Hi there.
Just some ideas I have about making some feats for 1 weapon w/NO shield or anything else in the "off" hand at all.
The attempt is to bring back some of the AD&D "Fighting Styles" back to PF to add some variety and mechanical boon for using the styles.
"Narrow Profile" - a feat designed (maybe even ripped from some other source?) to add AC bonus to the 1-wpn user. It's like fencing in principal - present the most difficult target possible. +1 Dodge Bonus to AC when fighting w/one weapon in one hand and nothing in the other.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Dex 13+
"Improved Narrow Profile" - same deal as the first, but another +1 (+2 total, +3 if you factor Dodge in as a pre-req to Narrow Profile).
Prerequisites: Dodge, Narrow Profile, Dex 15+
"Improved Lunge" - a feat allowing a lunge w/out the -2 to AC problems. It also reduced the extra reach from a standard action to an "attack action", but is usable against only 1 target on any given round (ie: part of a full attack if you need/want to use it this way).
Prerequisites: Narrow Profile, Lunge, BAB +8
"Off-hand Balance" - gain a bonus on any acrobatics checks to perform any maneuvers around the battle field when holding a one handed weapon in only one hand, and not wearing heavy armor. +2 bonus when applicable. Also grants the ability to use the climb or swim skills with no penalty for carrying a weapon in one hand, and nothing in the other.
Prerequisites: Dex 13+
Suggested Disarm rule change/addition/whatever = if making a disarm w/one "free" hand and only a weapon in the other, you can instead of flinging the weapon away, choose to grasp the weapon/item/whatever in the "free" hand instead, taking possession of the item instead.
So ... thoughts?
I like the idea of feats for people using 1 weapon with nothing in their offhand (I'm actually building a bard like that right now lol). Improved Lunge may need to be written a little better but I'm pretty sure you were paraphrasing so that's not a problem. Also, just a quick question: When you say "also grants the ability to use the climb or swim skills with no penalty for carrying a weapon in one hand, and nothing in the other" in Off-hand Balance do you mean they don't take the -2 (or whatever the penalty is) or that they aren't flatfooted?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Hmm, two quick thoughts.
1) why wouldn't someone always use improved lunge? As I read it the feat (and lunge) doesn't create a 'dead space' like a pole arm does.
2) "and nothing in the other" How about no weapon/shield? I'm thinking of my tankard, but also the idea of the swashbuckler who dances holding the foes off while he gnaws on a turkey leg or something.
2) "and nothing in the other" How about no weapon/shield? I'm thinking of my tankard, but also the idea of the swashbuckler who dances holding the foes off while he gnaws on a turkey leg or something.
Take the improvised weapon feats hit people with the turkey leg? I've honestly played a few characters that don't use a weapon (or eat/drink something) in their offhand while they fight. There aren't many feats you can really give them though, I mean you could honestly use Combat Expertise as "Narrow Profile" and say that you go into defensive fencing stance when you use it. I like the idea of feats for characters with nothing in their offhand but there aren't really a lot of things you can do that haven't already been covered.
I just talked about this in another post but, you could add another feat with Quick Draw as a prerequisite that lets you catch people flat-footed when you draw your weapon. I'm pretty sure there's feat (or skill trick) like that in 3.5 but it's great when you're trying to play a Iaijutsu Master rip off :P
I just talked about this in another post but, you could add another feat with Quick Draw as a prerequisite that lets you catch people flat-footed when you draw your weapon. I'm pretty sure there's feat (or skill trick) like that in 3.5 but it's great when you're trying to play a Iaijutsu Master rip off :P
They just put that in the Adventurer's Armory - Sly Draw is it?
yeah - that stuff above is VERY rough draft (ie: paraphrased in the extreme!), so if it's sounds weird, that's sort of intentional. Questions like the ones I'm getting are exactly the thing I was looking for to help refine and define the feats, actually. So ... the more unclear you are, by all means keep pointing out the "oddities" so I can try and fix/address it all.
