I have been searching through the forums on bards and see that you either "love" them or "hate" them. I love them, but I am wondering what all the "haters" would like to see happen to the bard. What extra powers would you give him or what would you change about him?
Give them two skils points extra and rogue tricks at even levels. Then it is a good class.
none i would play because i dont like the all round in a bard. But i completely understand why people like the bard. only it is a underpowerd classs
I will never understand why it was taken away from them, as it suits their theme perfectly, but Song of Freedom was taken away from them. So I gave it back to them at the same level. They didn't even have it on their spell list! That's such a perfectly thematic spell or ability to give them, why Paizo took it away is beyond me.
Other than that, I'd say I am having difficulty still accepting the "Rounds per Day" bardic music stuff. I prefer it was kept as a Daily Usage, because I tend to run combats that last for several rounds or more and I'd hate for the bard to run out of bardic music during his first two encounters when they end up running into five or more. At least with the Daily Usages you received more bang when a combat lasted over 10 rounds.
Also, this tends to drive me insane when it comes to Bardic Music feats. Those feats were based off of using up a number of Bardic Music daily uses. How I can translate that into the Rounds/Day isn't an easy task. Especially the ones that require using two daily uses of bardic music, I guess translate that into 2 rounds worth of music? I dunno, but I wish that was playtested more before it became final, I don't think Bards were playtested much.
As a musician, I hate bardic music. I feel if those powers exist, they should be more akin to actual musicianship instead of the weird abstract thing they are now. As a class ability, it seems really poncey and idealized.
My recommendations for "fixing" bardic music are the same as they were for the beta:
Anyway, I think a lot of these ideas could be salvaged into findable "bardsongs" or something, but the current bard mechanically and stylistically fails to capture me.
My only real complaint with PF Bard is the per-round thing. Change it back to the previous normal bardsong.
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One irritating thing about bards, and this is irrespective of edition, is that every time one is pictured, or made into a figure, they have a lute, or a harp, or some other totally impractical instrument in one or both hands. Yet no-one, except maybe the odd naive, new player, ever uses one.
Given the choice of being effectively unarmed, unable to take advantage of AoO, and risking 100s of gp of equipment being sundered/disarmed at will, losing your concentration and focus, just so you can perform one action all encounter (inspire), or
taking 'Voice' as your chosen focus, and being able to run, jump, climb and fight, while also inspiring your party.
It's a complete no-brainer choice, and unless you give some actual mechanical reasons for using an instrument as accompaniment, you should just cut the crap, and accept that no-one is going to use one, except in a deliberate attempt to cripple their PC, through a misguided belief in the Stormwind Fallacy (ie; that intentional bad choices somehow prove your PC is 'deep' and well-roleplayed).
Some good suggestions upthread, by Evil Lincoln; assume all the bard's combat inspiring is vocal-based (as well as evening the baseline, this makes sense; I've got far too many distractions, when faced with enemies trying to cut my head off, to be looking around for a morale boost from your interpretive dance), but bring out the instruments when you're in the safety of civilised company.
Allowing for the possibility of these extra long-lost songs to be written for a wide variety of instruments encourages the bard to be proficient in a range of styles, without forcing him to be reliant on an albatross round his neck, when in combat.
An idea to make the bard more musical, as well as grant a benefit for using those damn instruments
Bard music and ability is assumed to be base-lined with vocal activity (their spells always have vocal..)
Instruments add extra oomph! Use of a 2-handed instrument allows the bard to continue playing w/out using up additional R/day, up to his level in extra rounds.
Instruments have extra bard abilities that require proficency in them to use. each costing 1-3 R of daily use to trigger it, lasting rank rounds
Drums allow the bard w/ 3+ ranks to cause unease in the enemies, with a radius of 5' per rank in the skill.
Drums with 8+ ranks can cause fear in a single target with 5'/rank rng
Flute with 5+ ranks causes a single target within 5'/rank rng to enter a reverie, unaware of times passage or events unless harmed
Mandolin that 5+ ranks causes a single target w/rng as above, to become staggared as he fights his bodies urge to dance - or he can take full round action but suffers a -2 to all rolls and dances a bit as he takes his actions.
...and so on.
I'd make it a perform check to use each ability, not just a rank minimum - perhaps w/ a fumble/critical possible (fumble wastes d3 R of use, a critical allows an additional target, an increase in bonus/penalty/what have you).
One thought is to make the more cumbersome instruments (keyboard, anyone?), grant greater powers. If a PC actually hauls out a full sized harp and plays it, it should do something… right? Perhaps the smaller instruments cost more R/day usage then larger ones? A full sized keyboard, harp, cello, and such cost nothing to use, while a violin takes of 2 uses/day, and a small flute 3 uses? I’m not sure, I’m just ‘spitballing’ here.
But . . . there actually are cultures that, historically, did sing in combat. Maybe it helped that our last bard was an Ulfen that would recite epic poems about heroes dismembering monsters to boost our morale. Made perfect sense to me.
I would mind the instruments much less if it wasn't always a hard or lute or mandolin.
Those be wussy instruments!
