Hello all. Just doing some prep for an upcoming campaign, and thought up a couple of relevant scenarios whose details I'm unsure of.
Scenario #1: Evil necromancer controls HD x 4 undead minions via animate dead. PCs invade the necromancer's lair, slay his undead, then slay the evil necromancer.
Question #1: Do the PCs get experience for the undead, or did the challenge presented by the necromancer include and encompass the animated dead?
Scenario #2: PC necromancer animates zombies with animate dead, and orders them to guard a specific area. Raiders attack the area, and the PC's zombies repel or kill them.
Question #2: Does the PC necromancer gain XP for the defeated raiders, since the zombies represent expended spells and resources on his part?
Technically, summoned and created creations count as part of the person that made them for XP purposes. So a necromancer's skeletons count as part of defeating the necromancer, and you don't get XP for killing them individually.
By the same token, your skeles give you XP for defeating things; however, few DMs are going to let you get a lot of XP for battles you aren't in.
Technically, summoned and created creations count as part of the person that made them for XP purposes. So a necromancer's skeletons count as part of defeating the necromancer, and you don't get XP for killing them individually.
Is this true even if the necromancer and his undead are encountered seperately? The PCs get no XP for the undead they encounter in the dungeon - they just get XP for the necromancer at the end?
Just chiming in to second what K said.
Scenario 1, the animated undead are part of the necromancer's CR rating. Awarding XP for a necromancer's skeletons is like awarding XP for a wizard's fireballs or a rogue's sneak attacks. All these NPCs are just using their class abilities to win the fight, and that's what their CR is for.
Scenario 2, the player has class abilities that can function with him or function without him. But the "Advancement" section of the core rules says "As player characters overcome challenges, they gain experience points."
That's pretty clear - to get XP the player character must overcome the challenges. If he is not involved in overcoming the challenge, well, he has no "experience" from which to get XP, and the RAW completely supports this fact.
Technically, summoned and created creations count as part of the person that made them for XP purposes. So a necromancer's skeletons count as part of defeating the necromancer, and you don't get XP for killing them individually.Is this true even if the necromancer and his undead are encountered seperately? The PCs get no XP for the undead they encounter in the dungeon - they just get XP for the necromancer at the end?
There are two ways for a necromancer to put undead in his dungeon. He can animate a limited number and control them directly. This is his class ability and is not worth additionial XP. Note that it is possible for him to animate his maximum number of undead and send them off to fight the PCs on their own. Still no XP for the undead since when the PCs finally find the necromancer, he won't have that class ability since he already used it up*.
The other way is he can animate them and turn them loose. There is no limit to this. A baby necromancer could have a thousand skeletons guarding his lair, if he has the time and resources to animate so many. But he won't be in control of any of them. In this case, those undead are in addition to the amount allowed by his class ability, therefore their XP is also in addition to the XP of the necromancer.
* Note: if the necromancer has time to animate more undead and use them too, then the PCs should get XP for all the "extra" undead above the necromancer's maximum.
Technically, summoned and created creations count as part of the person that made them for XP purposes. So a necromancer's skeletons count as part of defeating the necromancer, and you don't get XP for killing them individually.Is this true even if the necromancer and his undead are encountered seperately? The PCs get no XP for the undead they encounter in the dungeon - they just get XP for the necromancer at the end?There are two ways for a necromancer to put undead in his dungeon. He can animate a limited number and control them directly. This is his class ability and is not worth additionial XP. Note that it is possible for him to animate his maximum number of undead and send them off to fight the PCs on their own. Still no XP for the undead since when the PCs finally find the necromancer, he won't have that class ability since he already used it up*.
The other way is he can animate them and turn them loose. There is no limit to this. A baby necromancer could have a thousand skeletons guarding his lair, if he has the time and resources to animate so many. But he won't be in control of any of them. In this case, those undead are in addition to the amount allowed by his class ability, therefore their XP is also in addition to the XP of the necromancer.
* Note: if the necromancer has time to animate more undead and use them too, then the PCs should get XP for all the "extra" undead above the necromancer's maximum.
Yes and no. An ambush by a CR8 group is not the same CR as a normal encounter against a CR 8 group. Being ambushed increases the CR of the encounter. It is part of the ad hoc experience adjustments for favorable/unfavorable terrain or conditions.
If you encounter a caster and they are able to summon creatures during the encounter, then it counts as part of the caster's base CR.
If the caster has time to buff and summon monsters ahead of time, then the CR of the encounter should be increased accordingly. A caster being able to cast several days worth of spells should be factored into the caster's CR.
Thus a necromancer who has had months of time to create an army undead is not the same CR as a necromancer who hasn't.
Hello all. Just doing some prep for an upcoming campaign, and thought up a couple of relevant scenarios whose details I'm unsure of.
Scenario #1: Evil necromancer controls HD x 4 undead minions via animate dead. PCs invade the necromancer's lair, slay his undead, then slay the evil necromancer.
Question #1: Do the PCs get experience for the undead, or did the challenge presented by the necromancer include and encompass the animated dead?
