I'm going to run a campaign, but I'm restricting certain spell casters. Such as no clerics or wizards and sorcerers "I'm still not sure about Druid since everyone has told me they have been toned down for pathfinder. I might just restrict him to using ONLY player handbook spells."
What I have instead allowed are limited/themed casters, such as beguilers (PHB II) and warmages (Complete Arcane).
The idea, such as with beguilers and warmages. A warmages a a specified caster, mostly blaster caster, battlefield controller, and a beguiler is more mind manipulation and illusionist tricks caster.
A few questions, out of this list, which ones do you think might still be a tad too castery "Meaning over diverse."
The list goes.
Alchemist (Beta version)
Bard
Battle Sorcerer(A variant on sorcerer and they are VERY limited)
Beguiler
Duskblade (you can't choose between being an arcane spellcaster who zaps your enemies with powerful spells and a nimble, powerful front-line melee character who lays them low with a sword)
Favored Soul (Debating on including)(My issue with the sorcerer is also an issue with favored soul)
Inquistor (Beta)
Shugenja (From my experience, they are pretty limited)
Spirit shaman (A good substitute for druid perhaps?)
Shamen (Pretty limited in spell selections)
Summoner
Warlock (I actually don't know how they work.)
Warmage
Wujen (rather close to a Wizard.)
I'm also wondering if Witch and Oracle are "limited" and "themed enough", maybe they can be good options too.
So out of those, what would you consider to be good "limited" "themed" if we where to use Warmage and Beguiler as the foundation.
My idea is that no one in this world, is a "Wizard" since "wizards" know about "everything"(No real limit on spells). A "Wizard" that studied illusions spells becomes a beguiler, and "wizards" who study how to make bigger fireballs become warmages.
Any more idea or suggestion would be nice.
My second question, since I'm going to be using pathfinder, should, and if so, how should I power up these casters?
The battle sorcerer variant is effectively a sorcerer except he knows far less spells (He knows a grand total of 16 spells between levels 1 - 9 by level 20, and the bulk of them are level 1-5), but he will still be receiving his bloodlines as well as his increase hitdice (d8) and increase base attack (+15 at level 20). "Which makes some of them actually useful if you ask me. Who gives a sorcerer power attack :p". So what do you think I should do, with some of the other classes?
I was thinking giving a bloodline to warmage, or increasing their base attack to 3/4 HD. As well as give Beguilers maybe an "extra school" or a "Blood line" as well.
Suggestions?
All marshal classes are also allowed. Classes like Paladin and ranger, that get spells will remain unchanged.
Well the witch and oracle are just about as versatile a wizard or cleric. I dont think you want to go with those. Same goes for the favored soul.
You may want to use the dread necromancer from 3.5 as well as that is just as 'themed'/'limited' as a beguiler or warmage. You may also want to look at the supergenius deathmage or Archon
These are right out of the box pathfinder compatable 'limited'/'themed' casters.
Those seem right up your alley.
In terms of how to 'power up' the classes, i dont think many of them need powering up. But for the specialist casters i would give them the wizard school powers for their specialty. So the warmage, get the evoker powers (basically i would give it int+1/2 level for edge instead of just int) and the 1st and 8th level ability of the evoker. Likewise i would give the dread necromancer the necro wizards school powers and the beguiler either the illusionist or enchanter school powers. The presumption being that these classes were reasonably balanced or at least not stronger then the 3.5 wizard, so they should get what it got as a bonus from 3.5 to pathfinder.
The summoner, alchemist, bard, and inquisitor should also work, as they are again not completely caster focused and have restricted spell lists.
Well the witch and oracle are just about as versatile a wizard or cleric. I dont think you want to go with those. Same goes for the favored soul.
You may want to use the dread necromancer from 3.5 as well as that is just as 'themed'/'limited' as a beguiler or warmage. You may also want to look at the supergenius deathmage or Archon
These are right out of the box pathfinder compatable 'limited'/'themed' casters.Those seem right up your alley.
In terms of how to 'power up' the classes, i dont think many of them need powering up. But for the specialist casters i would give them the wizard school powers for their specialty. So the warmage, get the evoker powers (basically i would give it int+1/2 level for edge instead of just int) and the 1st and 8th level ability of the evoker. Likewise i would give the dread necromancer the necro wizards school powers and the beguiler either the illusionist or enchanter school powers. The presumption being that these classes were reasonably balanced or at least not stronger then the 3.5 wizard, so they should get what it got as a bonus from 3.5 to pathfinder.
The summoner, alchemist, bard, and inquisitor should also work, as they are again not completely caster focused and have restricted spell lists.
Ah, thanks, I think I will. have to look up this nercomancer class. Also, I think I will remove Wu jen, as I overlook their class, they still seem to versatile. That's a nice idea for warmage, I was also thinking of giving beguiler access to rogue talents every 4 or 5 levels.
