I'd like to have a color and a simple symbol for each of the eight schools of magic in Pathfinder, plus the Universal school.
Creating meaningful but simple symbols is extremely difficult, so I was thinking I might co-opt the astronomical symbols as a start. These are very ancient – at least in the case of the 6 classical planets – and look more "magical" than just about any other symbols I know of.
The problem is that Golarion has neither the gods nor the planets with which these symbols are associated. This may be confusing to those who already draw meaning from the existing symbols. I'd be happy to know if anyone has a good set of symbols already devised, or if any artistically inclined person would like to fashion a new set.
For color, I mined a few threads on this forum for ideas.
Here is what I have so far:
What do you think? Do these all sit right?
I would remove cyan (too close to blue, and many people might not be so sensitive to hues to recognize it), and add brown. Simpler cultures would definitely acknowledge brown as a color. I would place it in abjuration, as brown (to me) gives the impression of earth, which is stable and solid. It might also work in transmutation, but I would put it in Abjuration, move green to Transmutation, and put Blue in Illusion. Otherwise, it's a good simple system that would be easy for most to remember.
TSR put some out back in the day with Icons for every school from the traditional ones to the Tome of Magic choices such as Elemental Mage. Someone may have a set kicking around and can provide a pic of the icon legend. (I may even have them in a closet some where.)
Ya know, I never really thought about it, but maybe its some sort of synesthesia. When I think of the different schools I do think of a particular color, but not yours.
Abjuration-white, opalescent
Conjuration-Yellow-Green
Divination-Cyan
Enchantment-Magenta
Evocation-Orange
Illusion-Purple
Necromancy-Black or Brown
Transmutation-Some red, polymorph is Green.
I'd name them after the planets in Golarion's solar system for more canonical weight.
http://paizo.com/image/content/SecondDarkness/PZO9014-SolarSystem.jpg
I'm not really after planets, but symbols for the schools.
I do think that tying the schools to the planets somehow would be really cool flavor! But that's not my main concern.
Mainly I used the planetary sigils because they have the right "look"; complex and arcane, yet iconic and recognizable.
Of those who I have asked, many people have been confused by the potential relation to real planets. Perhaps I do need some unique symbols instead.
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The Legends & Lairs series by Fantasy Flight Games had a series of 'School of Illusion,' 'School of Evocation,' etc. books that had unique symbols for each school, but they were a bit complex. Something more simple like the planetary / alchemical symbols might be easier to draw or stylize.
They also had symbols for each of the sub-schools / descriptors, like Cold, Figment, Shadow, etc. which was a nice touch.
It's strongly implied that the Varisians / Thassilonions had their own symbols for seven of the eight schools, based on their connection to Sin Magic / Rune Magic, seen in modern days through the Varisian Tattoo feat, but since we haven't seen any artistic depiction of those specific tattoos, that's not much of a help. (Although, if they resemble Dragonmarks, that could be cool.)
*bump*
I want more feedback.
I know the suggestions above are imperfect.
The reason I'm looking into this is that I want a more visually impressive way of handling detection in Maptool. So, if Pathfinder were a video game, and you had to describe how magic auras should show to players using detect spells, what would you present?
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The reason I'm looking into this is that I want a more visually impressive way of handling detection in Maptool. So, if Pathfinder were a video game, and you had to describe how magic auras should show to players using detect spells, what would you present?
Ooh, that's an interesting thought.
Abjuration - swirling shields, around a fog-shrouded indistinct center, spinning around in a threatening bulwark. The harder you try to make out what is encircled, the faster the shields seem to block your view. More powerful auras might have more ornate shields, while the weaker ones might have only a single undecorated shield, that hovers to interpose between you and the item / person / object you are viewing via detect magic. (You can still obviously see the item, as the shield representing the abjuration spell is only visible via the detect magic spell, and your mundane eyes work just fine.) If you make your knowledge (arcana) roll to try and figure out what sort of magic it is, the designs on the shield convey more information (a spiked shield might represent an abjuration spell that is dangerous, like a glyph of warding, for example).
A base symbol would just be a triangular shield (point down), with a magic circle on the front.
