Does making a PC race large automatically incur a +1 Level Adjustment penalty? I'm re thinking some things for certain races including using ideas of the Goliath from Races of stone as a model. But if the race is 8'-9' tall on average would that mean that they are significantly more powerful than other races? Among other things I'm thinking of making a race based on the amphicyons which are in one of the monster manuals as bear hounds, and something like is big. That and maybe rethink the one bear race and if I haven't done so already make something for elephants, hippo and rhinos as anthro races. In some ways, yes, I am thinking of a kind of Pathfinder version of the Giff, but bundled with other pachyderm types so I avoid any legal issues...
Does making a PC race large automatically incur a +1 Level Adjustment penalty? I'm re thinking some things for certain races including using ideas of the Goliath from Races of stone as a model. But if the race is 8'-9' tall on average would that mean that they are significantly more powerful than other races? Among other things I'm thinking of making a race based on the amphicyons which are in one of the monster manuals as bear hounds, and something like is big. That and maybe rethink the one bear race and if I haven't done so already make something for elephants, hippo and rhinos as anthro races. In some ways, yes, I am thinking of a kind of Pathfinder version of the Giff, but bundled with other pachyderm types so I avoid any legal issues...
Yes. +1. If you use the giant creature template that is. I adds Str and Con, and reduces Dex. I think it's totally fair. The thing with large creatures (aside from the damage) is the reach, that's a VERY powerfull feature.
Rant: I still don't understand why on earth larger creatures don't get a speed in crease. THAT doesn't make any sense, and should be reviewed, but ok.
Rant: I still don't understand why on earth larger creatures don't get a speed in crease. THAT doesn't make any sense, and should be reviewed, but ok.Because then humans could never outrun them. If your only option against the giant is to run away, and he's faster than you...
Hehe, that's why they are a BIG problem ;) (It was bad I know, but I had to do it)
The thing is, why do small creatures get a decrease then? It should work both ways. (no pun intended with that one)
I would think that a large creature couldn't accelerate as fast as a medium creature, so in a combat situation it wouldn't be any faster. However, overland movement would be faster.
Does making a PC race large automatically incur a +1 Level Adjustment penalty?
What is a level adjustment?
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Meh, the stride might be huge, but so is the weight you're swinging. As you have to move that extra 200 pounds *or whatever* per leg three times farther, I can totally see why you wouldn't move faster.
It's not like taking a person to scale and increasing their size also increases their strength proportionately. It's just more weight, and a specific bonus to str, which might not be significant enough to cover the difference.
For example, a human with a str of 12 has a carrying capacity max of 130 lbs. They also weigh a maximum of 220 lbs
A human with the giant template goes up to large. Str from 12 to 16. max carrying capacity of 230 lbs. According to the enlarge spell, the size increase multiplies the weight by 8.
So max carrying capacity of 230 lbs
max weight of 1760 lbs.
Big difference in comparison.
A level adjustment means that you're total character level is now equal to all your class levels plus your level adjustment.
So, effectively, a 7th level fighter with 1 ecl would be equal to an eighth level character.
I'm talking about a race that starts out large.
Height range say 8'2" +2d8 inches for males 8' +2d8 inches for females weight 400 lbs *5 adjustment for males and females being about 50 lbs lighter. Stat adjustments of +4 Str -4 Dex +2 Con -2 Int +2 Wis -2 Cha is what I am thinking. Now given these basic stats, the race is Large sized; does it have a +1 LA and if so, why?
reach and increased weapon damage would be my guess. But ya know LA is dead now anyhow. Still Reach alone is awful powerful
Rant: I still don't understand why on earth larger creatures don't get a speed increase.
I agree. Follow-up on this idea: if speed isn't linked to size, why are Medium characters 50% faster than Small characters?
But ya know LA is dead now anyhow.
Bah. Stranger aeons fast approaching!
LA is feeling great and wants to go for a walk!
Reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.
It just took a leave of absence. It will be back, new and improved.
Just because something's no longer part of the core rules, and there are no hard and fast rules doesn't mean the concept is gone..
If you think it's a bit too powerful, you could always just give your critter a racial hit die or two, and not allow the players to trade them in for class levels.
I stole the Giant race form Mote Cook, and use it in my game fairly regularly. While the players can buy down 2 of the racial HD, they are always one "class level" behind the rest to make up for the benefits of reach etc if they are a caster, 2 HD if they are a warrior type class.
Rant: I still don't understand why on earth larger creatures don't get a speed in crease. THAT doesn't make any sense, and should be reviewed, but ok.Because then humans could never outrun them. If your only option against the giant is to run away, and he's faster than you...Hehe, that's why they are a BIG problem ;) (It was bad I know, but I had to do it)
The thing is, why do small creatures get a decrease then? It should work both ways. (no pun intended with that one)
One issue, though probably not the only, is that it would make the Enlarge and Reduce series of spells too powerful. The former becomes a poor man's haste/expeditious retreat, the latter a poor man's slow. You'd have to up their spell level (which then invites the "But they've ALWAYS been 1st level!") or add additional clauses to the spells.
OTOH, from a verisimilitude level, I agree with you. Generally the longer the legs, the faster you can run (with variations and exceptions of course depending on specific anatomy).
Meh, the stride might be huge, but so is the weight you're swinging. As you have to move that extra 200 pounds *or whatever* per leg three times farther, I can totally see why you wouldn't move faster.
It's not like taking a person to scale and increasing their size also increases their strength proportionately. It's just more weight, and a specific bonus to str, which might not be significant enough to cover the difference.
For example, a human with a str of 12 has a carrying capacity max of 130 lbs. They also weigh a maximum of 220 lbs
A human with the giant template goes up to large. Str from 12 to 16. max carrying capacity of 230 lbs. According to the enlarge spell, the size increase multiplies the weight by 8.
So max carrying capacity of 230 lbs
max weight of 1760 lbs.Big difference in comparison.
A level adjustment means that you're total character level is now equal to all your class levels plus your level adjustment.
So, effectively, a 7th level fighter with 1 ecl would be equal to an eighth level character.
You forget one thing. Their carrying capacity increases by x4 AND your weight doesn't count, so, your argument is invalid.
It's not because you are big that you are clumsy, that's a bad definition, cause there are several big creatures in the game that are agile.
@Death Quacker - Balance may be a little bit different, but I'm not saying there should be 20 or 30 feet more, something like 10 even FIVE feet, would make me happy.
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A large creature has a greater reach than a medium creature. 10ft instead of 5ft.
Now, enlarge takes you to huge, a reach of 15ft. Thus, a medium creature with a reach weapon would still have to provoke an aoo to move in and attack in one round.
Also note that bonuses to ability scores aren't equally balanced. Bonuses to strength aren't necessarily equal to penalties to int or cha.
+4 str +2 con +2 wis and -4 dex -2 int -2 cha is obviously unbalanced when you consider a fighter. This obviously makes for a superior fighter character, or even a str monk, and while in pathfinder it might not be worth a level adjustment in and of itself, I think combined with the size bonus *another bonus to that type of combatant* definitely worth a level adjustment.
Pathfinder is purposely vague about supplying formulas for level adjustments because you have to make these sorts of interpretative evaluations.
Or, in other words, great question :D
I would say that if you made a race large, you should start off with a basic race from the phb, increase the size to large, and start taking away other stuff until it's a toss-up between that race and another of the races.
So, lets start with human as the base race.
Going from medium to large size gives them size bonuses and penalties.
+2 str, -2 dex, -1 to attack rolls and ac from size.
space 10 ft reach 10 ft
So our modified human (lets call it the protohuman) has +2 str -2 dex and +2 to one ability score of their choice. Base speed of 30. Bonus Feat. Skilled.