Ah, thanks, I think I will. have to look up this nercomancer class. Also, I think I will remove Wu jen, as I overlook their class, they still seem to versatile. That's a nice idea for warmage, I was also thinking of giving beguiler access to rogue talents every 4 or 5 levels.
There are quite a few re-imaginings/conversions for the warmage, you should search the forums. You might find one you like. I dont think the beguiler needs as big a bump as rogue talents are. They are already a really good class.
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The Warmage (evocation), Beguiler (enchantment/illusion) and Dread Necromancer (necromancy) are the most common of these, being 'more specialist than specialist.' The Summoner adds a conjuration-based specialist core class as well.
A divination based 'seer' or 'oracle' class, or a shifting-based transmutation specific caster could be neat (a core class that sacrifices non-transmutation spellcasting for Master of Many Forms / Warshaper like abilities).
Making a core class version of the Abjurant Champion / Initiate of the Seven Veils could be an interesting abjuration variant on the theme.
Personally, as a player, I tend to have difficulties with "Follow the character creation rules that only exist in my head". I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but you will really help your cause a LOT if you specify exactly what you want, and what you're avoiding. Otherwise, prepare yourself for quite a lot of "What about X?" conversations. This could be frustrating for everyone.
You could alternatively go with something like wizard* or cleric* and see what your players can come up with.
* spells need to focus around a well-defined theme, in writing, or will automatically be vetoed. You may not use scrolls, or any other method to bypass this restriction, and if you try, you lose your spellcasting focus for the rest of the day.
So, I could have a wizard who is cold-focused, and can make the floor icy (grease) or freeze things so they are easy to break (shatter), but it would be difficult to come up with a rationale for flying magic.
Who knows, maybe one of your players will make a witch with profession baker and the master craftsman feat. "Run, Run, as fast as you can, you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man" For extra fun, grab craft construct, and work out stats for a dough golem.
Personally, as a player, I tend to have difficulties with "Follow the character creation rules that only exist in my head". I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but you will really help your cause a LOT if you specify exactly what you want, and what you're avoiding. Otherwise, prepare yourself for quite a lot of "What about X?" conversations. This could be frustrating for everyone.
You could alternatively go with something like wizard* or cleric* and see what your players can come up with.
* spells need to focus around a well-defined theme, in writing, or will automatically be vetoed. You may not use scrolls, or any other method to bypass this restriction, and if you try, you lose your spellcasting focus for the rest of the day.
So, I could have a wizard who is cold-focused, and can make the floor icy (grease) or freeze things so they are easy to break (shatter), but it would be difficult to come up with a rationale for flying magic.
Who knows, maybe one of your players will make a witch with profession baker and the master craftsman feat. "Run, Run, as fast as you can, you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man" For extra fun, grab craft construct, and work out stats for a dough golem.
If you are going to restrict a spell caster's list you need to give them something back for it. A wizard with a highly specialized spell list is very, very weak. Their strength is their versatility. All of the specialized classes give back in the way of class features to make up for the highly localized spell list. If you dont do that you have underpowered characters.
Personally, as a player, I tend to have difficulties with "Follow the character creation rules that only exist in my head". I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but you will really help your cause a LOT if you specify exactly what you want, and what you're avoiding. Otherwise, prepare yourself for quite a lot of "What about X?" conversations. This could be frustrating for everyone.
You could alternatively go with something like wizard* or cleric* and see what your players can come up with.
* spells need to focus around a well-defined theme, in writing, or will automatically be vetoed. You may not use scrolls, or any other method to bypass this restriction, and if you try, you lose your spellcasting focus for the rest of the day.
So, I could have a wizard who is cold-focused, and can make the floor icy (grease) or freeze things so they are easy to break (shatter), but it would be difficult to come up with a rationale for flying magic.
Who knows, maybe one of your players will make a witch with profession baker and the master craftsman feat. "Run, Run, as fast as you can, you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man" For extra fun, grab craft construct, and work out stats for a dough golem.
Effectively, I'm trying to avoid the super MacGyver wizard. "I say super because some wizard players can go far beyond just being versatile." For example, I completely expect a beguiler to charm certain npcs and may even want them to do so. I completely except a warmage to disintegrate ray the dungeon walls. That is what they "do", that is their "focus". At the same time I don't want to "nerf" any class, by which I mean make them mechanically weaker. A beguiler for example, was consider to be an "equal" base class to a wizards. It seems like a much better alternative then to tell wizard players that they are not allowed to cast this school of spells, and they get x less spells per day.
and yes, I actually had a cleric player pull spells from over 10 books for his character.
As far as character creation goes, I know non of my players will even attempt a theme like that, but if they did, I would certainly try to figure something out like that.
In addition, another issue I always run into is that after level 11 "and sometimes as early as 6", most marshal characters start losing their flair. Why do we need this fighter when I can cast 4 ancient rock elementals. Not always a case of course, but in this situation, players during combat will have more specified roles.
