolute axioms, which can be derived and solved. It's not really a game if you can't win.ur doin it wong...
All Pathfinder games should be either
1)a fighter of "x" level vs. a creature of challenge rating equal to "x"
or
2)a wizard of "x" level vs. a creature of challenge rating equal to "x".
all of which occurs in a white void independent of anything but the combat at hand.
See, since no actuaries were nice enough to quit their high paying jobs at insurance companies to come and make game rules that statistically balance all classes perfectly in all situations, we really need to finish this wizards vs. fighters thing through some form of a war of attrition. It's been raging too long. The endgame is nighe.
We're all winners. We're on the internet.
Similarly, most people don't want to waste the time and effort tracking food and water, and again, I think that's entirely reasonable. Create Water serves an important in-game function by letting you hand waive away that component. The same is true for Know Direction and getting lost. But, if you're running a game that wants to include these hazards (as trivial as they may seem), these spells are disruptive.
Only if you are failing to include magic in the calculations for how to run a fantasy world where magic is commonplace (or at the very least expected among PCs). And even if it wasn't, all of those things are almost as trivial using the Survival skill.
The very point of those spells is to solve basic problems of finding food, water, and magnetic north in a world where magic exists but not everyone is a woodsman.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. :)
I cast the "I win" cantrip.
No one is making the claim that the players having access to a compass is a problem. In fact, I'm not even claiming that running a game where it's impossible to get lost is a problem. I was discussing how infinite cantrips have caused issue in my game, and, to be fair, wasn't as precise initially in describing the nature of the issue. That got strawmanned by the "if you don't play D&D as epic combat with incidental details swept aside, you're doing it wrong" crowd (particularly those who are well known here at Paizo for regularly trolling edition war threads and making such arguments), and hence additional a!@~%*&ry got heaped on top.
Except nobody has claimed that you need to play it as epic combat with incidental details swept aside. Seriously, not even I said that.
What we did say was "You're upset that the cantrip gives them a 1gp compass," because that's literally the only thing the spell does. You were throwing a fit that the cleric had access to a compass. Don't try to backpedal out of that now.
So, if we step back from the straman argument that no one is making, here's what the problem has been in my game. I've been using the getting lost rules. There are different DCs for the checks in the Survival skill (which is not terrain dependent) and in the description of the various wilderness types (which is terrain dependent). It ranges from 10-18 (I think). This is not entirely trivial for low level characters - I've had a ranger with ranks in Survival get the party lost more than once. We didn't have the adventurer's armory when we started the campaign, so they don't have a compass.
I would think that you don't need the Adventurer's Armory to have someone go "Hey, how about a compass?" Well wait, I can see why they wouldn't, since...
The trouble with Know Direction is that it's not clear what it does. The spell doesn't say anything like "grants a +X bonus to Survival checks because you know where north is." It says you know north, but you can get lost again in moments. Which, seems to imply, that casting it means you are automatically not lost. The fact that you may become lost moments later is irrelevant if you can cast Know Direction infinitely. Again, I don't think this is the only way to read the spell, or even the correct way, but it's an argument that's been tossed around at my table. Given that I want to use the getting lost rules (because my campaign is not about getting from point A to point B, where getting lost is just a frustrating event), I'm not happy that Know Direction seems to circumvent getting lost entirely.
...Have you read the spell? It's "You know north." Seriously, that's all it is. I'm getting the sense that you did not in fact read the spell, as you seem to think that it creates a giant magical topographic map for your players. This is why we were all so confused. You were claiming that knowing where north is at any time was overpowered. Because that's what the spell does. It's not vague or unclear. Someone just copied out the entire spell. It tells you where north is.
To recap: I don't think Know Direction is broken, I don't think it makes someone automatically unlost, but I also am not sure what effect it is supposed to have. I understand that most people playing D&D want to get from the town to the adventure location without screwing around with the getting lost rules, and that's entirely reasonable. Similarly, most people don't want to waste the time and effort tracking food and water, and again, I think that's entirely reasonable. Create Water serves an important in-game function by letting you hand waive away that component. The same is true for Know Direction and getting lost. But, if you're running a game that wants to include these hazards (as trivial as they may seem), these spells are disruptive.