Evocation - different colors crawling across the item / area being seen, snaking golden tendrils of electricity, flickers of orange flame, patterns of blue-white frost. The patterns will be faint and indistinct for a weaker aura, and could even be glaringly bright or otherwise imposing for a stronger aura (the item seeming to be within a bonfire, wreathed in dazzling lightning, or frozen in a block of ice).
A base symbol could be three overlapping 'arrows,' one a stylized golden lightning bolt, the second a blue-white crystal-cut icicle and the third a tongue of red flame.
Necromancy - darkness, emptiness, a barely perceptible moaning sound or chill, with the item appearing hungry and enshadowed, as if devouring the light and warmth around it. In more potent cases, the item itself might appear to have a dust devil of sorts around it, only looking more like the swirl of water spiraling down a drain, as ambient energies are sucked into it, like matter into a black hole.
The base symbol could be a black circular maw, with two white lines spiraling out from around it, looking sort of like a spiral galaxy with a black center.
For the spell cards I'm working on (and just started reworking after losing a month to a fried video card) I went with the following:Abjuration - White
Conjuration - Orange
Divination - Silver/Grey
Enchantment - Green
Evocation - Red
Illusion - Purple/Violet
Necromancy - Black
Transmutation - Blue
Universal - Gold
Aha! What are your feelings on School Symbols? I think they may enhance your cards as well.
For the colours, I posted a thread about this in the Homebrew forums, and basically got a fairly wide range of opinions. I ended up going with the colours that worked best for the cards that seemed to have the strongest support, or best arguments in my opinion. To be honest, what colours are chosen don't matter too much as long you are consistent and there is some sort of plausible thematic tie.The Planetary/Astrology symbols are a different, but equally valid route to go. For the cards I'm producing, I went with the Thallosian runes from an old blog posting during the RotRL adventure path
Large 2 Card Sheet, card backs
Cards show their symbols, matching colours (and are located opposite the typical opposing schools). Artwork and graphic design by the talented SanityFair of Advent Studios.
I think I will probably use your colors. If enough people pick a standard and stick to it, the whole concept will be more meaningful.
Perhaps it is because I am a Runelords GM, but I'm bothered by the use of the Thassilonian runes to apply to all magic across Golarion. However, they might make a better working version than the planets, so I may use them for a bit (I was definitely going to use them in my home game anyway). I still think we can have a better "global" set of symbols though.
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I like the idea of the schools being defined by the scholarly community, and its symbols being the symbols of the most noted practicioners and academies. There'd probably be a handful of symbols for each school.
Abjuration: A white figure inscribed in a cartouche border. The protective aspect of Nethys.
Conjuration: A cross or star inscribed in a circle, often with diabolic flourishes. Usually red.
Divination: A silver or blue disc, meant to represent water or a scrying pool. The symbol of the Stone of Seers academy in Magnimar.
Enchantment: A bird in silhouette. A homage to Shelyn. Classically green or blue.
Evocation: A black figure inscribed in a cartouche border. The destructive aspect of Nethys.
Illusion: Usually none, but in older texts a stylized peacock feather.
Necromancy: A bisected ankh inscribed in a a cartouche border. The symbol of Geb. Silver or gold.
Tranmutation: A tower; the Fleshforge of Nex, inscribed in a cartouche border. Usually red.
Universal: A figure, half black, half white inscribed in a cartouche border. Nethys balanced.
As far as detecting different magical auras go...
Abjuration: A faint white occlusion that occasionally bleeds and cracks into a spectrum of color.
Conjuration: Tendrils of steam or motes of condensation, as though the item/creature has not magically acclimatized.
Divination: A ghostly ribbon, vine, chain etc. that encircles the object/area or trails off into nothing.
Enchantment: The blood vessels of the affected creature glow. The mildly enchanted look flushed.
Evocation: The object looks like it has been affected by the power type it contains. Frozen, burned, cracked. Ruined, basically.
Illusion: A sense of lost depth and disorientation when looking at the spell.
Necromancy: The affected exists in deep shadows unaffected by normal light.