Also, I kind of actually want to see these other classes in play.
If you are going to restrict a spell caster's list you need to give them something back for it. A wizard with a highly specialized spell list is very, very weak.
Oh, no argument there. I agree with you. But the OP seems to want this, because of the whole "Macguyver" thing. I don't think this is automatically true, but I'll try to help anyway.
Lockgo, might you be looking at the worst possible scenario? It sounds like you are starting a campaign, which means this is a problem you don't have at the moment. It's a potential problem, and good job anticipating.
That said, I think your real question is "how do I stop arcane casters from becoming overly-powerful"
1) What's the limit on casters? YOU. If you don't like a spell, don't allow it. If magic is rare, then players CAN'T buy magic items. Set the default to NO, and then come up with a list of what IS available (temple of Sarenrae sells holy water, CLW potions, and antitoxin)
2) If using 10 books is a problem, YOU HAVE TO TELL YOUR PLAYERS. Set a rule "Core + one book to start, + one book every 6 levels). If there are particular books you don't like, SAY SO.
3) Spontaneous casters, like sorcerors, spirit shamen, etc. are limited by their spell list. It doesn't matter how cool spell X would be, if you don't have it. Again, that's under your control.
4) Most traffic on the boards looks at potential match-ups. "Wow, a black tentacles spell would be awesome vs. ogre skeletons". Which assumes that the wizard in question knows black tentacles, decided to prepare it, didn't cast in the previous encounters, isn't surprised by the skeletons, can see in the dark crypt somehow, and beats them on initiative.
In a real game, wizards are less awesome than you might think.
5) And limited casters are even worse. If you're a beguiler, you can't really do anything to a mindless swarm. Or mindless undead, etc. The broader base that a sorceror or wizard could have allows at least a burning hands spell in emergencies. Likewise a warmage has trouble with SR and big brute opponents who can easily take a hit on their way to swallow the warmage whole.
But to answer your original question...
I'd avoid battle sorceror and beguiler as weak, summoner as too versatile, and spirit shamen should get a second look for that 'turn spirit' abillity. In some campaigns, they are game-breaking.
The rest are fine, but I think you could more easily get there by writing a new sorceror bloodline for 3.75, or changing the rules for specialization as a wizard.
And your problem with favored souls is the same as your problem with sorcerors, but you haven't said what that problem is. So, we can't help you.
But to answer your original question...
I'd avoid battle sorceror and beguiler as weak, summoner as too versatile, and spirit shamen should get a second look for that 'turn spirit' abillity. In some campaigns, they are game-breaking.
The rest are fine, but I think you could more easily get there by writing a new sorceror bloodline for 3.75, or changing the rules for specialization as a wizard.
And your problem with favored souls is the same as your problem with sorcerors, but you haven't said what that problem is. So, we can't help you.
The problem with the sorcerors and favorite soul is, that their class don't represent a theme. So I'm trying to get 2 criteria I suppose you could say.
One, to avoid casters from becoming too "powerful" or "versatile", and two, if there are casters, they are to present a specific theme. With beguiler and Warmage, as mentioned earlier, they are suppose to be on par with a wizard. Their class abilities represented and reflect what their class is suppose to be, as well as their spells. Beguiler being this roguish manipulative caster, gains feint bonuses and extra skill points, Warmages gaining extra damage, Druids being very nature themed.
They have the schools and bloodlines in patherfinder, but I don't know what I would add or take away to still keep them to that theme.
I could create several homebrew variations, , create a base class version, but I would rather use classes that where created by professional game designers. "Although I'm still not against it."
Another Idea I had for cleric was allow them extra domains, but make it so that they may only cast spells from those domains, and they gain more domains as they level. Not sure how that would run.
Aha. this means that one of rules could be
"If you wish to play a spontaneous spellcaster, you must choose spells that have a unifying theme, subject to DM approval"
You don't need rules, exactly, you need agreement. The best way to get agreement is to communicate "Here's what this campaign is about", and let the players go from there.
Another easy fix is to give clerics prayerbooks. They only know the spells in their prayerbook, and off you go.
You could also put a mechanical fix in, like "Spells that are outside your theme have a spell failure rate of 50%, or a caster level reduction, or can't be from your highest level of spells, or take 5 times longer to cast"
There are two classes I know of from the Legends and Lairs series by Fantasy Flight Games. From the "School of Evocation" book, there is the Devoted Evoker. Nothing but Evocation, and the book comes with more evocation spells to make a complete-looking "themed" list. There's some utility spells in there to keep them from being one-trick ponies.
The other book is the School of Illusion, which comes with the Devoted Illusionist. Again, nothing but Illusion spells, with some illusion-piercing abilities, and the book has some combat-useful spells to round out their roles.
Both books are 3.5, but may function in a Pathfinder environment with canny players.