So being a musician I've always enjoyed playing Bards but I always have trouble figuring out how to play them. Lately though I've been watching One Piece and I just got to the part when Brook joins the crew and I've been inspired to play a Bard in a similar fashion. If you don't know already, here's Brook. At the moment I plan on playing a Half-Elf (as I doubt my DM will let me play a skeleton or some other sort of undead) and using Perform (Sing) as my main performance art. As the Half-Elf I'll put my skill focus in Perform (Sing) and technically get skill focus for 3 skills (I think Perform: Sing gives me Diplomacy or Bluff and Sense Motive with Versatile Performance). As far as my ability scores go, we're using the 20 point buy and I have them arranged like this at the moment - Str: 13, Dex: 15, Con: 12, Int: 14, Wis: 7, Cha: 15 (I'm still debating on whether I want the +2 from Half-Elf in Dex or Cha).
My biggest problem right now though is figuring out what feats I want to take. I'll be using a "shikomizue" (well a rapier that I say is a cane sword because I kind of doubt my DM will know what a shikomizue is and he's open to customizing weapons) so I will probably take Weapon Finesse at 1st level but from there I'm not really sure what I want. I thought the Spring Attack tree and Vital Strike would be kind of fun but then I thought Arcane Strike would be nice and Combat Casting would be good to have. Any suggestions?
Give this a read treantmonk's guide to bards It will be more helpful then anything i could suggest.
Give this a read treantmonk's guide to bards It will be more helpful then anything i could suggest.
I've actually looked through that but he doesn't seem to have anything for the finesse bard (or at least not in the original post).
There is a reason for that. If you go weapon finese with dex as a primary stat you might as well not use the rapier, you arent likely to do any considerable damage.
There is a reason for that. If you go weapon finese with dex as a primary stat you might as well not use the rapier, you arent likely to do any considerable damage.
It has the same damage output as a short bow, although I guess a short bow can get off 1 more attack than a rapier if the person has rapid shot.
There is a reason for that. If you go weapon finese with dex as a primary stat you might as well not use the rapier, you arent likely to do any considerable damage.It has the same damage output as a short bow, although I guess a short bow can get off 1 more attack than a rapier if the person has rapid shot.
You are also forgetting many shot. Thats 2 additional attacks to which arcane strike and deadly aim can be applied. That is a signficiant difference in damage. Not to mention you get these multiple attackes much earlier, and dont have to move as much to get them off.
But I don't wanna use a bow lol. I suppose I could use a Long Sword and change my str and dex around although I'd like to be dexterous it would probably help me out in the end, well with damage anyway.
But I don't wanna use a bow lol. I suppose I could use a Long Sword and change my str and dex around although I'd like to be dexterous it would probably help me out in the end, well with damage anyway.
I realize that you didnt want to use a bow, I was just explaining why the rapier didnt have the same damage output as the shortbow. You can still use a rapier, just used strength instead of dex as your higher score. Saves you a feat anyway, which can go towards arcane strike, or something of that sort.
I realize that you didnt want to use a bow, I was just explaining why the rapier didnt have the same damage output as the shortbow. You can still use a rapier, just used strength instead of dex as your higher score. Saves you a feat anyway, which can go towards arcane strike, or something of that sort.
That's true, I had considered using a Long Sword with a higher strength before the Rapier though, my critical multiplier goes down but I get like a .5 more damage on average and I do slashing damage :P
That's true, I had considered using a Long Sword with a higher strength before the Rapier though, my critical multiplier goes down but I get like a .5 more damage on average and I do slashing damage :P
I realize that you didnt want to use a bow, I was just explaining why the rapier didnt have the same damage output as the shortbow. You can still use a rapier, just used strength instead of dex as your higher score. Saves you a feat anyway, which can go towards arcane strike, or something of that sort.
Much more than .5 actually since you don't have less strength than dex. Your strength and your strength are exactly the same.
Any other ideas for feats other than to not take Weapon Finesse? Which, no offense to Kolokotroni or Madcap Storm King, I'll probably take anyway because I plan on being more agile than strong.
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Weapon Focus when you can get it, Skill Focus(Use Magic Device) and/or Skill Focus(Acrobatics), Fleet, Agile Manuevers, Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise(note that the penalty to attack rolls only applies to [i]melee[/b] attacks), Dodge and the feats you need it for, Defensive Comabt Training, Extra Performance(this is a good choice no matter what type of Bard you are), Improved Initiative, Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps, Quick Draw, and Toughness.
Spell Focus(Conjuration) and Augment Summoning can make you a dangerous foe once you're a high enough level for the duration to last more than 1-3 rounds.
Skill Focus(whatever you're using for your Bardic Music) is not something I'd recommend, though it is nice to use it and make some cash on the side.
