I'd like to discuss what everyone's feelings are regarding 1-hp minions such as we see in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3E or D&D 4e.
As a player, I enjoy slaying minions and as a Gm, I think they make shutting down the BBEG a little more difficult (and fun).
What are your thoughts for adding them to Pathfinder?
Jh
Honestly I find the idea of slaughtering a bunch of 1hp minions boring. I like doing damage! Why cast a big damage area effect spell when you know that a 1d6 spell with the same radius will have the same effect? I guess this makes those 2d6 fireballs you get from the Necklace of Fireballs actually worth something, and you can use Acid Splash and Ray of Frost to take out bad guys with 1 shot, 1 kill, but really, do you want to?
This will of course be a matter of preference, but, in my opinion, I say leave that cheese for 4e.
I don't like them. They impede my suspension of disbelief.
I prefer the idea that anybody could be significant, that every human, every orc, every kobold has potential. Most do not come close to fulfilling all their potential, but it is there, and that is where the PCs began as well.
I also prefer the idea that if you are going to kill something, that it should be an effort. Even if you want to slaughter goblin mates and children in the lair (which goes against the Laws set down for Audor by Odin the Allfather Himself, but PCs don't allow follow the laws), even killing goblin children should require an effort to hit and do damage. It might not be much effort, as a single Fireball spell could pretty much do the job. But the point is, that there needs to be an effort.
It makes the game a little bit more complicated for me as GM, because when the PCs are set upon by a mob of commoners, I have to take into account that a weapon blow or spell might only wound rather than kill one of these low level beings. But I think it is worth it to maintain the illusion that there is a metaphysical reality behind what is happening, and it is a relatively "democratic" reality.
I'd like to discuss what everyone's feelings are regarding 1-hp minions such as we see in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3E or D&D 4e.
As a player, I enjoy slaying minions and as a Gm, I think they make shutting down the BBEG a little more difficult (and fun).
What are your thoughts for adding them to Pathfinder?
Jh
I suppose my question(s) would be: What's the point? What do these accomplish that having lower CR minions for a BBEG wouldn't?
I feel like there's really no need to add a minion mechanic to the game. Things like Pugwampis can serve the same purpose, but are a lot more interesting.
I like 'em myself.
They fit fantasy tropes perfectly. When you read books, watch movies, or play games, the hero doesn't stand there for several minutes hacking all of the Evil Bad Dude's minions to death, he swings his blade once and sends them to the ground. Minions would make evocation spells actually useful, as doing AoE damage suddenly has a point.
As was mentioned, the idea is that the minions have a proper attack and damage, but they have only one "hit." It's not even one HP - if you cast fireball and they succeed in the reflex DC, then they'd dodge it. it can add a fun challenge to the players, and let you use some more fantasy tropes and cliches.
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reasons FOR Mooks, regardless of number of HP...
saves bookkeeping for GM
actually provides casters a reason to even bother to prepare lower level spells, which face it after a certain point are almost NEVER used anymore and are a waste of time to even write them down
make for some exciting moments as the players wade through huge swaths of enemies
IS more realistic, in fact, than everyone fighting to the death. Some guys shoves three feet of steel through your stomach do you REALLY think you are going to stand there and let him do it AGAIN?
Now I go for a slightly different method of mooks than the 1 hp mechanic. I use MORALE. Yeah that little line in the stat block that nearly always says "he's stupid and fights to the death." I replace that with "Will fight until hit once (or twice or three times or sees half his comrades killed, then attempts to flee or FAKES his death (Bluff check).
So the guy COULD have 40HP but he might stay for a hit or two then flee or fake his death. WHY do that? Well, PCs are stupid. They see an NPC fall and they assume they killed him and congratulate themselves and celebrate. Then they wonder how the mook survived and came back to fight them again a bit later (called healing potion!). MOST PCs assume I, as GM, am either cheating or having them "Raised from the Dead!" Ummm did anyone CHECK to see if he was dead? Nope...
Now, I don't award XP if the guy fakes his death to come back later. The PCs didn't really "vanquish" him, just delayed the fight. If they DO manage to kill him later, or arrive at a situation where he won't ever come back to bother them, THEN I award XP for the mook. BUT they only get that XP once.
This is the "Live Today to Fight Another Day" method, in my opinion. Stupid NPCs, "Leaders" too brave and arrogant to know better, and mooks caught between certain death if they stay and certain death if they flee are about all I usually have stand and fight to the death.
Yes, it is a tragic failing of the underlying d20 game mechanic that HD, HP, Saves, and BAB are all tied together. Our game system doesn't have room for a BBEG to have a minion who can make 3 attacks at +15/+10/+5 and yet can be killed by an arrow, a sword thrust, or even a fireball (heck, even if you give that minion 1s on all his HD and give him CON mod, there's a very good chance that he could make the reflex save and survive a 10d6 fireball).