My thoughts on the points 1, and 2 made above:
1) You *could* always use lunge ... but it just lets you make 1 attack at reach (vs. the rest of a full attack). So, you can lunge all day long if you want ... but you'll never really get a full attack that way (unless there are people around you). My thought was to try and limit the impact of essentially adding "reach" as an option to every attack a character has with this feat. I figured granting full on reach is a bit much (especially w/it still being usable in regular rage), but to let one of the several attacks swing out wide or whatever is ok.
2) defining it to "weapon/shield" is probably more accurate for what I was gunning for. Honestly, though, food ... :shrugs: I'm w/the poster talking about Improvised Weapons on that front, PLUS if you do this, it's 2-weapon fighting now (not single weapon), so it's not really applicable to the direction I'm taking this line of feats in. It's still *neat* and doable with other feats, though.
On the "combat expertise can do this" no - it doesn't. Everyone can do combat expertise. I want *1-weapon in 1-handers* to do the Narrow Profile schtick. This MUST go beyond description and hit mechanics if it's to have any validity as a style choice. That doesn't happen by hand-waving Combat Expertise to fit the concept (unlike the turkey leg and Improvised Weapon - it was designed precisesly for that circumstance). Expertise is more broad and about the "defensive minded fighter", not the "hard/dodgy target".
As a matter of fact, I'm thinking about changing the Narrow Profile thing into a feat chain, 4-deep with cumulative effects, HOWEVER, it would also carry with it the "light armor only" line to limit how this works. Why might I do this? To finally provide a mechanic that the lightly armored, dodgy fighter can take to be effective in combat situations THROUGH SKILL AND AGILITY in a way that the current rules simply do not allow. I think a 4-deep feat chain to unlock better and better benefits is pretty fair. It also locks out shield usage (one-handed guys only), and 2-handers, and still would not equate the armor/defensive bonus overall of heavy armor. My 1st draft here:
1) Dodge
2) Narrow Profile (tack on lines of "light armor" only limitation to gain benefit).
3) Improved Narrow Profile (same lines as previous version, but bump dodge bonus by +2 vs. +1 [ie: now a +4 total at most] and have it stack with all previous versions.
4) Greater Narrow Profile (same lines as previous versions, but bump dodge bonus again by +3 - new, and final total of +7 dodge bonus total, usable ONLY with light armor, and NOTHING in the off hand.)
There would be more qualifying limits on this stuff, too - some BAB minimums to hit mostly (to keep the increases spread out over the career of the character). I've no solid ideas on where to place what just yet, but I figure the Greater version shouldn't see play until maybe level 12+ or so ...
As for "who would do the 1-weapon focus" ... I see it as the "swashbuckler/lightly armored" combat concept. The guys that pointedly do NOT stomp around in frakkin' plate mail and the like to announce their presence. Specialty, though - could be anything the other feats determine (ie: non-single weapon feats). I could see this disarming, or sundering, or whatever.
I like the idea of a "recover your weapon ... but only if you're using it 1-handed" in general, though. Nice *defensive* thought there.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
As a matter of fact, I'm thinking about changing the Narrow Profile thing into a feat chain, 4-deep with cumulative effects, HOWEVER, it would also carry with it the "light armor only" line to limit how this works. Why might I do this? To finally provide a mechanic that the lightly armored, dodgy fighter can take to be effective in combat situations THROUGH SKILL AND AGILITY in a way that the current rules simply do not allow. I think a 4-deep feat chain to unlock better and better benefits is pretty fair. It also locks out shield usage (one-handed guys only), and 2-handers, and still would not equate the armor/defensive bonus overall of heavy armor. My 1st draft here:
1) Dodge
2) Narrow Profile (tack on lines of "light armor" only limitation to gain benefit).
3) Improved Narrow Profile (same lines as previous version, but bump dodge bonus by +2 vs. +1 [ie: now a +4 total at most] and have it stack with all previous versions.
4) Greater Narrow Profile (same lines as previous versions, but bump dodge bonus again by +3 - new, and final total of +7 dodge bonus total, usable ONLY with light armor, and NOTHING in the off hand.)