Just went though the feats section and picked the ones I thought would be of use to a Bard. Hope it helps.
I'm pretty sure he's getting Skill Focus from the Half-Elf and it's actually giving him Skill Focus in Perform (Sing), Diplomacy, and Sense Motive (well when he becomes 2nd level) because of Versatile Performance.
Since your strength is 13 you'd be daft to avoid picking up power attack as soon as you can fit it in. If you choose to go the weapon finesse route (it's been explained why this is a less optimal choice) you'll definitely need power attack to be able to dish out any sort of significant damage. I'd also recommend picking up arcane strike sometime after 5th level (when it will add +2 damage). At 11th level grab improved critical to take advantage of the higher crit range, and the shift into critical focus and one of the critical feats (sickening critical is particularly wonderful for a bard).
As a bard you'll be able to apply enough buffs to shore up your lower attack bonuses (good hope, haste, inspire courage are the big 3)so you might even consider picking up two weapon fighting (only the first), and move into shield bashing since your power attack & arcane strike will supplement your damage bonuses.
This isn't at all what I wanted. Did anybody look at the link? He's not really strong, he's light on his feat and in reality the only reason he kills the thing in 1 hit is because he knows they die if they eat salt.
This isn't at all what I wanted. Did anybody look at the link? He's not really strong, he's light on his feat and in reality the only reason he kills the thing in 1 hit is because he knows they die if they eat salt.
Wow, ok, that's kind of a crappy thing to say. Everyone was offering ideas to make your weapon finesse build worthwhile, and not a waste of space at the table. Why don't you read through some of the replies and pick out your favorites, because, really, posting a youtube video and asking how to make weapon finesse with a "Rapier" work didn't seem to get the job done.
I actually asked how to make a character similar to Brook from One Piece not how to deal the most damage as a Bard. I didn't mean to come off snarky so I'm sorry about that I was just kind of disappointed that no one gave me any insight on what I actually wanted to do.
This isn't at all what I wanted. Did anybody look at the link? He's not really strong, he's light on his feat and in reality the only reason he kills the thing in 1 hit is because he knows they die if they eat salt.
The link really doesn't tell us much beyond he's skeleton with a 'fro and a top hat that sings and uses a sword cane.
I'm not really sure what it is you are asking from us. You have decided on the race/weapon that will create the character you've envisioned, but you are adamant that you aren't looking for mechanical advice.
Not sure how to help you.
I think I'm just thinking too hard about this. I just don't envision him as some guy power attacking or having a high strength. I imagine more as the guy floating through a battle field.
I think I'm just thinking too hard about this. I just don't envision him as some guy power attacking or having a high strength. I imagine more as the guy floating through a battle field.
Strength 13 isn't what I'd consider a high strength, but it's the bare minimum required to take Power Attack. Now, power attack, mechanically speaking, takes a negative to your attack to give you a bonus to your damage. You can play that as a reckless brute swing or as a precise aiming that's harder to hit because you *actually* care where it strikes. Deadly aim, the ranged weapon version of power attack, uses the same fluff- aim for a specific target to deal more damage with a penalty to hit.
Just consider this: If you're only doing 1d6 damage every hit (rapier, no strength) it's not going to be worth anyone's time when you get to 3rd+ level. You'll be a glorified flanking bonus. Now, if that's what you're cool with, go right ahead. If you actually want to contribute to combat using your rapier finesse bard, consider taking feats like power attack, arcane strike, improved critical, critical focus, sickening critical, etc. By the time you hit high levels (16ish) you'll have a *base* bonus to damage along the lines of +16 (1 str + 8 power attack + 3 inspire courage + 4 arcane strike), and that's ignoring weapon enhancements or your awesome critical range of 15-20 for double damage.
Also, if you want to be the guy who "floats through the battlefield," I recommend taking Dodge & Mobility, and investing heavily in acrobatics (or perform: dance) to easily maneuver between enemies. Spring Attack is a good choice for this route, and whirlwind attack is groovy as all get-out.
Also, if you want to be the guy who "floats through the battlefield," I recommend taking Dodge & Mobility, and investing heavily in acrobatics (or perform: dance) to easily maneuver between enemies. Spring Attack is a good choice for this route, and whirlwind attack is groovy as all get-out.
I had thought about the Spring Attack tree and Vital Strike for slightly more damage when I get to the point where I have a higher BAB. I guess that might be my best bet. I may switch my dex and str for Arcane Strike instead of Weapon Finesse, I guess it's just not really what I had in mind. Maybe I should just take Catch-Off Guard and Arcane Strike and attack people with magically infused instruments :P
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Just using Pathfinder. There are a few things i can say about bards.