So, to make minions, you either make them lower HD (which means lower HP but also means lower saves and lower BAB, or you make them with a challenging number of HD which means they have so many HP that they are not the one-shot-one-kill minions we've all come to know and love in the cinema.
However, there is one thing to consider in our beloved cinema. Our heroes may slaughter hordes of minions on their way into the BBEG's lair, but it's definitely worth noting that those minions never really stop or even hurt our bad guy.
Based on that observation, it would be cinematically accurate to use low-HD minions. Our heroes one-shot them into oblvion, and in return, the minions get nothing but whiffs, clanks, and maybe a lucky scratch or two - all their attacks are really just a waste of time, like in the cinema.
But then what's the point? Movies are expected to be of a certain length, with a certain amount of action, and with the BBEG only confronted at the end. That's the formula. But RPGs don't rely on that formula. Our players aren't paying their admission and expecting to get around 2 hours of entertainment. Our forumula doesn't require hordes of minions being one-shotted while they make worthless attacks.
So why not just stick with the game mechanics as presented? Why not use a much smaller number of believable minions that fit within established game rules?
Either way works, I guess. Me, I try to stick to the rules when I can, so my answer to the OP is no, I won't use them, and the above are "my thoughts" on the pros/cons.
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Now, I don't award XP if the guy fakes his death to come back later. The PCs didn't really "vanquish" him, just delayed the fight. If they DO manage to kill him later, or arrive at a situation where he won't ever come back to bother them, THEN I award XP for the mook. BUT they only get that XP once.
At this point a horde of mooks that are so easy to defeat would probably only merit an APL XP award at best then. I often throw minions at my PC's to let them feel like they're super heroic badasses... because they are. But when big bosses or even lieutenants enter the fray things get ugly and bloody!
--Vrockslide!
Low level creatures still have their uses at high levels.
For one thing, it makes the world more believable. Why do all the creatures they fight get tougher just because the PCs earned XP from the previous fights? My theory is that they always face a mix of threats -- at low levels they need to retreat from tough creatures and large numbers of weaker creatures. At high levels they can then take on the tough creatures and fight their way through larger hordes of the weaker ones. But there will still be times when they just encounter two or three 1st level Warriors and that's just what happens.
For another thing, low level creatures can make PCs use resources. Low level creatures can still hit and do damage unless the PCs are really loaded up with protection, and even then a natural 20 still hits. They can also trip, trap, grapple, use up Attacks of Opportunity, activate magic items, open and close doors, throw nets, all sorts of things to harass, annoy or even stop PCs. Or perhaps, before the party can get to the Chamber of the Evil Warlord, they need to get past a troop of 30 2nd level fighters and rogues.
Even a 1st level spellcaster of almost any class can cast Obscuring Mist.
Low level creatures can also get in the way. I once saw an 11th level barbarian charge into a horde of zombies that showed up during a battle. Basically they were terrain, but the barbarian was still slowed down to a 5 foot movement, on the other hand, he now had cover from the high level sharpshooters shooting at him.
Low level creatures can also flank. If there is a high level rogue in the battle, even putting a 1st level warrior on the other side of the PC means the Rogue now gets sneak attack.
Low level creatures also give other PCs something to do if they can't go toe to toe with Mr. Evil Warlord.
I do admit that I have cut corners some times in 3rd Edition.
I once had a situation where a PC was attacked by half a dozen commoners, and I hadn't prepared for that particular event, so I rolled six d6s, and determined that each d6 determined the ranged combat bonus of one commoner. So that's all I knew about the commoners was their combat bonus, which was simply determined as 1d6.
If I had needed hit points, I suppose I could use 1d6 plus the combat bonus to determine that Commoner's hit points.
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So why not just stick with the game mechanics as presented? Why not use a much smaller number of believable minions that fit within established game rules?
While I agree, that lowering down to 1HP doesn't make much sense by the rules, adjusting morale IS perfectly within the rules.
The reason to adjust mechanics is for the sake of variety. I don't know about you guys, but when the NPCs do the exact same thing every time, fights to the death, etc... well... it gets BORING
ANYTHING to me that changes the same old same old is a good thing.
And BTW, when I award XP for my mooks, like I was describing, it is always at a lower XP award. Even if the mook is designed as APL-3, for example, I will likely award XP as APL-4 or -5 depending upon circumstances.
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Low level creatures still have their uses at high levels.
For one thing, it makes the world more believable. Why do all the creatures they fight get tougher just because the PCs earned XP from the previous fights? My theory is that they always face a mix of threats -- at low levels they need to retreat from tough creatures and large numbers of weaker creatures. At high levels they can then take on the tough creatures and fight their way through larger hordes of the weaker ones. But there will still be times when they just encounter two or three 1st level Warriors and that's just what happens.