Let's take away the bonus feat, and the bonus skill.
Which race is better at this point?
Human:
+2 to one ability score
Medium
Speed 30
Bonus feat
Bonus skill point
Proto-human:
+2 to str, -2 dex, +2 to one ability score
Large
Speed 30
Note that this allows a character to start with a possible 22 to strength.
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You forget one thing. Their carrying capacity increases by x4 AND your weight doesn't count, so, your argument is invalid.It's not because you are big that you are clumsy, that's a bad definition, cause there are several big creatures in the game that are agile.
@Death Quacker - Balance may be a little bit different, but I'm not saying there should be 20 or 30 feet more, something like 10 even FIVE feet, would make me happy.
Actually, the point wasn't to imply that body weight is factored into carrying capacity, but rather to provide a point of comparison between effort and body weight, and the best way I felt to do so is within the carrying capacity rules since they detail the total amount of weight a character can carry. You're right though, that I didn't factor in the x4. I'll do so now.
Medium character with a 12 strength:
Body weight of 220
max heavy load of of 130 lbs
the large version of that character has:
Body weight of 1760
Max heavy load of (230 x 4)= 920
So medium character ratio would be:
220/130 = 1.69 pounds per carrying pound
Large character ratio would be:
1760/920 = 1.91 pounds per carrying pound
I wasn't implying that you were clumsy because you were big. I was implying that because you were big, your muscles have more effort to swing your arms and legs. Due to the greater pivot point range on the joints, you get more work out of your arms and legs, i.e. greater range of movement and what-have-you, but the greater weight per pound slows down the movement proportionately to keep your speed equal with a medium creature.
Sorry if I wasn't clear as to my argument in my previous post. Hopefully, this should clear it up.
I'm thinking this for making a race of pachyderm humanoids. Something that can be used to create PCs who are anthropomorphic elephants, rhinos or hippos. In certain ways I'm trying to create as many races in the animalistitc vein so I can basically have a Pathfinder version of Iron Claw.
Does making a PC race large automatically incur a +1 Level Adjustment penalty? I'm re thinking some things for certain races including using ideas of the Goliath from Races of stone as a model. But if the race is 8'-9' tall on average would that mean that they are significantly more powerful than other races? Among other things I'm thinking of making a race based on the amphicyons which are in one of the monster manuals as bear hounds, and something like is big. That and maybe rethink the one bear race and if I haven't done so already make something for elephants, hippo and rhinos as anthro races. In some ways, yes, I am thinking of a kind of Pathfinder version of the Giff, but bundled with other pachyderm types so I avoid any legal issues...Yes. +1. If you use the giant creature template that is. I adds Str and Con, and reduces Dex. I think it's totally fair. The thing with large creatures (aside from the damage) is the reach, that's a VERY powerfull feature.
Rant: I still don't understand why on earth larger creatures don't get a speed in crease. THAT doesn't make any sense, and should be reviewed, but ok.
I completely agree, if they are making smaller creatures move slower than the larger ones should be able to move faster (by the games logic)
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Ahh, I see... well, anthropomorphic creatures are an entirely different issue :/
Sort of :p
So really, what you're looking for is a template for each size category that you could apply to any particular creature. If I'm understanding you correctly.
So, first take a neutral medium character. I'm going to apply the modifiers for the various beast shape spells to each category with some notes regarding them. Then, we'll move on to natural attacks and other stuff.
Diminutive animal: +6 dex, -4 str, +1 NA
Tiny animal: +4 dex, +2 str, +1 NA
Small animal gets +2 dex, +1 na
Medium: +2 str +2 NA
Large gets +4 str -2 dex +4 NA
Huge gets +6 str -4 Dex +6 NA
For the natural armor bonuses, you can modify those to racial dodge bonuses to ac if that's more fitting for the particular race, but note that it stacks with itself so they'll be getting some extra benefit from that.