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As a musician, I hate bardic music. I feel if those powers exist, they should be more akin to actual musicianship instead of the weird abstract thing they are now. As a class ability, it seems really poncey and idealized.
My recommendations for "fixing" bardic music are the same as they were for the beta:
Bard songs should be powerful, unique spells that must be "learned" as a wizard learns new spells. This would allow the bard to be a song collector, and open opportunities for cool treasure. It would also encourage the bard to play into his social role in the party, connecting on a musical level with the cultures he encounters. Abolish the perform skill. Make it a series of feats that any character can take, and that works something like the Versatile Performance class ability. Different types of perform give you different skill bonuses, let you make money, and perhaps one juicy ability. Bards get Perform feats as a class ability (like rangers fighting styles) and the large number of song-spells they can learn might require certain perform skills as a pre-req (Ork battlesong requires drums, Drow Lullaby requires Voice, etc) A very few bardic music powers should fill a combat role like the current ones, but all in all they should be roleplaying powers. Bards should really be the kings of social manipulation, able to use their powerful songs out of combat to impart long-lasting benefits, or elicit certain behaviors. The bard should be the go-to character when morale is low — certain bardic music may only grant it's effect in situations where the story attached to the power is relevant. For example, a bard could find a song of ancient legend about a badly outnumbered army coming to an unlikely victory. This would only take effect if the party were badly outnumbered. Anyway, I think a lot of these ideas could be salvaged into findable "bardsongs" or something, but the current bard mechanically and stylistically fails to capture me.
I really like these ideas and they work for me a lot in making me want to play a Bard.
As it is now, a Bard has limited utility and benefits more from very social campaigns than hack-n-slash games (no problem since I prefer social games anyway). The one thing that just doesn't connect, for me, personally, is the concept of a bard, to me is a storyteller, whether through song or verse. The idea of a Bard singing a little ditty to grant bonuses or whatever just doesn't quite do it for me. Sure they can be inspiring songs to bring about your inner bravery or whatever, but it lacks the storytelling nature. There is no Shakespeare in it to me, just the bard from Holy Grail.
Rename it to Rock Star or Diva or Lute Hero or whatever and the class could work I suppose, but it just does not feel like a storyteller to me.
Huh. This is a much more positive response than I got during the beta. Where were you all then?
Maybe I will write up an alternate bard for the PFDB, since I have a very clear idea of how to make the music less cheesy and other people seem on board with it.
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Huh. This is a much more positive response than I got during the beta. Where were you all then?
Maybe I will write up an alternate bard for the PFDB, since I have a very clear idea of how to make the music less cheesy and other people seem on board with it.
Those topics were too nasty and inflammatory for me. :) You know how I shy away from anything approaching disagreement! what????? >;)
I am all for alternate versions of classes. Love to see it. I just ask that it not inspire images of jesters in tights and hats with bells (which is what I see when I look at the current Bard class).
Seriously, you will see me only fight for two classes, Fighter and Cleric (my two faves). Anything else I just don't have the passion to go toe-to-toe on...
Those topics were too nasty and inflammatory for me. :) You know how I shy away from anything approaching disagreement! what????? >;)
I am all for alternate versions of classes. Love to see it. I just ask that it not inspire images of jesters in tights and hats with bells (which is what I see when I look at the current Bard class).
Seriously, you will see me only fight for two classes, Fighter and Cleric (my two faves). Anything else I just don't have the passion to go toe-to-toe on...
As a musician and the son of a musician, the way bardic music has been handled through multiple editions has always rankled me. I strongly feel that it could be done "right", and that the current portrayal is something of an embarrassment.
If I commit the time to writing up a proper bard for PFDB, you can expect that bardsongs will have casting times in minutes (or possibly hours for the really exceptional) and durations in hours (or days for the really long ones). Obviously, the benefits will need to change in power to accommodate this, but the "fight songs and tales of glory" should not be performed during the battle itself. However, they may retain an ability that allows them to remind their allies of the tale they have chosen, and gain momentary benefits from that, sort of like the cavalier abilities.
There are also mass-combat situations where a bard might help to control troops, and this is the case most often made for Bardic music, but it always struck me as wrong to be plucking a lute in a swordfight. There are morale bonuses in real life, and they are nothing like they are portrayed in the game.
My father's musical tradition is Irish folk, and so I am a firm proponent of the notion that music can make a warrior fight harder. I just feel the way it's been handled mechanically has been laughable. Not just in Pathfinder, but in every incarnation.
(also, regarding bells and tight pants: I have always kind of liked Eando Kline's style. I feel like making bardic music more realistic definitely reduces the silliness of the class without sacrificing the flavor. Using music to inspire people can be bad ass if it's a relevant tale sung in a time of trouble, instead of "Slay, slay, slay the vicious orcs!" )
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[/quote=ProfessorCirno]I would mind the instruments much less if it wasn't always a hard or lute or mandolin.
Those be wussy instruments!
My daughter is playing a bard in my current game and is constantly trying to convince me that if she can summon a mandolin or flute with Summon Instrument, then I should let her summon a pipe organ over top of her foes :)
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[/quote=ProfessorCirno]I would mind the instruments much less if it wasn't always a hard or lute or mandolin.