For another thing, low level creatures can make PCs use resources. Low level creatures can still hit and do damage unless the PCs are really loaded up with protection, and even then a natural 20 still hits. They can also trip, trap, grapple, use up Attacks of Opportunity, activate magic items, open and close doors, throw nets, all sorts of things to harass, annoy or even stop PCs. Or perhaps, before the party can get to the Chamber of the Evil Warlord, they need to get past a troop of 30 2nd level fighters and rogues.
Even a 1st level spellcaster of almost any class can cast Obscuring Mist.
Low level creatures can also get in the way. I once saw an 11th level barbarian charge into a horde of zombies that showed up during a battle. Basically they were terrain, but the barbarian was still slowed down to a 5 foot movement, on the other hand, he now had cover from the high level sharpshooters shooting at him.
Low level creatures can also flank. If there is a high level rogue in the battle, even putting a 1st level warrior on the other side of the PC means the Rogue now gets sneak attack.
Low level creatures also give other PCs something to do if they can't go toe to toe with Mr. Evil Warlord.
mmm in many ways we think alike, and I just thought of a different WAY of think of mooks...
When I design a BBEG fight, it is in more than an empty 20'x20' room. It will usually be a LARGE, multifloor, chamber, with columns, stairs, ramps, furniture... stuff that can be used for cover and concealment, stuff that can limit movement, stuff that adds flavor to the fight... instead of an empty, boring room which no one will ever find memorable...
Well... mooks are more flavor... they are moving columns, difficult terrain, flavor! to make the fight memorable.
Which would you be likely to remember 10 years from now?
"We fought the Vampire Lord in an empty 20'x20' room and killed him in two rounds."
or...
"We entered this vast chamber with marble columns forming a corridor that led to curving stairs to a second floor. The Vampire Lord sneered at us from the balcony and laughed as we realized we had to fight nearly a score of his Brood. I raced down the center of the room, slashing at Broodlings, my flaming blade leaving a trail of screaming death behind me. Justin, the Ranger, shot out the ropes securing the crystal chandelier. It collapsed in a raucous crash, crushing some of the Brood. Marko, the Wizard, moved from column to column, staying out of line of effect until he could get into position to attack the Vampire Lord, while Neela, the Cleric used her Channel Energy from behind columns and cover from the Vampire Lord, to vaporize the Brood. Finally we dashed up the stairs, but the damned monster had retreated! His laughter taunted us...
I for one find the first fight to be boring and anticlimactic. I'd probably forget about it before I even got home that night...
In the second fight the mooks are flavor. They are more furniture, columns, stairs, but these fight back. I do NOT use them like in a movie, where they do NOTHING to the hero. They have their full attacks and powers, and can hurt the PCs if they are stupid. But they have a low morale, and after a hit or two, stop fighting. Why? because the REAL purpose of the scene is the BBEG, not the mooks? WHy have the mooks then? Because it is more exciting than an empty 20'x20' room. They have flavor. And I GUARANTEE you the players WILL remember that fight later on.
Seriously... just TRY it once. Next time you run a fight, populate the BBEG fight with some APL -3 mooks with a low morale of one or two hits... award XP as APL -4 or -5... really not that much XP, but it is exciting for the players... see if the players enjoy it. Be sure to make the setting interesting as well.
Then next time after THAT try the usual, boring empty 20'x20' room with just the BBEG. See how much faster the boring fights goes. Ask the players which was more fun...
We play to have FUN, not to enforce the mechanics of the game.
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I had fun one day when I had a group of gnolls, led by an uber Gnoll Barbarian so mutated with two templates that the PCs literally did not know they were hitting.
Mr. Uber Gnoll Barbarian With Two Templates went down in the second round. Meanwhile, standing next to him, Mr. Unremarkable Gnoll #2 got renamed to Mr. Caffeinated Gnoll because he kept saving vs the Wizard's Sleep spells, and kept going, and just wouldn't go down.
There's always one gnoll who refuses to die.
I'd like to discuss what everyone's feelings are regarding 1-hp minions such as we see in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3E or D&D 4e.
As a player, I enjoy slaying minions and as a Gm, I think they make shutting down the BBEG a little more difficult (and fun).
What are your thoughts for adding them to Pathfinder?
Jh
No, for me. It undercuts the mechanics of the game (BAB / HD for example) and doesn't serve a purpose that low level characters / monsters can't fill. When enemies hit regularly and make saving throws it feels like a "cheat" to players if they don't have the durability in combat that they "should have". To players it can seem like either the DM is fudging the dice one way (to hit / save) or the other (to die easily). It breaks the "rules" and feels cheesy, imo of course.