1 Focus on party buffing.
2 Don't focus on Cha if you want to be a combat bard.
Fighting Bard
Str 14
Dex 15 +2 = 17 Half Elf ( +1 at levels 4, 8 , & 12 )
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 14 ( +1 at levels 16 & 20 )
you don't really need any spell above 3rd because that's haste and good hope. Thous two spells are the most important ones for a bard. ( Level 7 move action start song standard action cast haste or good hope )
Feats
Weapon Finesse
Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Critical Rapier
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Extra Performance
Toughness
For skills i recommend putting at least one point in to all knowledge skills at some point.
Never for get to max out Stealth and Use Magical Device.
Versatile Performance you will want to take 3
Dance ( Acrobatics , Fly ) more for Acrobatics then Fly
Oratory ( Diplomacy, Sense Motive )
Sing ( Bluff, Sense Motive )
Brook in the video is using what looks like long thin Blade closes in Pathfinder is going to be a Rapier. I wold go Rapier and Dagger for Two Weapon Fighting. Using Songs and Spells should make up the to hit difference for you. And as a bonus the group gets to use your song as well.
Just my take.
There are ways around every thing you just have to find them
Ya Brook is supposed to be some sort of fencer, so I'm not sure why they call his weapon a shikomizue. I guess Two-Weapon Fighting could make up for my lack of strength but wouldn't I technically have to sheath a weapon every time I wanted to cast a spell? I don't really think my DM would make me but I guess if he did, I'm only using a dagger in my offhand so I could just drop it and grab another (assuming it's not magical or anything).
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Pick up Quick Draw problem solved.
Quick Draw (Combat)
It's still a move action to sheath the weapon. But at level 13 you can start songs as a free action. ( Sheath sword , Cast Haste , & Start song becomes round one. Quick Draw weapons full attack round two )
And for the Sword.
The shikomizue (literally "prepared cane") is a Japanese concealed sword disguised as a cane or walking stick, similar to the swordstick. It was used mostly by the shinobi[citation needed]. It is most famous for its use by the fictional swordmaster Zatoichi.
The name shikomi-zue is actually the name of a type of mounting; the sword blade was placed in a cane-like mounting (tsue), to conceal the fact that it was a sword. These mountings are not to be confused with the Shirasaya mountings, which were just plain wooden mountings with no decorations.
Some shikomi-zue also concealed metsubushi, chains, hooks, and many other things. The shikomi-zue could be carried in public without arousing suspicion.
I wouldn't say Brook is a bard. Some martial class with a maxed Perform(String instruments) should be a better fit.
I you can use 3.5 content, maybe a refluff of the Iajutsu master PrC, based on a rogue (after all, he's a pirate) with some feat to catch opponents flat-footed when using Quick draw.
I wouldn't say Brook is a bard. Some martial class with a maxed Perform(String instruments) should be a better fit.
I you can use 3.5 content, maybe a refluff of the Iajutsu master PrC, based on a rogue (after all, he's a pirate) with some feat to catch opponents flat-footed when using Quick draw.
He plays the piano and sings/hums too :P The reason I wanted to do a Bard though was more for the purpose of playing a "musician" although I guess anyone with ranks in Perform could be a musician of sorts. I think I may go with something like this though:
Half-Elf Bard
Str: 16 (14+2)
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 7
Cha: 15
1: Arcane Strike, Skill Focus (Perform: Sing)
3: Dodge
5: Mobility
7: Spring Attack
9: Vital Strike
11: Improved Critical
13: Critical Mastery
15: Improved Vital Strike or a critical feat
17: Whatever I don't take at 15th
19: Open, not sure we'll get this far
My skills would be something like this: Bluff or Diplomacy (1 or the other because 1 is covered by Perform Sing), Climb, Escape Artist, Knowledge's (just mixing up some skill points in different knowledge's), Perform (Dance), Perform (Sing), Stealth, and Use Magic Device. I'll probably also drop some ranks into other perform skills as I level up but those are the main skills I'll be using. I'll probably up my Charisma to 16 at 4th level them put my the other bonuses in Strength, maybe a few in Dexterity. I may also move Critical Mastery to 17th and take a critical feat at 19 so I can take Quicken Spell for quick boosts to AC but I'm not really sure, I can always do stuff like that in the 1st round of combat.
EDIT: On a side note there is a feat (or maybe a skill trick) in 3.5 that lets you catch people flat-footed when you draw a weapon that would be really cool for an Iaijutsu Master.
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If you are going that way you need to drop the Dex down and incress your Con. From a surviability stand point.