Those be wussy instruments!
My daughter is playing a bard in my current game and is constantly trying to convince me that if she can summon a mandolin or flute with Summon Instrument, then I should let her summon a pipe organ over top of her foes :)
the ONLY bard I ever played used an "electric" axe guitar... he died in the first adventure... to be fair it was a TPK and he was the last to die.
My daughter is playing a bard in my current game and is constantly trying to convince me that if she can summon a mandolin or flute with Summon Instrument, then I should let her summon a pipe organ over top of her foes :)
Oddly enough, I was requesting the same thing earlier today. It certainly seems like a worthwhile ability. :)
My bardic instrument is the kazoo. You have never seen at-the-table hilarity like Inspire Competence channeled as a bard playing "Dirty Deeds, Done Dirt Cheap" on the kazoo.
If I commit the time to writing up a proper bard for PFDB, you can expect that bardsongs will have casting times in minutes (or possibly hours for the really exceptional) and durations in hours (or days for the really long ones).
That sounds really cool and I would love to see something like that. I love Bards as a class and a concept and always am interested in being a bard, but have always found such a distaste for the image that they lean towards. It makes no sense to be strumming the lute in a fight, and I agree that it doesn't make you think morale bonus, but "lets all go beat the crap out of the guy playing the instrument, then we can get back to killing each other."
However, I have a number of bards that I have put together that are more your "warleader" type of character, but the fact that you are the "bard" just annoys me.
A lot of my thoughts on Bards in a game stem from Galliard in Werewolf the Apocalypse, I always thought they were pretty cool.
Anyway, to the OP. The stuff I love about Bards and always makes me want to play one is that they have some really cool buffs, and I like being the guy that throws out buffs and watches my friends go to town and have a good time killing things. It just makes me warm and fuzzy on the inside.
What I don't like about Bards in their current write up more than anything else is the capstone that they got. It just feels so random and poorly assigned, and reminds me of the court jester that other posters have referenced more than anything else. As the source of some of the greatest buffs in the game and the guy that is supposed to get his team through the bad times because of his strong performances to get a save or die just felt terrible. I really was looking forward to the capstone for Bards because I hoped that it would be some awesome new buff or something and was really disappointed with it.
Anyway, bed time for me.
Happy gaming.
Barator
(also, regarding bells and tight pants: I have always kind of liked Eando Kline's style. I feel like making bardic music more realistic definitely reduces the silliness of the class without sacrificing the flavor. Using music to inspire people can be bad ass if it's a relevant tale sung in a time of trouble, instead of "Slay, slay, slay the vicious orcs!" )
True. And even when its not about slaying vicious orcs (or undead, or demons), life as an adventurer is a lot more comfortable when one of the member is a bit of an entertainer.
I always considered that every character (except for the the most austere ones) each bring a few songs and bit of folklore around the campfire, but bards, with their more profound (if intuitive) understanding of psychology and human behaviour can really alter the performance of a group just by keeping the morale up. I always considered that when a bard activates its bardic music, all that time spent singing, telling stories and "taking care of his group" comes into a mechanical effects. Seriously, one need to be particularly quick and witty to grab its instrument and weave a magical song... in less than 6 seconds!
'findel
If I commit the time to writing up a proper bard for PFDB, you can expect that bardsongs will have casting times in minutes (or possibly hours for the really exceptional) and durations in hours (or days for the really long ones). Obviously, the benefits will need to change in power to accommodate this, but the "fight songs and tales of glory" should not be performed during the battle itself. However, they may retain an ability that allows them to remind their allies of the tale they have chosen, and gain momentary benefits from that, sort of like the cavalier abilities.
As a former music major and the son of a musician myself, I would be happy to help you do some of the legwork on this, Evil Abe. If you'd like to collaborate, hit me up at jeremymillzz at gmail (dot) com. I think it'd be great fun crafting different performances using all the different regions and factions in Golarion.
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I played a Bard for the first time at Gencon Oz last year and chose comedy as mt main performance. To really give the character feel I made it my aim to recite at least a Couplet or a Quatrain for each performance that was relevant to the situation the party was in. It certainly made the time before my go fly as I would frantically assemble the verse in my mind. When I cast my first Hideous laughter on a tough Gnoll that dropped him to deck in fits of laughter it felt like a real achievement. Probably the most fun I've had as a player.
Playing a bard is all about flavour. You are the diplomat, the fast talker, the encourager and inspirer. If you want to do serious damage, the class isn't for you.
What I would change is the number of spells per day. Too few!
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So many suggestions here that vary wildly. I think everyone has a different opinion of what a Bard actually is. Since 3.0, players have been urged to "Specialize" their character in something. This is relatively easy to do. If you know your Ranger is going to go the master archer route, you start loading up on Bow feats early. All of the other classes (to a certain extent) reward you for "putting your eggs in one basket" so to speak. You neglect one area of expertise for massive amounts of skill in another.