Ok, let me show you how to prevent these problems from breaking out at your table.
Step one: Read what the spell does.
Step two: Read what skills do.
Wanna keep track of food and water? Create water only solves one of those problems. So hey, now they can starve to death! But there's one caveat - just like with Know Direction, Survival solves this problem, too. The DC to be able to find food and water for one person in the wilderness? Ten. Anyone can do that, so long as they don't have negative wisdom. Survival can be used untrained. It slows their movement down by half, mind you, so you can easily incorporate that in somehow.
Have you read the rules for various skills? I don't think you have. Before complaining about the rules, for the love of god, read them.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Except nobody has claimed that you need to play it as epic combat with incidental details swept aside. Seriously, not even I said that.What we did say was "You're upset that the cantrip gives them a 1gp compass," because that's literally the only thing the spell does. You were throwing a fit that the cleric had access to a compass. Don't try to backpedal out of that now.
Far be it from me to argue with a professor - I thought you were making a semi-funny joke at my expense, which is fine by me, but I see you're actually committed to asshattery. Am I committed to the position you allege I held for my entire life, or is there some process through which I can refine and explain it further? Or, since you know what I'm saying better than I do, maybe I can just defer to your insightful and not at all straw-based "analysis". Will it be on my tombstone? If so, can it also have a dirty lymrick? I like those.
I would think that you don't need the Adventurer's Armory to have someone go "Hey, how about a compass?" Well wait, I can see why they wouldn't, since...
You're so smart! Tell me more, professor! I honestly wasn't aware that compasses existed before adventurers armory came out. It was very shocking to me, which probably helps explain my confusion. I apologize for posting in ignorance here, particularly when someone so educated and well informed as you would be reading. I feel as though I've failed you, and I don't know if I can ever make amends.
...Have you read the spell? It's "You know north." Seriously, that's all it is. I'm getting the sense that you did not in fact read the spell, as you seem to think that it creates a giant magical topographic map for your players. This is why we were all so confused. You were claiming that knowing where north is at any time was overpowered. Because that's what the spell does. It's not vague or unclear. Someone just copied out the entire spell. It tells you where north is.
If you must know, I never learned to read. I hope you had fun mocking my disability. Also, the direction north itself is overpowered, which is really what I've been arguing. Using north in your games implies south, and if you have north and south, that's the making of a civil war. That's why I ban north. Which is what I've been saying all along, as you've so cleverly noted.
I bet you have a PhD in awesome!
Ok, let me show you how to prevent these problems from breaking out at your table.Step one: Read what the spell does.
Step two: Read what skills do.Wanna keep track of food and water? Create water only solves one of those problems. So hey, now they can starve to death! But there's one caveat - just like with Know Direction, Survival solves this problem, too. The DC to be able to find food and water for one person in the wilderness? Ten. Anyone can do that, so long as they don't have negative wisdom. Survival can be used untrained. It slows their movement down by half, mind you, so you can easily incorporate that in somehow.
Have you read the rules for various skills? I don't think you have. Before complaining about the rules, for the love of god, read them.
Oooh! You should write more. You're wisdom is truely a thing to behold. Stunning in its majesty. It's a shame your reading comprehension does not rise to the same level.
You didn't address my comments about how the game doesn't track caloric intake. If you don't track calories in the game, you can't run it realistically, and that's all I care about. Can you suggest some rules for how to handle that issue? Better yet, could you come over and just run my game for me? I think my players are tired of my incompetence, and an internet stud like yourself would certainly awe them.
Anyway, you fail too.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Similarly, most people don't want to waste the time and effort tracking food and water, and again, I think that's entirely reasonable. Create Water serves an important in-game function by letting you hand waive away that component. The same is true for Know Direction and getting lost. But, if you're running a game that wants to include these hazards (as trivial as they may seem), these spells are disruptive.Only if you are failing to include magic in the calculations for how to run a fantasy world where magic is commonplace (or at the very least expected among PCs). And even if it wasn't, all of those things are almost as trivial using the Survival skill.