Then too, I like a more "simulationist" approach as a DM. As someone mentioned above, one of the underlying assumptions of 3E / 3.5 / PF is that the rules apply to both pc, npc and monster alike. It's why there are npc classes to allow every simple farmer npc to "play by the rules", just like the PCs. It's what sold me on 3E when it came out. I had always hesitated to move to a new edition (from original D&D to AD&D, from 1E AD&D to 2E AD&D). This was a natural move for a sandbox / open type campaign like mine. I suppose if you were running APs / campaigns with a story arc / ending a "cinematic" mechanic might be more appealing. I should probably duck right now, because I suspect that some AP fans will be irked by this observation...
...You can have "minions" and low level enemies in the same game, you know.
It's not like one prevents you from having the other :I
In 4E you can. Maybe.
But as a DM, I like having a metaphysical basis for things. In my mind, things don't happen just for the convenience of the PCs, unless there is somebody who specifically makes things convenient (e.g. a deity who makes sure the PCs find the +2 Defender she needs for her quest. That never happens).
Why would minions only have 1 hit point? Commoners get 1d4 + CON bonus. What would cause all the 1 hp beings to come together in one place to fight the PCs.
I suppose there could be a spell Summon Minions, which summons a large number of minions with 1 hp each. Maybe there are magic weapons that summon minions. But whatever the NPCs can do, the PCs can do, so that means they can also summon minions if they get the right spell or magic item. Perhaps it costs money and takes time. That would deter PCs, but some of them would still go into the dungeon with their army of minions.
As a personal preference, I prefer having low level creatures vs having mooks/minions/goons which have all the combat durability of cardboard cutouts.
I'd rather send Cardboard Golems vs the PCs.
This is my solution, the idea behgind it being that it is applied to a group of lower level foes. It's not perfect, but it is simple to do on the fly.
Legionary (Simple Template)
Base creature should be CR <= APL-4
Defenses: 1/2 hp if at least hp 20, if so +5 AC
Attacks: +5 circumstance on attack all attack rolls
All attacks do damage = 1/2dice-1 + regular modifier (e.g. 1d6+3 does 2+3=5 damage)
Special Quality: evasion
HP is already an abstraction you do realize :p
And yes, you can easily have both in 3.5. Watch. First, I have the players fight against some low level monsters in an eeevil shrine. Then when they go in deeper, the priest sees them and sends his follower minions to mob them.
I just did the inmpossible.
Also, they don't have "1 HP," they have "one hit." It's a small wording difference but a pretty sizable overall difference.
As to answer why: Because it provides those easy crushed minions much lke the low level monsters, but by artificially inflating their attack it makes them a threat. With low level monsters you can easily run into the problem where only a natural 20 will hit.
I'd like to discuss what everyone's feelings are regarding 1-hp minions such as we see in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3E or D&D 4e.
As a player, I enjoy slaying minions and as a Gm, I think they make shutting down the BBEG a little more difficult (and fun).
What are your thoughts for adding them to Pathfinder?
Jh
If you want minions in PFRPG, you use standard lvl 1 warriors as cannon fodder for the BBEG. For me things like one-shot angels simply shouldn't exist and so while I'm fine with low level mooks playing their role, I let the other monsters live on as they are meant to be.
The best thing if you don't want to track hp, I to look at minimal damage done by your PCs and then just keep track on who can kill your mook by one swing. Otherwise assume that second blow makes the job automatically.
Ugh.
Minions don't have to be 1hp angels.
I just used an example right there on how they can be used in accordance with fantasy stories and tropes while still maintaining low level enemies.
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Actually, this is a much more simulationist way to have competent "minions" within the established framework of the rules. However the PCs will be unlikely to take these.
Against the Few (Teamwork)
You are used to fighting in large numbers against
tougher foes, taking accurate but less deadly
attacks. However you do not fight as hard, beleiving
your foes will be handled by your allies.
Benefit: When you are within 50 ft. of at least two
other creatures with this feat.
You gain a +5 competence bonus on attack rolls
but when dealing damage you do damage equal to
the dice/2 - 1 plus half the regular modifier.
However even when not surrounded by your allies and
thus not receiving the above bonuses, you suffer the
following penalty as you are at heart a coward and used
to fighting more powerful foes. You become disabled
and unconcious at 1/4 your hp. One turn later you must
make a fortitude save equal to 10 + 1/2 your HD or be
dropped to -1 hp. If you succeed you are dropped to 0
hp but remain unconcious.
Among the Many
In fighting more powerful creatures you have learned to
carefully dodge blows, but are less tough and prone to
going down easily.
Prerequisite: Against the Few, Base Attack Bonus +2
Benefit: You gain a +5 competence bonus to AC and the
evasion special quality. However you become disabled and
unconcious as in Against the Few but at 1/2 your hp.