Transmutation: It varies. The target either shows chimerical traits of the object they're mimicking (ghostly feathers, cat whiskers, spider eyes, rock skin, yada yada) or it shows an aspect of what it was before.
Universal: A blue glow. Old school.
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I think I will probably use your colors. If enough people pick a standard and stick to it, the whole concept will be more meaningful.
I like this idea. Not only having colors/symbols, but the above "standardization" idea especially. 8^)
Unfortunately, nothing other than that to add to the discussion...
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I think I will probably use your colors. If enough people pick a standard and stick to it, the whole concept will be more meaningful.I like this idea. Not only having colors/symbols, but the above "standardization" idea especially. 8^)
Unfortunately, nothing other than that to add to the discussion...
It's an interesting idea, using the Thassilonian runes. But wouldn't it be a give-away for any arcanist in a RotRL chronicle? What you have in those seven symbols is the philosophical and poltical basis for a culture that's supposed to be buried and very mysterious.
How many ancient symbols have been co-opted and used in the modern world? Sometimes these symbols are used for something unrelated to their original meaning, other times they are used for something entirely unrelated. I don't see the use of ancient Thassilonian runes as a necessary give-away. In fact, if those symbols are used all the time for magic, then the fact that they have an older use could be a cool tie-in that gives the setting a more organic feeling and layered depth.
I have such mixed feelings on it, Caedwyr. I don't think it's the wrong call to use the runes, but it is campaign/region specific, and so the symbols have a different meaning to those familiar. In many cases, that's not a bad thing either.
I'm going to try experimenting with Selk's descriptions; after all, the planetary sigils that originally inspired me were all supposed to represent that kind of thing. But don't let that invalidate your choice to use the runes for your spell cards! The Thassilonian runes are symbols for the schools, it's a completely valid choice.
EDIT: Hey all, how about taking a look at the magic gobbledeegook that Wayne Reynolds paints for spellcasters? There's some on the cover of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, and some more on the cover of Gods and Magic, and some (hard to read) ones on the CRB. Does anyone know of more art that has these kinds of symbols? Can anyone see some cool looking and salient rune in those images that might remind them of a school? (the three to the left of Rovagug's claw on G&M look good, as does the sickle-shaped rune at the bottom-center of that circle... perhaps that last would be good for necromancy?) Seoni's sash in the iconic pic has some stuff too.
The sihedron rune came from Mr. Reynold's art, I think maybe we should mine it for more symbols. Plus, the fact that these symbols appear visibly when mages and clerics (and gods, evidently) are casting leads me to believe they are very antediluvian and perhaps not tied to any mortal "meaning". They may manifest from the gestures of somatic components, even.
Loved the idea here. I made a chart for my versions. While I agree a more universal set would be better, I couldn't stomach white, black, and grey as school colors (not even as universal).
Here is my Chart.
Here is a Runelords spoiler-friendly version.
Here are the colors/symbols I used:
WOW
Thanks Majuba! I like how you even picked out golarion planets/colors that sort of make sense.
I guess if that's a second vote for including brown, I can get behind that. Perhaps it's not too late for Caedwyr to use those colors for his version.
Also, Majuba, note that there is an eighth symbol from the Thassilonian set, I'm not sure if it's universal or divination or both. You can see it used on Caedwyr's cards above.
Thanks for putting that together. That pretty much cements it for me!
EDIT:
Actually...
Maybe we should keep the planets as you've assigned them, but change the colors to match the planets? The colors would be perceptible from Golarion with the right technology/magic, and maybe the correspondence of aura and planet colors is the basis for the planetary association?
Also, one of those odd-planets-out ought to be the psionic one, eh?
I look forward to more thoughts on this!
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Loved the idea here. I made a chart for my versions. While I agree a more universal set would be better, I couldn't stomach white, black, and grey as school colors (not even as universal).
Here is my Chart.