The very point of those spells is to solve basic problems of finding food, water, and magnetic north in a world where magic exists but not everyone is a woodsman.
Actually, I'm not failing, I...
Hey...waitaminute...you almost tricked me into engaging in discussing the substance of this topic with you.
kinda liek a sky marshall....
oh, damn! I kill me!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I love these forums. I'd flag posts, but I'm pretty sure they'd just say 'its sebastian again' and leave.
I have to admit, this one's a bit of an oddity. Normally, I'm the one doing the trolling and pushing buttons; it's funny to see people trying it on me.
Not particularly effective, but funny.
I love these forums. I'd flag posts, but I'm pretty sure they'd just say 'its sebastian again' and leave.I have to admit, this one's a bit of an oddity. Normally, I'm the one doing the trolling and pushing buttons; it's funny to see people trying it on me.
Not particularly effective, but funny.
I find it hilarious that you accuse anyone who attempts to disagree with your position of being a troll, regardless of the substance of said accusation.
The attacks on infinite cantrips from the old-school switch-overs to Pathfinder are both amusing and sad, except maybe against Detect Magic but that only makes it worthy of a more open discussion. The other cantrips held up as symbols of the failure of the system aren't quite as contentious if taken alone. Create Water. Purify Food and Drink. Know Direction. Spells like these are meant to solve simple problems in a fantasy world where magic is fairly common. Of course, no one would care one bit about them if not for attempts to insert arbitrary challenges into a game without taking into account that spells were already introduced into the game for the very purpose of solving or bypassing said challenges. God forbid some DM wants to insert into the game some sort of arbitrary challenge that involves cleaning a house. Then Prestidigination will be added to the list of unbalanced cantrips destroying the DM's game world by making it too simple to perform a simple task with simple magic.
I've disagreed with Sebastian on several occasions but I've never been labeled as a troll. Another theory?
Far be it from me to argue with a professor - I thought you were making a semi-funny joke at my expense, which is fine by me, but I see you're actually committed to asshattery. Am I committed to the position you allege I held for my entire life, or is there some process through which I can refine and explain it further? Or, since you know what I'm saying better than I do, maybe I can just defer to your insightful and not at all straw-based "analysis". Will it be on my tombstone? If so, can it also have a dirty lymrick? I like those.
You aren't refuting my statement, I noticed.
You're so smart! Tell me more, professor! I honestly wasn't aware that compasses existed before adventurers armory came out. It was very shocking to me, which probably helps explain my confusion. I apologize for posting in ignorance here, particularly when someone so educated and well informed as you would be reading. I feel as though I've failed you, and I don't know if I can ever make amends.
Again, you aren't refuting my statement.
If you must know, I never learned to read. I hope you had fun mocking my disability. Also, the direction north itself is overpowered, which is really what I've been arguing. Using north in your games implies south, and if you have north and south, that's the making of a civil war. That's why I ban north. Which is what I've been saying all along, as you've so cleverly noted.
I bet you have a PhD in awesome!
And yet again, you aren't refuting my statement. Incidentally, I'm a professor of laser.
Oooh! You should write more. You're wisdom is truely a thing to behold. Stunning in its majesty. It's a shame your reading comprehension does not rise to the same level.
You didn't address my comments about how the game doesn't track caloric intake. If you don't track calories in the game, you can't run it realistically, and that's all I care about. Can you suggest some rules for how to handle that issue? Better yet, could you come over and just run my game for me? I think my players are tired of my incompetence, and an internet stud like yourself would certainly awe them.
Anyway, you fail too.
Surprise surprise, you haven't refuted any of my statements.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I find it hilarious that you accuse anyone who attempts to disagree with your position of being a troll, regardless of the substance of said accusation.
Not everyone, just you. The professor is more an attack of opportunity guy who's pretty good with the insults. I find his posts to be clever for the most part, and, I must admit, were clever even in deployment against me. I'm not certain what moro's beef is, my best guess is that you saved his life in Nam or he has some heretofor unknown beef with me, but I've never interacted with (or noticed) the guy before this thread, and couldn't call him a troll.
