Since there has been so much skepticism here and elsewhere about whether or not a sor 1/brd 3 could be useful, I thought I'd post some notes from tonight's combat against a gang of Duergar.
Before the battle began, Nora had cast mage armor and unseen servant.
Round 1: Nora fires with her heavy crossbow, killing one duergar
Round 2: Nora attacks a duergar with her longspear, but misses.
Round 3: Nora begins bardic music. Note: I could have started bardic music earlier. Getting the first shot in in Round 1, she still could have started in Round 2 and then started stabbing things in Round 3.
Round 4: A duergar wizard appeared in round 3 and blasted a lot of the cleric's HP. Nora's unseen servant had by this time rewound her heavy crossbow, so she took it and shot the wizard. Unfortunately, she ended up doing light damage. Note to self: it probably would have been better for her to have [u]readied[/u] an action so as to interrupt the wizard's next spell.
Round 5: Nora uses acrobatics and mobility to move past the melee and get in range to cast dolorous sadness at the wizard. The wizard falls prone and starts to cry. ([u]Dolorous sadness[/u] has exactly the same game effect as [u]hideous laughter[/u], but evokes crying instead of laughing. It's just a flavor thing.)
Round 6: Nora cast Acid Ray at the wizard. The wizard made his saving throw and ended the dolorous sadness effect, but still didn't get to do anything else this round.
Round 7: Five new duergar charge in, almost killing the halfling. (He is down to 2 hp.) Nora instructs her unseen servant to take out her healing potion, as she casts acid ray at one of the incoming duergar. Note to self: should have concentrated on the wizard.
Round 8: Nora threatens the wizard with her longspear and a readied action. She misses though when the wizard moves back to cast a scorching ray at one of the other party members.
Round 9: Nora casts dolorous sadness at the wizard again, and he falls down and cries.
Round 10: While the wizard is prone, Nora cast grease on the square that he occupies. Meanwhile, the paladin had come over and both he and Nora were threatening him with their weapons. The wizard tried to attack the paladin, and the two AoAs that he took killed him.
Round 11: By this time, the duergar that had been threatening the halfling had been killed by him and the dwarf. There is only one duergar left, who is locked in battle vs the cleric. Nora stabs him with her longspear, killing him.
Since the halfling hadn't needed it and the clerics and paladins still had plenty of healing left, Nora asked her unseen servant to bring back her bottle of healing potion.
I'll agree that a 4th level sorceror would have more arithmetic power, but it seems you're plenty useful where you're at.
I love the unseen servant shenanigans. I love it so much. I'm alight with ideas now.
I like it, excellent use of the Unseen Servant (gonna yoink that one if you don;t mind :)), and of the characters mobility and reach. Not sure I would have gone multi-class, but it seems you are having fun, so well done :)
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THIS. again, THIS.
Not quite sure why everyone has a hard-on for being "UBER!!!1111one!" but this is a well made, well thought out character, who does unique things (several have mentioned the unseen servant shenanigans, bravo!) and has unique combat things with the spear and the mobility. I imagine Lunge will be a feat in the future :).
Its about having fun. Its about doing things differently. Its about using spells creatively to get around obstacles and challenges.
I applaud you, Utgardloki.
As a 4th level sorcerer, I would have lost out on 12 skill points, plus the Versatile Performance which provides the equivalent of another 6 skill points for Bluff and Disguise, and another skill point in every Knowledge field. I wouldn't have been able to help everybody else clear duergar out (that may have made a difference with them surrounding a guy with only 2 hp left), plus I have six 1st level spells to choose from, including Expeditious Retreat and Feather Fall. Plus I can Fascinate, Distract, or Countersong if I need to, and I can Inspire Competence.
As a 4th level sorcerer I'd have five spells plus Burning Hands. Only one of them would be 2nd level, and if I had wanted Dolorous Sadness that would have to be it.
In 3.5, the Bard would be ahead on hit points, which doesn't happen in Pathfinder. A 4th level Sorcerer would have saving throws +1 +1 +4, while my character gets +1 +3 +5. On the other hand, the way Pathfinder works, having 10 cantrips on hand is a big advantage over only have 6 of them on hand.
So a 4th level sorcerer could probably cast Mage Armor, Unseen Servant, Grease, and Dolorous Sadness, and run around with a longspear stabbing people. But would lose out on all the other things she could do.
Mixing sorc and bard is just a studip idea. Really? cantrips? you can cast them an endless amount of times, and really how can you even come up with...
obvious troll is obvious
The OP wasn't trying to optimize his build - he was thinking outside the square for fun RPing applications. Personally, i think you can do both.
As far as cantrips go, he fired one Acidic Ray. He wasn't basing the character around it, he was using a neglected spell to achieve more than would be obvious. This, i applaud.
I'm well aware what a troll is, and insulting people is often the most effective way to provoke reactions - and not particuarly helpful.