I like to keep with the basic rules, but I do decrease the hitpoints of BBEG sidekicks under average and increase the hp of the BBEG over average hp, effectively making an encounter with the same CR roughly.
The 1 hp mooks might be nice in some unusual scenarios, something like a dreamscape scenario where they are on their way to fight a very real Nightmare Demon. The minions not being much more than semi-real figments.
or.. to simulate borrowed divine powers to stop a demi-god's evil schemes.
Well I actually might consider the Nightmare Demon angle for a one time thing ^
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I use HP stacks for groups of minions.
Rather than having minions with 1 hp, I take all the HP into one big pool. Every time the PCs deal enough damage to kill a minion one drops.
Means I don't have to keep track of individual minions just a "Minion HP".
For example - The party is attacked by a group of 10 Goblins.
I just write: "Minions 60 hp"
Then as damage stacks whenever it clicks over to 6 hp a goblin drops.
(Fighter does 5 damage, followed by the Rogue doing 3 and the Bard doing 4. Goblin drops on Rogue's and Bard's turns, and the Minions have take 12/60 hp).
I use HP stacks for groups of minions.
Rather than having minions with 1 hp, I take all the HP into one big pool. Every time the PCs deal enough damage to kill a minion one drops.
Means I don't have to keep track of individual minions just a "Minion HP".
For example - The party is attacked by a group of 10 Goblins.
I just write: "Minions 60 hp"
Then as damage stacks whenever it clicks over to 6 hp a goblin drops.
(Fighter does 5 damage, followed by the Rogue doing 3 and the Bard doing 4. Goblin drops on Rogue's and Bard's turns, and the Minions have take 12/60 hp).
I think I may be stealing your idea. I like this. Makes things much easier for me as DM and the players don't really know exactly how many hit points the minions have.
I think there are ways within the rules that we can make low level creatures more dangerous.
Assuming 1 level Warrior with +1 BAB:
18 Strength (the BBEG hired tough guys): +4 to hit total +5
Inspire Courage from 5th level Bard: +2 competence bonus total +7
Weapon Focus Feat: +1 to hit total +8
Masterwork Weapons: +1 enhancement bonus total +9 (a little bit pricey, but doable)
Bless spell: +1 morale bonus total +10
Mass Bull's Strength Spell, adding +4 to Strength: +2 to hit total +12
For archers, a greater magic weapon spell can give 50 arrows per casting a +1 enhancement bonus per 4 caster levels, perhaps +3 for a 12th level caster. These can be distributed to archers with 18 Dex and mass cat's grace. Plus these archers could have mass reduce person cast on them, giving them +2 to Dex (+1 to hit) and another +1 Size bonus to hit.
By GM fiat, he could rule the area has an effect similar to desecrate which gives the minions a +1 profane bonus to hit. If this is a place specially descrated by the Gods this could be a +2 or +3 profane bonus.
Also, a guy like me could say there is an enchanted pipe organ here which increases the competence bonus from Inspire Courage by +3.
Putting this all together, 1st level warriors now have +18 to hit in melee, while the archers would have +22 to hit. Do we need more?
The bonuses would be even higher if I assume 20th level casters doing all the buffing up. A 17th level Bard would grant a +4 competence bonus to her allies. But it is more likely that the BBEG would have one or more of her followers do all this spellcasting, so above I assumed relatively mid-level casters.
One thing that could be cool is if the enemies had a spell, or if there was a magic effect in this place, that created duplicates of the low level warriors, similar to mirror image except that it affects multiple targets, and the images each occupy their own squares. Then players would get the satisfying pop pop, pop of seeing enemies go down with one hit, while trying to figure out which images were real.
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I am not in favor of the 1hp mooks, it was on of the things that most bugged me about 4e and I think it is a ok game. In 3e and PFRPG I do something sorta along the same lines as Krome. Not all monsters and mooks fight to the death. Since I know that I award less xp if they escape than if they die since it took less effort on the PC's part to make them run away.
I use HP stacks for groups of minions.
Rather than having minions with 1 hp, I take all the HP into one big pool. Every time the PCs deal enough damage to kill a minion one drops.
Means I don't have to keep track of individual minions just a "Minion HP".
For example - The party is attacked by a group of 10 Goblins.
I just write: "Minions 60 hp"
Then as damage stacks whenever it clicks over to 6 hp a goblin drops.
(Fighter does 5 damage, followed by the Rogue doing 3 and the Bard doing 4. Goblin drops on Rogue's and Bard's turns, and the Minions have take 12/60 hp).
I like this idea. It reminds me of how Witch Hunter: the Invisible World handles minions. Each minion as a threat level and if you deal damage equal or more to the threat level, one drops. Threat level also determines how powerful they are, but that were the similarities end.