I love the Bard as a class, I have since I played one in D&D 2nd edition (pre Skills & Powers). Every time a new edition comes out, the Bard is the class I always peek at first, followed by the Cleric (but that's a whole different discussion). Bards are all about flavor, no two are alike, and how you build them reflects this.
Bards, to me, are very much a jack of all trades, master of none. They exist to buff the party, and to be able to fill in as needed for primary party roles.
They know how to swing a couple martial weapons, but no one will mistake them for a Fighter. They can cast a few healing spells, but no one will mistake them for a Cleric. They can be a little sneaky at times, but no one will mistake them for a Rogue. They have a certain amount of arcane knowledge and skill, but they certainly won't be mistaken for a Wizard.
This last point is the one that strikes home for me. As spontaneous casters, I am fine with the number of spells they know and can cast per day. They are not primarily a spell slinging class by any stretch, they are just there to "fill in."
What I would like, however, is one spell per level that is evocation based! I'm fine with Bards having limited access to certain spells, but since Bards are "all about flavor," it would be nice to be able to have one that uses Magic Missle, Flaming Sphere, etc as a warchanter.
Just my 2.5 cents.
I love the bard, but feel it could use a couple things.
While I love the new rounds mechanic for in combat, I feel it falls flat on their out of combat abilities like fascinate. I would ike to see a few more abilities like fascinate, and have abilities that should last a long time use 1 bardic performance per minute instead of per round.
For those of you who are complaining about the bard playing instruments durring combat, James has clarified that bards do not have to use perform they are profficient in to use bardic performance. (link) So unless you want to use an ability that requires an opposed roll, you can always use oratory or dance, even if you have no skill ranks in it. If you are using an opposed roll, the instrument can get you a +2
The Bard as it stands is fundamentally broken. It is a jack of all trades, master of none, but no one wants to play something that does what everyone else can do but worse. What makes sense, is if the Bard can choose what exactly he is a jack of, and focus accordingly.
While your idea is really interesting, I want to caution you about arbitrarily deciding what "everyone else wants to play." I really like the bard as the jack-of-all-trades that they are and like playing characters like that. I think your idea has a great deal of merit but humbly suggest that when presenting them, not edging out the people who might disagree with you by assuming they don't exist. :)
To OP and thread in general:
While I am a fan of the bard as it is, I think mechanically I still like to see a couple tweaks:
1. If a Bard adds a Versatile Performance that makes skill ranks they have in another skill redundant, they should be able to move those skill ranks into another skill. I think it's especially important to do this since you don't get Versatile Performance until starting at 2nd level; deciding how you divide your ranks into skills suddenly becomes quite a conundrum.
I like the *idea* of Versatile Performance, but its execution leaves a bit to be desired.
2. Add the following spells to the Bard's Spell List:
Bull's Strength (and the Mass version at 6th level)
Bear's Endurance (and the Mass version at 6th level)
Fly
Phantasmal Killer (perhaps as a 5th or 6th level spell)
The first two help enhance the Bard's role as a buffer of both himself and his allies; likewise with Fly, which also further helps the Bard be mobile which I believe is important for that kind of class. The Bard already has several transmutation spells in his spell list, and I have no problem with a few more, and I doubt, even as useful as these spells are, that they will be game breaking (and in a game where a Bard is in a party with another spellcaster, I would rather the Bard be able to cast these kind of spells and free the other spellcasters for healing/blasting/SOS).
Phantasmal Killer suits the existing flavor for the Bard, and the Bard has similar damaging illusions, like Nightmare. It's a 4th level spell for Sorcerers and Wizards, and letting the Bard access it at a level higher or so seems fair. Some people like their Bards to be able to do some damage with spells, which is hard for them to do outside of the Sonic attacks they get. This is the best spell I can think of that would fit the flavor and thought behind the rest of the Bard spell list and give it some much needed oomph.
ETA: Also, I think one of the things that harms the bard is indeed the "Bravely, brave Sir Robin" kind of minstrel image that the bards seem to have developed over the years. I love the idea of the character that inspires their combatants to war by warsong or inspiring oratory/other performance and I have no problem with a class representing this historically-inspired fantasy role. But the bard needs a good image upgrade.
As for me, I'm really hoping I can play my half-orc war drummer somewhere, someday... *sigh*
I am always amused by the critics arguing that the Bard is too weak or cannot excel in anything.
In my experience as a DM, played by a good roleplayer, a Bard can be one of the best classes in the game and a great addition to any group.
Even if in theory he cannot reach the full potential of an actual fighter, a full arcanist or a true rogue, he can still play all these roles.
And with creativity, imagination and immersion, he can even replace them at no loss.
This is why I wouldn't actually remove or add anything to the class, although I modified the class with some houserules in my campaign.
Just give the player and character some opportunities to shine, let them play their role(s).
They will provide support and inspiration to any group.
This is priceless.
I love the bard, but feel it could use a couple things.
While I love the new rounds mechanic for in combat, I feel it falls flat on their out of combat abilities like fascinate. I would ike to see a few more abilities like fascinate, and have abilities that should last a long time use 1 bardic performance per minute instead of per round.