I've been using my unseen servants to reload crossbows, flip over tables for cover, carry torches and light things on fire, and similar shenanigans for years--where have you guys been? ;P
A fey sorcerer gets a laugh ability anyways. unseen servant trick is kinda lame, and less then worthwhile. I wouldnt allow it in a companion of mine because it takes some sort of effort to hand back and forth an item. also considering that you could simply use a light crossbow and fire it once a round anyways. Grease isn't a super effective spell in the first place, and your use was pretty pointless in your example anyways. So instead of wasting 3 spells, you could use entangle(free lvl 3 fey spell) burning hands and shocking grasp, a lvl utility spell, and a 2nd level utility or offensive ability.Mixing sorc and bard is just a studip idea. Really? cantrips? you can cast them an endless amount of times, and really how can you even come up with...
Except my character is not fey, she's elemental. And fey sorcerers don't get Hideous Laughter until 5th level. And I don't think Entangle would work in the mines because there is no vegetation to entangle anybody with. And I suppose I could have used Grease more effectively. And don't forget how important Mage Armor is for an arcane caster who is getting into melee combat.
Certainly you can imagine a sorcerer built for this particular occasion, but I don't know what the future holds. My character has a number of abilities that were not used in this particular combat, but might be needed in future encounters. She's used Grease before in encounters -- one time it probably saved the halfling's life. Expeditious Retreat has come in handy. Feather Fall would have been useful if she had had it when she needed it. She hasn't had to Bluff or Disguise anybody yet, but if she does, she's ready. Combining Bluff with Ghost Sound could be useful some day.
A sorcerer vs a wizard would be a case of force vs force, and unless the sorcerer is built as a battle mage, a wizard who is a "monster" has the advantage because his spells can be selected specifically for the task of bringing the PC party down. (Of course, if it is the wizard who is the PC, then it is the sorcerer "monster" who has the advantage.)
I've been using my unseen servants to reload crossbows, flip over tables for cover, carry torches and light things on fire, and similar shenanigans for years--where have you guys been? ;P
I've never had a spellcaster with an Unseen Servant spell handy before.
My last sorceress didn't take that spell. My wizards could have used it though, I guess.
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Sadly, these type of conversations always bring "flames", usually not through any malice of the posters, but because of the disparity between game and player styles. The type of character that works well in a political thriller type of game likely looks nothing like a character optimized for tactical combat.
A Sorc/Bard multiclass, is likely going to struggle to have the combat potency of any pure-class build in a purely damage-dealing environment. That's not an insult to the OP's build, just a fact of the game system.
As for general advice to the OP on how to optimize their combat performance when it is needed, I would offer the following basic suggestions:
• Take a look at TreantMonk's Bard guide. You could likely adapt the archer bard build he suggests to utilize Sorc damage spells in place of arrows.
• Try to get ahold of a whip, you're proficient with it, and the battlefield control of it's rip attacks syncs nicely with your likely role in combat. If you can afford the feats to get Dazzling Display for the whip, even better.
• With Disguise Self from the Bard list, high CHA from the build in general, and a few "get out of jail free" spells from the Sorc list, you make a pretty potent scout/infiltrator. Throw in Glibness and you can get away with all kinds of things.
• Depending on how much you want to focus on your song's abilities, it might be worth asking your GM about a hybrid caster PrC, ala Mystic Theurge or Ultimate Magus, retooled to support 2 spon arcane casters.
This is more of an accomplishment thread than a what do I do now thread. My plan is to get up to 4th level Bard to get 2nd level Bard spells, then start working up the sorcerer spell levels. I have been looking at PrCs to allow caster progression; something like the Virtuoso is appealing to allow developing bard-like abilities and sorcerer spell progression.
I think my character is the best in the party at a number of things. She has the highest Perception, able to make decent DCs even with the worst die rolls. She has the highest Survival rating. She is the best at Bluff. She has the most mobility. Her spells don't pack as much punch as the Cleric's spells do, but she has the utility spells handy. She can't match the Paladin or Dwarf for damage, but she can be effective.
The one glaring weakness is that she is not very effective at a range beyond about 30 feet.
Nice writeup, quite inspiring.
On to the topic, I fully agree that a Bard1/Sorc3 is a nice char to play and I also think that the advantages nicely balance the disadvantages.
However, a Bard4/Sorc4 is a horrible character compared to a Bard1/Sorc7 and no amount of "versatility" is going to offset this...
Utgardloki, nice. Sounds like you've got a decent character going there and are having fun with her. I look forward to hearing more of her exploits. Good luck.
Nice writeup, quite inspiring.
On to the topic, I fully agree that a Bard1/Sorc3 is a nice char to play and I also think that the advantages nicely balance the disadvantages.