Now for your suggestion, do you just take any monster and just give them the pool of hp instead of their own? As a guideline, How would you determine the minion hp and how much?
My XP policy is full XP for final defeat, and half XP for a half-defeat (e.g. the monster runs away to fight the next day), with the other half being awarded when the monster is finally defeated.
I may give full XP if the monster is not killed but runs away never to bother the PCs again, or if the monster is incapacitated, or even if the monster is bypassed in a sufficiently "decisive" way.
So, yes, if the 8th level PCs talk to the 4th level goblin chief, and point out how if fighting starts, the goblin chief will probably get killed, and the goblin chief decides to take his band of vicious goblins somewhere else, I'd give them XP for it.
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1 - the players shouldn't be aware that you're using HP stacks anymore than they would be aware of an individual's max HP. The wizard burns a goblin for 4 damage, then the fighter murders a goblin on his turn (somehow only doing 2 damage). The wizard panics and uses his magic missile on the same goblin for 5 damage. The goblin still stands. At this point the pc should be thinking "oh sh**!" no different than if a goblin rolled max hp while his buddies rolled minimum. -2 if a pc is abusing it, just drop the offending goblin. Requirethe difference in HP to drop the next. - cap it if you like. I don't mind having player characters wade through minions with their mighty thews. HP stacks are supposed to reduce book-keeping and meta-gaming while also producing a genre appropriate method of producing hordes of minions. I should also point out that HP stacks aren't my idea. I'm posting from my phone, but when i hit up a computer I'll post the link if i can find it.
No one-hit-point wonders! Mooks are people, too!
Hear! Hear!
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I tried this in 3.5, adding a horde of one-hit imps to a battle with two invisible enemies.
I hated it.
Maybe I used too many, but all they did was eat up the melee PCs actions, and keep them from focusing on the main bad guys. It was a long, frustrating battle as the fighter cleaved through the mooks and the cleric and monk picked them off one by one.
So I don't think they really add anything to the game.
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Straight from Frank and K's Tomes, here are all the mooks you'll ever need.
“The acolytes of the college of sorceries will not allow an outsider to see the Necromancer.”
The worlds of D&D have a multitude of world altering magicians who slay dragons with their mighty magics and transform the very fabric of history and reality with their minds. But while these characters are often the primary focus of the D&D game, the fact remains that magic is an extremely palpable and utilitarian force in the D&D world, and the vast majority of those who use it are not actually capable of performing such awesome displays of magical prowess. These are the Adepts – the people who wield sorceries in a manner that is entirely unlikely to get their names told in lasting song and story.
Adepts in the Game: Adepts aren’t playable as PCs. They lack the depth and tactical versatility to be an interesting character and they are not powerful enough to pull their weight in any real adventuring setup. They have a CR equal to half their Adept level and don’t get multiclassed with real classes at all. In order to keep this from being potentially unbalanced, we strongly suggest that Adepts show up in groups. So while a 4th level Adept is nominally a CR 2 opponent, he’s not really a good challenge for a 2nd level party. But 2 of them are an appropriate challenge for a 4th level party. And that’s really what the Adept is for – showing up in groups and getting smacked around anyway.
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: The Adept’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Any, Int), Profession.
Skills/Level: 2 + Intelligence Bonus
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Replaceable, Elemental Attack
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Dangerous Magic
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 Versatile Magic
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 Defensive Magic
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 Specific Magic
All of the following are Class Features of the Adept class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An Adept is proficient with all simple weapons, as well as Light Armor.
Replaceable: Adepts represent the faceless hordes of assistant spellcasters, acolytes, and cultists. They are intended to be easy to use, and relatively easy to replace. Instead of worrying about the feats that an Adept has, simply give Adepts +1 to the damage of their magic powers for each feat they would be eligible for.
Elemental Attack (Sp): Depending upon what school of magic or cult they belong to, the Adept may use one of a number of different energy types. Necromancers and Death cultists use Negative Energy, Fire Adepts and Pyromancers use Fire, and so on. Each Adept has an elemental attack which does one kind of energy damage chosen when the Adept is created. It does a d8 of damage to a single target within Medium range and allows a Saving Throw of the target’s choice to halve the damage. The Save DC is either Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma based depending upon what the precepts of the group happen to be. This is a spell-like ability, but it has Somatic and Verbal Components anyway (no Arcane Spell Failure though). Energy types are chosen from the following list (though nothing prevents unique cults from having Adepts which use more obscure energy types):
Negative Energy
Fire
Electricity
Acid
Cold
Force
Dangerous Magic: 2nd level Adepts have magic that causes a dangerous side effects on those who fail their save against the effect and take at least one point of damage. The effects are based on what kind of magic is being used:
Negative Energy: Targets who fail their save are frightened for one round.