Basically speaking, larger versions of creatures are worth losing a level of fighter for. Smaller versions of creatures might be similarly beneficial to casters, especially if you grant unusual movement types such as flight.
If your goal is to allow these creature to be usable without a level adjustment, that's possible, but the races will have to take some extra, less fun penalties.
Lets try some specific examples. Your Rhino-based humanoid would have the following characteristics:
Large
+4 str -2 dex +4 NA
If you want to keep theme elements, like the rhino's horn, then I strongly suggest you use the size chart for natural attacks on pg 302 This would give you a gore attack from the horn of 1d8
Note that natural attacks, such as a gore, don't get multiple attacks from having a high base attack bonus.
Some possible penalties would be a lower carrying capacity due to all that weight on just two legs now. A slower movement speed. Additional penalties to int. Restrictions in armor and/or weapon use. Penalties to combat-useful skills such as perception, intimidate, or the like.
When you look at the special attacks and abilities the creature has, ask yourself if the player could get that ability through game mechanics. If so, you can probably just mark it right off the list. For the rhino, I'd ignore powerful charge. The character can use class levels to build up bonuses to charging attacks, if so desired.
Be very careful with creatures that have flight. It's a huge bonus in low level games, and the lack of hands can be a huge penalty later on.
Anyhow, that should give you a good base for creating pretty much any man-animal you like ;P
For the elephant, you might change the bonus to strength over to a bonus to con instead. Just don't forget to give them drawbacks of some sort with actual mechanical impact in the game to balance their size. You should be able to look at the core rulebook races and the races you create, and be unsure which one you would rather play as a fighter from a mechanical standpoint.
Ahh, I see... well, anthropomorphic creatures are an entirely different issue :/
Sort of :p
So really, what you're looking for is a template for each size category that you could apply to any particular creature. If I'm understanding you correctly.
So, first take a neutral medium character. I'm going to apply the modifiers for the various beast shape spells to each category with some notes regarding them. Then, we'll move on to natural attacks and other stuff.
Diminutive animal: +6 dex, -4 str, +1 NA
Tiny animal: +4 dex, +2 str, +1 NA
Small animal gets +2 dex, +1 na
Medium: +2 str +2 NA
Large gets +4 str -2 dex +4 NA
Huge gets +6 str -4 Dex +6 NAFor the natural armor bonuses, you can modify those to racial dodge bonuses to ac if that's more fitting for the particular race, but note that it stacks with itself so they'll be getting some extra benefit from that.
Basically speaking, larger versions of creatures are worth losing a level of fighter for. Smaller versions of creatures might be similarly beneficial to casters, especially if you grant unusual movement types such as flight.
If your goal is to allow these creature to be usable without a level adjustment, that's possible, but the races will have to take some extra, less fun penalties.
Lets try some specific examples. Your Rhino-based humanoid would have the following characteristics:
Large
+4 str -2 dex +4 NA
If you want to keep theme elements, like the rhino's horn, then I strongly suggest you use the size chart for natural attacks on pg 302 This would give you a gore attack from the horn of 1d8Note that natural attacks, such as a gore, don't get multiple attacks from having a high base attack bonus.
Some possible penalties would be a lower carrying capacity due to all that weight on just two legs now. A slower movement speed. Additional penalties to int. Restrictions in armor and/or weapon use. Penalties to combat-useful skills such as perception, intimidate, or the like.
When you look at the special attacks and...
Not especially, I'm contemplating creating another race that I'll post to the database or keep to myself for when I decide to enter RPG superstar this year. Or if I decide to get of my duff and try and make a Pathfinder book that is for anthropomorphic gaming in its entirety and geared mainly towards the furry community as a gateway into Pathfinder. I already have a ton of races but I need to be all inclusive to make a viable book. One of my inspirations is of coarse Iron Claw. but while I want to use that world as a model I don't want to copy it verbatim. But the tips are appreciated.