For those of you who are complaining about the bard playing instruments durring combat, James has clarified that bards do not have to use perform they are profficient in to use bardic performance. (link) So unless you want to use an ability that requires an opposed roll, you can always use oratory or dance, even if you have no skill ranks in it. If you are using an opposed roll, the instrument can get you a +2
My big gripe with the instruments is simply that lutes and mandolins and harps won't do the job.
The ability is called "Inspire Courage." A half orc beating on drums to the rhythm of the warrior beating heads? That inspires courage. The dwarf chanting out loud or giving a speech on the great and epic deeds of your party? That'll totally inspire courage! I'm admittingly not entirely sure how pianos can be made to fit here, but I'm sure they can. Bagpipes and trumpets are classical and historical instruments for inspiring armies - straight from classical history!
And then there's this skinny elf git in green tights, strumming a lute and fa-la-laing about friendship. Please.
My big gripe with the instruments is simply that lutes and mandolins and harps won't do the job.The ability is called "Inspire Courage." A half orc beating on drums to the rhythm of the warrior beating heads? That inspires courage. The dwarf chanting out loud or giving a speech on the great and epic deeds of your party? That'll totally inspire courage! I'm admittingly not entirely sure how pianos can be made to fit here, but I'm sure they can. Bagpipes and trumpets are classical and historical instruments for inspiring armies - straight from classical history!
And then there's this skinny elf git in green tights, strumming a lute and fa-la-laing about friendship. Please.
What if the skinny elf in green tights is strumming a lute and fa-la-la-ing about battering your enemies head in with explicit details of the gore? ;)
While I get what you're saying... as a mandolin player myself I feel confident I could inspire you to courage if I needed to. "Battle of Evermore" anyone? :D
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I've been playing a PF bard since Feb '09 (Beta then converted to PRPG when released) and I think it runs pretty well for the most part. The skill tax for perform is kinda bad, but the versatile performance more than makes up for it if you choose well.
The only thing I'd change would be weapon proficiency. Instead of longsword and rapier, I'd allow the bard to choose one or two light one-handed martial weapon. This makes some allowance for cultures that don't commonly use those swords.
Oh! A sort of scaled-down familiar would be neat too! Kinda like the rules for a ranger with an animal companion.
For the record, I think the bard is a cool class with the right balance of power. Heck, I even think that Bardic Performance is mechanically balanced, it's just that everything else about it drives me nuts!
Anyway.
How about buffs that stay on all day so long as you're within a certain range of the bard, like constant paladin auras. That way bards can do OTHER things AND buff.
This is what I am considering. I am actually going to model bardic performance on infusions (from the Artificer) or rather Dwimmers (from my brother's Ardwright class). Minutes casting time, hours duration. They will, of course, be slightly less powerful than the rounds/day versions. And they will be unique, with A Cautionary Tale providing bonuses to specific saves, Trinklieder granting a bonus to fort saves, Hymns boosting cleric's channeling ability, Outlaw Ballads enhancing sneak attack, and of course a dragonslaying ballad of some type. The idea is that a party that travels with a bard over time is always benefitting from high morale. The bard will be able to enhance every member of the party in some way, but will have to pick just a few abilities at a time until he reaches mid-high levels. Again, the Ardwright is a good example of how to balance this power, I've been GMing for one for 2 years.
True. And even when its not about slaying vicious orcs (or undead, or demons), life as an adventurer is a lot more comfortable when one of the member is a bit of an entertainer.
I always considered that every character (except for the the most austere ones) each bring a few songs and bit of folklore around the campfire, but bards, with their more profound (if intuitive) understanding of psychology and human behaviour can really alter the performance of a group just by keeping the morale up. I always considered that when a bard activates its bardic music, all that time spent singing, telling stories and "taking care of his group" comes into a mechanical effects. Seriously, one need to be particularly quick and witty to grab its instrument and weave a magical song... in less than 6 seconds!
People forget that there are no MP3 players in this fantasy world. Nearly every person must play some sort of instrument or there is no music. This is one reason I think that a Feat model for performance works better than a skill (if the feats are made to be worth it). Sure, the fighter (or other optimized character) might not take it, but that quasi-elf ranger with the broken sword and elf girlfriend and undead army who hung around with hobbits a lot... he sure could sing.
People make much of the battlefield use of music in defense of the existing mechanic. I just don't buy it. I am defending the coolness of music as a factor in battle, I just think the current execution is direly lacking.
As a former music major and the son of a musician myself, I would be happy to help you do some of the legwork on this, Evil Abe. If you'd like to collaborate, hit me up at jeremymillzz at gmail (dot) com. I think it'd be great fun crafting different performances using all the different regions and factions in Golarion.
Deal. I'll email you shortly. The thing that bothers me most about the current rule is that there's so little music in it.
My big gripe with the instruments is simply that lutes and mandolins and harps won't do the job.
The ability is called "Inspire Courage." A half orc beating on drums to the rhythm of the warrior beating heads? That inspires courage. The dwarf chanting out loud or giving a speech on the great and epic deeds of your party? That'll totally inspire courage! I'm admittingly not entirely sure how pianos can be made to fit here, but I'm sure they can. Bagpipes and trumpets are classical and historical instruments for inspiring armies - straight from classical history!