Fire: Targets who fail their save are on fire until they are put out.
Electricity: Targets who fail their save are stunned for one round.
Acid: Targets who fail their save will take damage again next turn (save for half), and will continue to take damage every round until they make a save or they are washed off with alcohol.
Cold: Targets who fail their save are slowed for 10 rounds.
Force: Targets who fail their save are pushed back a number of 5’ squares equal to the bonus damage the Adept has from lost feats, minus one square for every size category the target is larger than Medium.
Versatile Magic: 3rd level Adepts can use their choice of two different energy types, which are still both selected when the Adept is created (the original and the extra energy type).
Defensive Magic: 4th level Adepts use magic defensively somehow. All allies within 10’ of a 4th level Adept have a +2 Resistance Bonus to Saving Throws and a +2 Deflection bonus to AC.
Specific Magic: 5th level Adepts no longer allow their target to select the Saving Throw type they make against their Magic. The Adept selects one save type (Fort, Reflex, or Will), and all targets must make that saving throw type against their Elemental Attacks regardless of whether that’s a good thing for them or not.
Trading Out Adept Levels: Adept levels aren’t capable of doing anything good. If for some reason an Adept became a named character, he becomes a member of a real character class. That is, simply trade levels of Adept for levels in a real class that has a casting or spell-like abililty progression.
“Guards! Get them!”
The worlds of D&D have a multitude of powerful champions who slay dragons with their swords and break necromancers over their knees. But while these characters are often the primary focus of the D&D game, the fact remains that the way of the sword is traveled quite frequently by orcs and elves alike, and the vast majority of those who do so are not actually capable of performing such awesome displays of martial prowess. These are the Warriors – the people who wield weapons in a manner that is entirely unlikely to get their names told in lasting song and story.
Warriors in the Game: Warriors aren’t playable as PCs. They lack the depth and tactical versatility to be an interesting character and they are not powerful enough to pull their weight in any real adventuring setup. They have a CR equal to half their Warrior level and don’t get multiclassed with real classes at all. In order to keep this from being potentially unbalanced, we strongly suggest that warriors show up in groups. So while a 4th level Warrior is nominally a CR 2 opponent, he’s not really a good challenge for a 2nd level party. But 2 of them are an appropriate challenge for a 4th level party. And that’s really what the Warrior is for – showing up in groups and getting smacked around anyway.
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: TheWarrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
1st +1 +0 +0 +2 Replacable
2nd +2 +0 +0 +3 Signature Weaponry
3rd +3 +1 +1 +3 Loyal to Death
4th +4 +1 +1 +4 Rank
5th +5 +1 +1 +4 Unshakable Morale
All of the following are Class Features of the Warrior class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Warrior is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as Light and Medium Armor and Shields. In addition, a Warrior is proficient with either Heavy Armor or an Exotic Weapon.
Replaceable: Warriors represent the faceless hordes of grunts, guards, and mooks. They are intended to be easy to use, and very easy to replace. Instead of worrying about the feats that a Warrior has, simply give Warriors +1 to-hit for each feat they would be eligible for.
Signature Weaponry: 2nd level warriors are proficient with all racial and cultural weapons and armor of their people. For example, 2nd level Dwarven Warriors are proficient with the Dwarven Waraxe and Stone Plate armor, while 2nd level Elven Warriors are proficient with Elven Thinblades and Darkleaf Armor.
Loyal to Death: 3rd level Warriors will fight to the death and remain conscious when below 0 hit points (they are still staggered as normal).
Rank: 4th level Warriors are qualified to lead troops, and have a Command Rating equivalent to being a Sergeant.
Unshakable Morale: 5th level Warriors never have to make Morale checks and receive a +2 bonus on saves vs. Fear.
Trading Out Warrior Levels: Warrior levels aren’t capable of doing anything good. If for some reason a Warrior became a named character, he becomes a member of a real character class. That is, simply trade levels of Warrior for levels in a real class that has a full BAB progression.
I like basing HP on the HD still for Minion class monsters...
example d8
1.5 Hp/HD for Minions
4.5 Hp/HD for Thugs
6 Hp/HD for Lts
Max Hp/HD for BBEGs.
it works within the rules, keeps the threat levels up but keep the combats a bit shorter, uses up less resources, and makes the pace of the game much quicker. I remember when I was doing a beta playtest, instead of increasing the numbers of weaker mobs for the playtest I instead gave them max HP...turned into an unfun slugfest, while the beginning started out with described actions, by the end, it was "I attack with my longsword"...I learned my lesson on that one.
XP must be adjusted though due to the ease with which they fall.
Minions: 50% xp
Average Thugs: 100%
Lts: 125%
BBEGs: 150%
I use HP stacks for groups of minions.
Rather than having minions with 1 hp, I take all the HP into one big pool. Every time the PCs deal enough damage to kill a minion one drops.