However, a Bard4/Sorc4 is a horrible character compared to a Bard1/Sorc7 and no amount of "versatility" is going to offset this...
I kind have to agree with this, UNLESS you are willing to just be the "neat tricks" guy, which is totally fine with me. I'm tired of over optimized munchkin characters, let's do something whacky :)
The old solution for this was to get back into a prestige class that would even things back out.
I'd recommend the 3.0 Virtuoso, or 3.5 Sublime Chord. Both will give you a strong bard/sorceror around 11th level.
Otherwise, continuing to multiclass evenly will cause problems.
Dipping a level of bard for a sorceror, though? It' a tradeoff, and a good one in the right campaign.
It seems a fun character, though I have to agree without some kind of Prc or GM intervention it will not live up to a pure class character in any way in the long run. Personally I'd be inclined to work with the player to make it a viable multi-class in the long term that roughly measures up to the rest of the party.
Maybe create a Prc, something like a Song Mage.
- stack / enhance bardic music
- allow sorcerer progression with the option to pick bard spells as spells known
- able to cast both sorcerer and bard spells in light armor
- every spell needs a verbal component
- allow caster levels to stack (this is actually a houserule)
I'd had intended it to be accesible for a 4th lvl bard, 1st lvl sorcerer originally and in my campaign it was a feat rather than Prc, allowing a PC to progress as sorcerer but allowing for some nice bard abilities.
I made a fun npc bard 4 sorcerer 12 using this feat even though it still was fairly weak it had a nice mix of abilities and alot of low level spells from both bard and sorcerer cast at lvl 16, missing out on the magical might of a pure sorcerer but had the same magic available to her as a single class bard.
arguably way too much for a feat, it was more of a fix for a nice character concept.
Beyond that...worth asking your dm about this.
He'll say no of course, but he can't blame you for asking.
I'd allow it. I'm used to high-power games though, DMs that aren't might be more wary.
I don't know if I will ever take another level of sorcerer for this character. I am looking at the Prestige Classes. Virtuoso, Sublime Chord, Fochlian Lyrist, and Seeker of the Song look like promising avenues.
I'm also considering dipping into more combat-oriented classes like Rogue and Duelist. This wouldn't necessarily be contradictory to the sorcerer-advancing PrCs, although they'd further limit advancement of arcane spellcasting. But with Spring Attack, the ability to do sneak attacks would be nice. And Haste and Expeditious Retreat would make things even better.
I've told the DM that my next level will be a druid, with a cougar animal companion. (I figure this way he can work it into the narrative if he wants to.) More spells, including Cure Light Wounds (which I didn't want to use one of my precious spells known slots for), the ability to summon animals, and skills and abilities for wilderness adventures.
One thing to consider: a person may have all kinds of neat spells and scrolls and stuff, be each one takes time to cast. Being armed with an array of useful spells can free up a primary spellcaster to blast the enemies away with scorching rays and lightning blasts and what not, while they and their minions get entangled, greased, and otherwise harassed. That leaves the cleric free to drop a Flame Strike on the enemy's head.
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I'd rather have a player that can effectively think outside the box, surprise both the GM and other players with unique and different play styles that can be utilized far better than can "I'm Mr. Optimized Sorc/Bard/Rogue/PrC and can do a trazillion points of damage per turn!"
I'd rather an effective mediocre character played to its max than some ubered out same-old-same-old munchkin played poorly.
This thread showed how an unusual class played with ingenuity and forethought held its own. A smart player will make even a straight 10 attribute farmer with a hoe work right.
Who honestly cares if by lvl 15 this combo is going to be lame, in your opinion? If Utgard can make it work, and so far he has, then its win, pure and simple.
Again, well done.
I once inflicted a gnome ranger/bard/mystic theurge on a DM running a 'bring your uber-ist 20th level characters. XXX GP, <list of splatbooks>.
I was the only character that survived.
I don't know if I will ever take another level of sorcerer for this character.
That's probably a wise idea - single level dips are *awesome* for flavor and versatility, without sacrificing much strength. A SorX/Clr1 in my last campaign used that very well.
Outrider11us: Are you using Magic Rating? I'd highly suggest it as a well-balanced way to encourage this kind of creativity.
AdAstra: You're my hero <3
Interesting, I am doing something similar to Magic Rating.
I add 1 caster level for every spell casting class (including paladins and rangers and any Prc adding half or more to casting advancement) and half that for any other class.
I was assuming to do the same with monster type creatures.
Outsiders and fey 1 caster level per HD, most others half unless they have spellcasting abilities at a higher lvl than that up to a max of their HD I assume.
I havent run into any problems as of yet, but I will check the Magic Rating to see if I forgot about anything that might become a problem later.
The Magic Rating system might have to be changed a little for rangers and paladins in pathfinder, since it now grants caster level -3 instead, I conidered it not worthwhile to make for extra complication and just gave them full caster level.