I sort of agree. However, the delicate instruments -- played outside of battle -- have the power to remind soldiers why they fight. To your orcs and their drums I would counter a legion of men, driven down by the hard winter, missing their women and the comforts of home. The bard should be a character who can take that legion and remind them that they fight the enemy in defense of those things, and there is no nobler cause.
Soldiers who were weary and perhaps considering desertion should be made to swing harder and stronger in battle that day. I'm talking Henry V stuff.
The vikings are an undeniably bad ass people of history. Their instrument of choice for such inspiring called to battle? A harp. But then again, when the enemy attacks, the Skald puts his harp down and picks up an axe.
I like the *idea* of Versatile Performance, but its execution leaves a bit to be desired.
Agreed. Versatile Performance is the one area where I feel the PF bard falls flat. I retooled VP as follows:
Versatile Performance: At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill and gains one Art associated with that skill. He also gains a bonus skill point. Each type of Perform skill has several Associated Arts. Arts are special abilities that cause various effects. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can choose select an additional Associated Art and gains a bonus skill point.
I further detailed various Associated Arts, such as:
Accelerando (Su) When used in conjunction with Inspire Courage, Accelerando lets the morale bonus apply to Reflex saves instead of to saving throws against charm and fear effects. When the bard reaches 5th level, affected allies gain a +5-foot bonus to base speed.
Seeing as I'm not that great with inventing new and balanced class abilities (not that I believe, at least), after reading the first few comments this morning I thought about how cool it might be to play a singing Paladin "posing" as a Bard.
Making the bardic music a simpler ability would definitely remove some of the drag Math is from the bard class and maybe even improve the class' standing in the community.
@Evil Lincoln:
I especially like the idea of bardic performances that last for a long time. The bard could then become something of an opposite to the "normal" recharge mechanic and give out the buffs to his buddies in the EVENING sitting around a campfire while everyone else has to recharge in the morning/after the rest.
The next day, everybody wakes up fresh and filled with the stories/epics/songs from yesterday evening. The fighter beats his opponent to the catchy tune and grins, the cleric is inspired by the tales about religious heroes called to mind by the bard, the rogue steps more confidently and so on.
And in the middle of this all, the bard himself tumbles, backflips, and stabs around, reminding everybody of the great evenings they shared and the obstacles they overcame and once in a while giving an inspiring whoop for a short-time bonus or somesuch.
Also, failing a Will save might end the bardic bonus for you for a time, needing to be refreshed somehow. Dunno how to make that fit and if it might even be workable...
Damn, I love how this forum gets me thinking every once in a while.
^^
I think a big part of the problem with versatile performance is a problem with the perform skill itself. Here we have several skills that nobody has a good enough reason to take even one, and a class who has to take them all. Versatile performance is a band-aid on a bigger problem.
I really think perform should be reduced to one skill, and you should gain proficiency with one instrument per two ranks in the skill. Isn't that how it used to be? Anyway, that system is pretty close to real musicianship: the more instruments you play, the easier it is to learn new ones, and your performance on any given instrument is enhanced by you knowledge from all the others.
To make perform worth taking for interested parties, I would create a special type of magic item: "Songs of High Art" that have unique and powerful effects like rods or bardic music. Non-bards could use these tricks, but bards will really have the perform ranks to make the rolls reliably.
@Nether Saxon: I definitely plan to include an ability that lets the bard cast before rest and have the duration begin following morning (or when the creature wakes, if they are attacked mid-rest).
I think a big part of the problem with versatile performance is a problem with the perform skill itself. Here we have several skills that nobody has a good enough reason to take even one, and a class who has to take them all. Versatile performance is a band-aid on a bigger problem.
The only reason the bard has to take perform skills is to use his versatile performance. If he doesn't want it he doesn't actually need ranks in the skill at all.
The only reason the bard has to take perform skills is to use his versatile performance. If he doesn't want it he doesn't actually need ranks in the skill at all.I think a big part of the problem with versatile performance is a problem with the perform skill itself. Here we have several skills that nobody has a good enough reason to take even one, and a class who has to take them all. Versatile performance is a band-aid on a bigger problem.
Which is kind of lame the more I think about it, actually .... class feature, that *can* be of NO practical benefit what so ever, AND it's kind of tied to other limited resources (skills) to boot.
Very odd ...
Honestly ... (topic overall) I'm not sure I'd change too much. I *think* first and foremost I'd change the name. I've NO idea what I'd change it to, but up front w/the different performance types out there, there's not really a *need* to connect 1/2 of the class effects to music ... at all.
I'd maybe reflavor it a bit more around the "specialization" path that another poster suggested upthread a bit. I like that idea overall, but to mechanically tie it together in the class as options (maybe like a Rogue and Talents?) would just do a world of good for this class, IMO (especially after it's renamed to something less musical, but maybe make the "bard" a specialization path for the music-minded in the end).