Scenario #2: PC necromancer animates zombies with animate dead, and orders them to guard a specific area. Raiders attack the area, and the PC's zombies repel or kill them.
Question #2: Does the PC necromancer gain XP for the defeated raiders, since the zombies represent expended spells and resources on his part?
RAW the skeletons produce no X, but if they are created before the battle I award XP for them anyway, especially if they don't burn the caster's spells for the day. An example would if he created them a day or more in advance of the PC's arrival.
If the necromancer made the undead creatures outside of combat, I'd count them as normal minions and give XP for them. If he did it by casting a spell in combat, then I wouldn't.
Actually, when I DM I just hand-wave when the PCs go up a level because I have no interest in tracking fiddly accounting details. But in theory that's what I'd do.
If the necromancer made the undead creatures outside of combat, I'd count them as normal minions and give XP for them. If he did it by casting a spell in combat, then I wouldn't.
Actually, when I DM I just hand-wave when the PCs go up a level because I have no interest in tracking fiddly accounting details. But in theory that's what I'd do.
That reminds me.
If the necromancer has the leadership feat, and the undead are classified as minions received from that feat, then they do not increase the CR of the necromancer.
I have been building a home brew game involving this very issue and this is what I use.
If the wizard / big bad / etc had to use any of his powers to have the minions in question be present and helpful, then the minions are not part of the XP total as the big bad is diminished by their presence. Easy for summoned creatures and undead animated in a fight.
If the wizard / big bad / etc is not diminished by the presence of the minions (i.e. undead that are controlled but were animated last Thursday, just after tea time) and the act of controlling them is not requiring much effort (i.e. the feat Command Undead, not the spell Control Undead), which again does not diminish the wizard / big bad / etc, then the XP for the minions is counted normally.
In cases like Leadership, the presence or absence of the cohort is not likely affect the combat effectiveness of the big bad (unless there are a lot of teamwork feats involved). Likewise, the presence of the troops does not change the big bad's combat effectiveness, only his effectiveness is accomplishing his big plot (unless you are using mass combat rules, but that's a whole different matter). So again, in this case, if the game mechanics do not change in any other way for the big bad, the minions are calculated separately.
The scenario that involved this was the presence of a non-summoned, non-controlled imp that just happened to like the new evil wizard that took control of the cult from the previous evil wizard. The imp was a familiar (from Improved Familiar Feat) of the prior wizard, did not die with him during the change in management and decided to hang around. When the party (being duped at the time) killed the previous big bad, the imp was part of the total XP. But now that the imp is on his own and choosing to stay, it is a separate source of XP.
Now, one might say "Hey, isn't the cohort you get from Leadership just as important, if not more so that the familiar you get from Improved Familiar? Why isn't that part of the total big bad's XP? It's still a spent Feat slot right?" To that I say this. As a GM, there is a big difference between when minions choose to follow you and when they 'have' to follow you. Cohorts are there by choice. Powerful, yes, but ultimately, their control is in my hands, not the players. Familiars, animal companions, etc. have to do what the character wants. It's part of the bond. Thus, they are in the player's control. If a character is constantly sending his cohort out to near-suicide missions or not giving him his proportional share of the treasure (usually 1/2 a normal share), the cohort is going to leave, damaging the Leadership score for when the next cohort comes in. And having a 3.5 campaign where two people had the Leadership feat (and made heavy use of their cohorts) get 20th level, the additional power of that cohort is worth way more than just one feat.
"Ok, smart guy, if that's how you play it, does the cohort or minion that chooses to adventure get factored in when dividing the total XP for the group?"... Well, that's depends a lot on the input of the cohort or minion. I have ran games where the party was being assisted by a couple of NPCs of equal level and they were being equally helpful, both in and outside of combat. Likewise, I have ran games were the cohorts were sent off doing administrative tasks while the players were puzzling out the next plot hook. It depends on how much assistance those NPCs were giving that the time. In combat, where the cohorts were only doing what they were ordered (even if this went against in-game character thinking), then they would only count as half. If the cohort was fully helpful and taking initiative that the party didn't cover, then full. Same for non-cohort NPCs. If the cohort wasn't doing anything more than 'getting coffee', then no XP for him.
After a while, it became clear to the players that relying on their cohorts during their own missions was starting to slow them down (consequently because each member of the group wasn't being 'challenged' as much), so they decided to start sending them off on side-missions, ala Strike Team Beta, which was helpful in speeding up the plotline and assisting the long term goal.
But that's my two coppers...
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The age old "power gamer" rules apply (in anything I run). No you can't create zombies every day and slay them again and again and get more and more xp for doing it... so no, the zombies made don't give XP (only real independent ones do). But then, those creative players will use "independant ones" to farm entire towns (CE aligned players that is) and game multiple levels. This, I think, is why PFS doesn't allow Evil characters... all the damn zombies (How many bodies are in the cemetary in the main city of 400000 people? Remember, its been nearly 400 years that they have been burying bodies there).
As for the second part: it can be argued that the actively activating a spell which kills someone gives you XP from the kill (or driving off). Perhaps that is why Lich's keep getting more and more powerful despite having nothing close to them to kill... But honestly, its probably not work trying to record.