I would allow Narrow Profile to work with heavy armor, improved with medium, and greater with light armor. This would make the ACs look like this (based on best armour possible, not counting mithral)
Heavy Armour: Full Plate +9 AC +2 for dodge/narrow profile. Max Dex bonus (assuming fighter 20) +5; AC at 21-26 before magic.Medium Armour: Breast plate +6 AC +4 dodge/narrow/improved Max Dex +7; AT at 20-27 before magic
Light Armour: Chain Shirt +4 AC +7 dodge/narrow/improved/greater max dex +8 AC 21-29 before magic.
The downside is the difficulty of getting a 20/24/26 dex for a front line fighter build. A 'sword and board' build with full plate and shield will top out at 21-26, so they're equal (though the shield will have magical enhancements, they suck up gold.)
On the "combat expertise can do this" no - it doesn't. Everyone can do combat expertise. I want *1-weapon in 1-handers* to do the Narrow Profile schtick. This MUST go beyond description and hit mechanics if it's to have any validity as a style choice. That doesn't happen by hand-waving Combat Expertise to fit the concept (unlike the turkey leg and Improvised Weapon - it was designed precisesly for that circumstance). Expertise is more broad and about the "defensive minded fighter", not the "hard/dodgy target".As a matter of fact, I'm thinking about changing the Narrow Profile thing into a feat chain, 4-deep with cumulative effects, HOWEVER, it would...
I meant someone could role-play combat expertise as stepping into a fencing stance or a more narrow stance/profile. People were telling I could role-play power attack as a bard I was using as I'm trying to hit a more vital place and that's why I deal more damage but I take a penalty to hit because I'm trying to hit just the right place. I was just kind of putting that out there.
I meant someone could role-play combat expertise as stepping into a fencing stance or a more narrow stance/profile. People were telling I could role-play power attack as a bard I was using as I'm trying to hit a more vital place and that's why I deal more damage but I take a penalty to hit because I'm trying to hit just the right place. I was just kind of putting that out there.
On the "combat expertise can do this" no - it doesn't. Everyone can do combat expertise. I want *1-weapon in 1-handers* to do the Narrow Profile schtick. This MUST go beyond description and hit mechanics if it's to have any validity as a style choice. That doesn't happen by hand-waving Combat Expertise to fit the concept (unlike the turkey leg and Improvised Weapon - it was designed precisesly for that circumstance). Expertise is more broad and about the "defensive minded fighter", not the "hard/dodgy target".As a matter of fact, I'm thinking about changing the Narrow Profile thing into a feat chain, 4-deep with cumulative effects, HOWEVER, it would...
I follow you - and I'm fine w/role playing out various things. But this is a mechanics-based thing, not RP-based.
Mechanically, there's a gap in making this sort of concept *workable* at all in the rules. So ... any way to go about it needs to be through mechanics, not "hand waving" to be effective.
At the core, though, we're all just "playing pretend" anyway, so I totally understand your point. ;-)
Dunno if you'd be interested but I was listening to the 3.5 private sanctuary podcast, and the apparently the newish product by 4winds Strategists and Tacticians has a bunch of off hand manuever and abilities for people using a weapon in a single hand. It might be worth checking out. I havent picked it up yet but I plan on it.
I like the idea of these feats, but they all seem a little weak.
Dodge in general is not considered a very strong feat, and you just made 2 more improved versions that are more restrictive. I would suggest giving them also a +1 to reflex saves or something similar.
Normal lunge allows you to make your full attack or use a special ability like cleave or whirlwind attack. I don't know why you think it is only useable on a single attack.
Off hand ballance seems weaker than the +2 to 2 skill abilities. It doesn't seem worth a feat.
Some additional feat ideas
An ability that causes an opponents next attack against you to provoke an attack of opportunity. Combine this with disarm for a fun effect. Perhaps having feint as a prereq.
An ability to parry blows, similar to the duelist.
The ability to add the trip and disarm quality to finnessable weapons.
An improved stup up that also lets you take an AoO, combat reflexes and step up as prereqs
Wow ... I've NO idea why I thought it was +5' for "standard" action ...Thanks for the clarification, and nice ideas in general.
*thumbs up*