Honestly ... what I miss of the bard is more of the *chance* that helps to develop the character. Learning songs from new lands/people/etc (ie: make the different bard songs almost more like Talents in selection or something like Feats and Evil Lincoln's thoughts there), having an open spell list, but with NO guaranteed spells at all - they HAVE to pick 'em up/learn 'em as they go along (ala: 2e). I kind of miss that with wizards in general, though. :shrugs:
I'd also echo that a cleaner set of mechanics would stand to benefit the class a bit regarding that skill substitution and all the rest of it. Hell ... what if you just said, "All skills are class skills for a Bard" and left it very plain and easy to deal with? They'd still be *unique* for this, IMO. Even rogues, w/more sp don't have EVERY skill as a class skill by default.
Yeah ... I don't have much there. For me, it's like 85% *good* overall. That 15% left over is more streamlining things to fit my own notions of "bard" and just making cleaner mechanics that tie to RP-based circumstances of the bard honestly.
I's also like to see musical instruments *validly* put to use with some hefty benefits associated with them for whatever benefit they provide in-game. Especially those 2-handed instruments. What if there was a spell, or class ability like "Phantom Player" or something like this that would let the bard use his musical performance kind of like a "dancing sword" or the like? That way, he's freed up to mess around with other stuff, but he can *still* maintain his performance w/an instrument. It's not like, you know, MAGIC doesn't exist or anything??? If we're going to be absurd in the first place (ie: the "singing class") then why not go "full gorilla" on it and totally let the BS just fly!!
Bard is but one component of the most amazing build ever:
Bard/Ranger/Mystic Theurge.
Particularly if you dual wield with the Ranger. This will let you play the piccolo AND the accordion at the same time!
Plus, longstrider lets you stay clear of your adoring fans!
Not to mention all your casting works in full armor.
....
OK, I guess I need to put a few more ranks in Bluff before anyone believes me on that one. :)
Honestly ... (topic overall) I'm not sure I'd change too much. I *think* first and foremost I'd change the name. I've NO idea what I'd change it to, but up front w/the different performance types out there, there's not really a *need* to connect 1/2 of the class effects to music ... at all.
The class could still be called a bard and have no "effects" based on its music. That's the way it was before 3rd edition with the exception of the "influence NPC reactions" and "inspire courage" which technically didn't even have to involve music. Even spellcasting wasn't tied to music, singing or whatever...
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When I set out to redesign the bard, I had two design goals:
• Better fit the jack-of-all-trades role;
• Explore the magic of music more deeply.
The problem with previous editions of the bard was how limited the build variety was. With the way stacking works, a party gains nothing from having a second bard. If the bard truly was a jack-of-all-trades, multiple bards should be useful in a party. An all bard party should be a legitimate option. Instead every core bard got the same bardic performance at the same time. Sure, bards have some variety of spells, but selection and spells per day are limited. Sure, feats separate characters from each other, but the bard’s split focus means a lot of root feats or else specialize in an area that another class handles better naturally. And sure, the bard gets a lot of skill points, but they have to invest them in one or two Perform skills to maintain their primary class feature.
I brainstormed the different ways the magic of music could fit into a fantasy RPG. It was definitely a theme that fit a class in the genre, but only one class. Every possible application of music as magic had to fit into the bard. I came up with five schools of music that applied to the bard:
• Mesmerizing: The snake-charmer;
• Minstrel: The cheerleader;
• Rousing: The coach;
• Sentry: The code communicator;
• Warchant: The smack-talker.
I gave each school two unique bardic performances at first level, and another at 3rd and every three levels thereafter. Each school is it’s own Perform skill unique to the schooled bard, ie Perform (sentry), and a single bard can invest skill points in one, two, or all five schools. All of the core bardic performances show up, but they are divided amongst the different schools. For example, bards with ranks in Perform (mesmerizing) get fascinate at 1st level, but they also get flashback. If they also have ranks in Perform (minstrel) they get countersong and musical curing as well.
Now a party can have two or even ten bards without feeling redundant. One can puts ranks in every school and have a wide variety of performances to choose from. One can focus on a single school and use his skill points to round out the character out of combat. One could dabble in a few different schools but focus on one, or not even. Ultimately, I believe I achieved both of my goals for my variant bard and a lot of feedback I’ve received makes me think people agree.
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As a musician, I hate bardic music. I feel if those powers exist, they should be more akin to actual musicianship instead of the weird abstract thing they are now. As a class ability, it seems really poncey and idealized.
My recommendations for "fixing" bardic music are the same as they were for the beta:
Bard songs should be powerful, unique spells that must be "learned" as a wizard learns new spells. This would allow the bard to be a song collector, and open opportunities for cool treasure. It would also encourage the bard to play into his social role in the party, connecting on a musical level with the cultures he encounters. Abolish the perform skill. Make it a series of feats that any character can take, and that works something like the Versatile Performance class ability. Different types of perform give you different skill bonuses, let you make money, and perhaps one juicy ability. Bards get Perform feats as a class ability (like rangers fighting styles) and the large number of song-spells they can learn might require certain perform skills as a pre-req (Ork battlesong requires drums, Drow Lullaby requires Voice, etc) A very few bardic music powers should fill a combat role like the current ones, but all in all they should be roleplaying powers. Bards should really be the kings of social manipulation, able to use their powerful songs out of combat to impart long-lasting benefits, or elicit certain behaviors. The bard should be the go-to character when morale is low — certain bardic music may only grant it's effect in situations where the story attached to the power is relevant. For example, a bard could find a song of ancient legend about a badly outnumbered army coming to an unlikely victory. This would only take effect if the party were badly outnumbered. Anyway, I think a lot of these ideas could be salvaged into findable "bardsongs" or something, but the current bard mechanically and stylistically fails to capture me.