But you have a history of edition war trolling, and that's what your initial post was. You were trying to make the edition warrior point that pfrpg tracks things that are irrelevant/stupid from the perspective of playing the game the only/best way it should be played. It's obvious a mile off that you were trying to play that game, and I called you on it.
I've been happy to have a discussion about getting lost, have made several responses to those who've shown respect, and would be happy to engage in a discussion with them all day long. You're not interested in a discussion, you're interested in scoring edition war points which, presumably, you can trade in for some fuzzy dice or something. The professor's not really interested in discussing either, he's interested in showing off his own cleverness, but, like I said, he's actually funny, a quality that you sadly lack.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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You aren't refuting my statement, I noticed.
I don't need to.
Again, you aren't refuting my statement.
I still don't need to.
And yet again, you aren't refuting my statement. Incidentally, I'm a professor of laser.
And yet again, I don't need to.
You're a professor of laser? Do you have a laser gun? Or are you a super villian, Professor Laser?
Surprise surprise, you haven't refuted any of my statements.
I love this thread.
But you have a history of edition war trolling, and that's what your initial post was. You were trying to make the edition warrior point that pfrpg tracks things that are irrelevant/stupid from the perspective of playing the game the only/best way it should be played. It's obvious a mile off that you were trying to play that game, and I called you on it.
Obviously the edition war here is 3.5 vs Pathfinder. Which is a rather pertinent 'war' to have as Pathfinder is the spiritual successor of 3.5 and it makes sense to compare Pathfinder changes to the base in 3.5 that they were derived from. I disagree with the change to Power Attack, and other things. But that is neither here nor there in a discussion of the cantrip hate of those introducing arbitrary challenges into their game that these cantrips automatically defeat. And did well before they were made infinite, though making them infinite increases their ability to do what they were designed to do in the first place.
Your continued claims of superiority to me and said superiority obviating the need to reply to the substance of my posts is increasingly hypocritical.
I bet you have a PhD in awesome!
HEY! They don't hand those out like hard candy, ya know.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Obviously the edition war here is 3.5 vs Pathfinder. Which is a rather pertinent 'war' to have as Pathfinder is the spiritual successor of 3.5 and it makes sense to compare Pathfinder changes to the base in 3.5 that they were derived from. I disagree with the change to Power Attack, and other things. But that is neither here nor there in a discussion of the cantrip hate of those introducing arbitrary challenges into their game that these cantrips automatically defeat. And did well before they were made infinite, though making them infinite increases their ability to do what they were designed to do in the first place.Your continued claims of superiority to me and said superiority obviating the need to reply to the substance of my posts is increasingly hypocritical.
Are you still talking?
The professor's not really interested in discussing either
I don't need to.
You aren't refuting my statement, I noticed.
One of these things is not like the other
One of these things does not belong
a discussion of the cantrip hate of those introducing arbitrary challenges into their game that these cantrips automatically defeat. And did well before they were made infinite, though making them infinite increases their ability to do what they were designed to do in the first place.
Right. I only mentioned detect magic, create water, and purify food and drink.
Detect magic is obviously problematic for some GMs, less because of actual power and more because the rules are so ambiguous on certain topics that it's easy to catch a GM of guard and get away with stuff.
Create water can ruin a good low level challenge in a desert campaign. Other than that I don't care, but lame players might try and use it as a power source, etc.
Purify food and drink seems innocent enough, but my GM was trying to run a game based on a plague and famine where edible food was scarce. Both he and I were surprised that a first level cleric was able to feed an effectively infinite number of people in this scenario. I was sad to see the plot breaking at my own hands.
I don't see anything about this issue worth fighting over. The only purpose of discussing it in public like this is to help other GMs so they can either houserule or prepare themselves and not be caught off-guard by the changes.
All of the personal sniping in this thread is catastrophically boring.
All of the personal sniping in this thread is catastrophically boring.
Smurfin' right.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The professor's not really interested in discussing eitherI don't need to.
You aren't refuting my statement, I noticed.One of these things is not like the other
One of these things does not belong
Come on. I know you can do better. I also know you know exactly what I'm talking about. I also know that you know that I know that you know that pie is good.
You can do better than trying to pull this with me.