Here is a Runelords spoiler-friendly version.Here are the colors/symbols I used:
Abjuration — Brown, Symbol: Earth, Planet: Verces the Line
Conjuration — Orange, Symbol: Pluto, Planet: Bretheda the Cradle
Divination — Yellow, Symbol: Mercury, Planet: Apostae the Messenger / Aballon the Horse
Enchantment — Blue, Symbol: Venus, Planet: Triaxus the Wanderer
Evocation — Red, Symbol: Neptune, Planet: Akiton the Red
Illusion — Violet, Symbol: Uranus, Planet: Liavara the Dreamer
Necromancy — Black, Symbol: Saturn, Planet: Eox the Dead
Transmutation — Green, Symbol: Jupiter, Planet: Castrovel the Green
Universal — White, Symbol: Sol, Planet: Sun
This is quite cool. I love the color considerations.
Do the planets actually have an effect on the schools of magic? I've become the nit-picker of this thread, but I'm very interested in the idea of some sort of cohesiveness to the philosophy and metaphysics of Golarion's magic. Right now it a sort of a cart before the horse treatment, where we have a book of spells and schools, but no real story of magic.
Does the inclusive 'kitchen sink' setting undermine any attempt to give Golarion a distinctive magical tradition? I wonder if the breadth of the setting actually makes magic less compelling as a cultural force, and thus makes systems like this less useful.
I know this sounds dippy, but...for all their faults, Krynn, Toril and Oerth at least had some sort of unifying magical theory that gave gravitas to the idea of what it meant to be educated in arcane lore.
Do the planets actually have an effect on the schools of magic? I've become the nit-picker of this thread, but I'm very interested in the idea of some sort of cohesiveness to the philosophy and metaphysics of Golarion's magic. Right now it a sort of a cart before the horse treatment, where we have a book of spells and schools, but no real story of magic.
Does the inclusive 'kitchen sink' setting undermine any attempt to give Golarion a distinctive magical tradition? I wonder if the breadth of the setting actually makes magic less compelling as a cultural force, and thus makes systems like this less useful.
I know this sounds dippy, but...for all their faults, Krynn, Toril and Oerth at least had some sort of unifying magical theory that gave gravitas to the idea of what it meant to be educated in arcane lore.
I feel that as a fan-made standard it should be left deliberately ambiguous, but that still gives us a lot of room to work with.
What we can say is that this relationship between the planets and the schools is very old and known across most of Avistan — just as the planetary sigils were used in alchemy throughout europe and northern africa.
If we were to adopt colors for the schools that were close to the planets they're associated with, that would strengthen the relationship and raise all sorts of questions. These questions are best asked and never answered. The question that came to me last night as I slept was:
If there is an implicit or explicit relationship between the celestial motions and all spells, do "spells per day" finally have a metaphysical basis in the setting?
To answer your important question: It's not up to us if there's a unified theory of Golarion magic. That's an editorial decision. As fans, we can create and use tools for GMs to make magic come alive. That's probably the best step toward an official theory anyway. But yeah, I do hope to one day see something like this in the Grimoire.
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Love the Thassilonian runes. I don't get Wrath, so much, but all of the others are evocative of their respective sins. Lust is even a little naughty!
The alchemical / planetary sigils don't feel as appropriate here. Ye ancient alchemists were not very creative, it seems, as half of them just seem to be modifications of the symbol for woman / feminity...
The alchemical / planetary sigils don't feel as appropriate here. Ye ancient alchemists were not very creative, it seems, as half of them just seem to be modifications of the symbol for woman / feminity...
You've got it backwards, I'm afraid, Set.
The symbol for Venus is supposed to be a "hand mirror" and the symbol for Mars a "sword and shield". The gender usage is derived from the planetary usage, I believe. There are older, more "intuitive" symbols for masculinity and femininity that predate the planetary usage by millennia. You know the ones I mean. :)
The planetary sigils are classical in origin (alternately greek or roman depending on who you ask).
In discussion with one of my players, we mentioned it may be nice to say the the names of the planets and their sigils in Golarion are Azlanti in origin. I don't own second darkness, but is there pertinent information therein?
Also, I am really digging the notion that per-day spell prep is linked (or thought to be linked) to Golarion's rotation and the planets. This could give a great RP justification for the per diem quality of spells found across all spell casters. To that end, I think that the psions may find a connection between their own powers and "The Stranger", Aucturn.