Means I don't have to keep track of individual minions just a "Minion HP".
For example - The party is attacked by a group of 10 Goblins.
I just write: "Minions 60 hp"
Then as damage stacks whenever it clicks over to 6 hp a goblin drops.
(Fighter does 5 damage, followed by the Rogue doing 3 and the Bard doing 4. Goblin drops on Rogue's and Bard's turns, and the Minions have take 12/60 hp).
That's an interesting system...nice.
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HP is already an abstraction you do realize :p
And yes, you can easily have both in 3.5. Watch. First, I have the players fight against some low level monsters in an eeevil shrine. Then when they go in deeper, the priest sees them and sends his follower minions to mob them.
I just did the inmpossible.
Also, they don't have "1 HP," they have "one hit." It's a small wording difference but a pretty sizable overall difference.
As to answer why: Because it provides those easy crushed minions much lke the low level monsters, but by artificially inflating their attack it makes them a threat. With low level monsters you can easily run into the problem where only a natural 20 will hit.
This is exactly what I do.
Most mooks have one hit, maybe 2. They all either take fireballs/lightning bolts to the chin or evade, every time.
I DO love to throw huge swarms of monsters at my PC's though, whether gobbo's, zombies, robots, or what have you. It's even better when they're all rogues.... :)
most low level mooks get the advanced simple template all the time, but i rarely track actual HP.
I like basing HP on the HD still for Minion class monsters...
example d81.5 Hp/HD for Minions
4.5 Hp/HD for Thugs
6 Hp/HD for Lts
Max Hp/HD for BBEGs.it works within the rules, keeps the threat levels up but keep the combats a bit shorter, uses up less resources, and makes the pace of the game much quicker. I remember when I was doing a beta playtest, instead of increasing the numbers of weaker mobs for the playtest I instead gave them max HP...turned into an unfun slugfest, while the beginning started out with described actions, by the end, it was "I attack with my longsword"...I learned my lesson on that one.
XP must be adjusted though due to the ease with which they fall.
Minions: 50% xp
Average Thugs: 100%
Lts: 125%
BBEGs: 150%
But why, if the Commoners have 2.5 Hp/HD, why is the BBEG using Minions with only 1.5 Hp/HD? Why doesn't he employ Commoners? And why don't the Minions go into something a little bit safer than being killed by PCs?
But why, if the Commoners have 2.5 Hp/HD, why is the BBEG using Minions with only 1.5 Hp/HD? Why doesn't he employ Commoners? And why don't the Minions go into something a little bit safer than being killed by PCs?
You are thinking of a world, a simulation, with it's own internal logic provided by rules that apply to pc and npc. Classic 3E anotherwards. Minions are about a cinematic approach. Kind of the Hollywood version of RPGs. No background logic / place, but they "look good" and fulfill a roll in the adventure (just not the world). Personally I prefer a simulation, but to each their own.
I'd like to discuss what everyone's feelings are regarding 1-hp minions such as we see in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3E or D&D 4e.
[...]
What are your thoughts for adding them to Pathfinder?
In order: They're crap, and no.
You asked.
No need to change the enemies the players face, just give the PC the following option, originally from 2E Combat and Tactics:
Heroic Frays The most heroic and inspirational stories of battle are about the stand of the few against the many. The legend of Roland holding the pass of Roncesvalles, or Davy Crockett at the Alamo, or Tolkien’s tale of the Fellowship standing against the orcs of Moria in Balin’s tomb—these stories live forever in the imaginations of people everywhere.
In a heroic fray, the PCs are fighting against hordes of individually weak monsters such as goblins, kobolds, or giant rats. Warriors facing adversaries far less skillful than themselves can double their normal rate of attack. This only applies to their primary weapon; if the character is fighting with a weapon in each hand, the secondary weapon still adds only one additional attack per round. Any attacks of opportunity the heroic warrior receives must be counted off against these additional attacks, however.
In addition, warriors gain one extra attack per round which may be used to perform a shield-punch, shield-rush, unarmed punch or kick, or grab maneuver against any opponent that they threaten when they begin resolving their attacks for the round. The normal penalties for these attacks don’t apply, so the shield maneuvers don’t cost the warrior his AC bonus, and the unarmed maneuvers don’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
Characters can only engage in a heroic fray against creatures of 1 Hit Dice or less, or creatures whose Hit Dice or levels are 10 less than the hero’s. A 12th-level fighter can declare a heroic fray against monsters of up to 2 HD, a 13th-level fighter can stand against 3-HD monsters, and so on.
The other requirement of a heroic fray is numbers. The hero’s side must be outnumbered by the enemy for the warrior to gain his extra attacks. If there are fewer monsters left than attacks available, the excess attacks are lost.