While I like these suggestions, it seems to me that they are very much in line with how Bardic Music was treated in Everquest and or WoW. (I never played WoW, just heard about it). Perhaps that mechanic or seemingly similarity is why Paizo and the others didn't muss with it too much?
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As for OP, I am currently building a bard for our game scheduled to start in a month, so you can imagine how I scan the forums for anything about anything on bards.
I have read and re-read Treantmonks guide, and I think its a good one.
I don't quite get why people think they are underpowered, other than those who like doing 100+ points of damage per round or something, but frankly the bard has never really been about that.
I mentioned it before, but I like thinking out of the box for performing in combat. Use your longsword and shield (if you sord&bord) and beat out a percussive melody, use your whip to crack and pop (or dual wielded ones) to have a staccato like beat as your friend whups up on something, make naughty limericks about the Dragon from Nantucket, make the enemy less fearsome and thus inspire courage.
For sheer versatility sake, I don't think you can touch the bard, and in every game I have been in with a player that knows his sauce, the bard is always the one that comes out ahead. Always.
I disagree that its broken, and I look forward to seeing Evil Abe's alternate, might be interesting for sure, but I don't think anything really has to happen to the class as a whole.
For a suggestion though, it seems at middle levels (6-10ish) there is very little real benefit other than being able to start bardic music as a move action at lvl 7. Once you are past lvl 5, until lvl 10 its like a barren wasteland of new/growing abilities and its there I think that they need some help. Faster spell progression maybe, or more spells per day or something, additional +2 round per level of bardic music SOMETHING that makes you want to stay a bard and not multiclass, which is where the bard starts to suck, IMHO.
thats my 2cp.
While I like these suggestions, it seems to me that they are very much in line with how Bardic Music was treated in Everquest and or WoW. (I never played WoW, just heard about it). Perhaps that mechanic or seemingly similarity is why Paizo and the others didn't muss with it too much?
There is no Bard class in WoW.
Bard is but one component of the most amazing build ever:
Bard/Ranger/Mystic Theurge.
Particularly if you dual wield with the Ranger. This will let you play the piccolo AND the accordion at the same time!
Plus, longstrider lets you stay clear of your adoring fans!
Not to mention all your casting works in full armor.
....
OK, I guess I need to put a few more ranks in Bluff before anyone believes me on that one. :)
I totally want to play this now. I really do.
(Not for any SANE reason, mind.)
Now, Bard/Ranger/Arcane Archer might be fun, and actually effective (not necessarily a powerhouse, but effective).
Now, Bard/Ranger/Arcane Archer might be fun, and actually effective (not necessarily a powerhouse, but effective).
Ooh, I like that.
If I have any issues with the Bard I suppose it would be its image. The dancing mandolin player is hardly awe inspiring.
As for mechanics, the Bard is pretty tough. I would put them in the upper half of classes power-wise in Pathfinder - definitely beefed up from 3.5 quite a bit.
The last Bard I played was an Orator+ (Storyteller), and probably the toughest member of the party in a fight even after he made everyone else better.
Power-wise, Bards are great, at least in physical-combatant heavy parties, and there's PLENTY of ways to boost their song effects... They're probably one of the more efficient classes for the amount of effects they can do every round, especially once starting a Performance starts dropping in action cost. With their own effects up, their own combat ability is even in the realm of "so so".
I think playing up the general "Orator"/ battle-chanter aspect feels alot more, ahem, respectable, basically going for a more broad magical hero-type who play up their own juju rather than the (mostly) pure spell-casting focus that Wizards or Sorcerors go for, mechanics wise. Having "Dance" as a 2ndary Performance, so you aren't sound-dependent, is also thematically compatable with swinging a face-cleaving sword around....
What I would like, however, is one spell per level that is evocation based! I'm fine with Bards having limited access to certain spells, but since Bards are "all about flavor," it would be nice to be able to have one that uses Magic Missle, Flaming Sphere, etc as a warchanter.
If I was going to complain that there isn't enough "combat" Bard spells, I would NOT want those spells... Seriously, Summon Monster or Swarm would be way better in combo with the Bard's Performance, and if you want Evocation, Wall spells are going to be way more effective... I guess I don't see any need for new spells to be 'war chanter', as Confusion, their Performance benefit for Allies, Haste, and normal spells seem to fill the bill for me... I do expect we'll see some cool new spells in the APG, and if Bard-themed Evocation is possible, I'm all for it!
Having a Feat or Class Variant to gain a Familiar seems like it would be interesting for Bards, especially given their # of skill ranks... (if only Diabolist worked better with Bards)