Bluff is coverd by Perform Sing I looked it up. Diplomacy can be coverd by Preform Oratory. Thay both give you Sense Motive. After playing for a long time I can not stress to you how much of a difrence Acrobatics can make. Bards end up needing to move in combat to line up spells heal a frind. Why you move to do this Acrobatics helps you not get attacks of opportunity. Bards don't get level 5 spells till level 13 you can start with a Cha of 14 Pick up one at 12 and 16 and never be short on your highest level spell you can cast.
Str VS Dex bases for combat there are pros and cons. For a bard with songs at level 10. With out using Stat Two Handed BAB 7/2 Bard Song 9/4 Haste 10/10/5 +2 Damage for each hit. Using your starting Str 16 +1 at level 4 and 8 plus songs and haste. Base weapon only 14/14/9 +8 damage per hit. total bouns damage 24 plus 6D6 for weapon. Two Weapon BAB 5/5/0/0 Bard Song 7/7/2/2 Haste 8/8/8/3/3 +2 Damage for each hit. Using my starting Dex 17 +1 at levels 4 and 8 base weapons only plus song and haste. 12/12/12/7/7 + 6 damage per hit. Total Bouns damage 30 Plus 3D6 2D4 for weapon.Haste and Bard songs combind are the most potant force on the feald for the group to use.
Sounds like a fun character to play Hototo (can't see the link right now). All I would say is don't be afraid of Power Attack because of the name - just use it exactly like Deadly Aim, a lunging strike at just the right spot.
If you are going that way you need to drop the Dex down and incress your Con. From a surviability stand point.
Bluff is coverd by Perform Sing I looked it up. Diplomacy can be coverd by Preform Oratory. Thay both give you Sense Motive. After playing for a long time I can not stress to you how much of a difrence Acrobatics can make. Bards end up needing to move in combat to line up spells heal a frind. Why you move to do this Acrobatics helps you not get attacks of opportunity. Bards don't get level 5 spells till level 13 you can start with a Cha of 14 Pick up one at 12 and 16 and never be short on your highest level spell you can cast.
Str VS Dex bases for combat there are pros and cons. For a bard with songs at level 10. With out using Stat Two Handed BAB 7/2 Bard Song 9/4 Haste 10/10/5 +2 Damage for each hit. Using your starting Str 16 +1 at level 4 and 8 plus songs and haste. Base weapon only 14/14/9 +8 damage per hit. total bouns damage 24 plus 6D6 for weapon. Two Weapon BAB 5/5/0/0 Bard Song 7/7/2/2 Haste 8/8/8/3/3 +2 Damage for each hit. Using my starting Dex 17 +1 at levels 4 and 8 base weapons only plus song and haste. 12/12/12/7/7 + 6 damage per hit. Total Bouns damage 30 Plus 3D6 2D4 for weapon.Haste and Bard songs combind are the most potant force on the feald for the group to use.
Acrobatics is covered by Perform (Dance). With the str vs. dex/two-weapon thing I'm not really that good with numbers and I wasn't really looking to play a two-weapon fighter, not that I'm saying my build is better (because you kind kind of see by looking at what you posted it's not) but I'm just going for more of a 1 weapon build. As far as my Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma go, I might switch some numbers around for a higher con but I like having more dex and cha as a Bard.
Sounds like a fun character to play Hototo (can't see the link right now). All I would say is don't be afraid of Power Attack because of the name - just use it exactly like Deadly Aim, a lunging strike at just the right spot.
I guess I've never read the fluff for Deadly Aim. I might take Power Attack but I think I should be ok (hopefully) with Arcane Strike and a 16 strength. On an unrelated note, I may change my primary Perform skill to Perform (Dance) because I've always liked having a high Acrobatics check, although it would be slightly more in my favor to put it in a Perform skill with 2 skills I'll use. Why they picked Acrobatics and Fly for dances Versatile Performance I will never understand. Although the only other reasonable skill I can really think of for dance is possibly Escape Artist.
I think your main issue is in trying to do too many things at once. The character you want to emulate isn't a D&D character.
You want to be a great and multiuse musician
AND a good damage dealer
AND a dexterity build
AND have high AC
AND not use a bow
The problem is, most of these don't really fit together, especially not all at once.
I think your main issue is in trying to do too many things at once. The character you want to emulate isn't a D&D character.
You want to be a great and multiuse musician
AND a good damage dealer
AND a dexterity build
AND have high AC
AND not use a bowThe problem is, most of these don't really fit together, especially not all at once.
I initially didn't really care about doing a lot of damage but seeing as how that's what everyone cares about I got sidelined into it. 14 dexterity isn't what I'd call a dexterity build either and also a dexterity build kind of covers a high AC (which I never really said anything about). Not using a bow was somewhat obvious if you look at the character I'm trying to emulate and although he may not be a D&D character I've known quite a few people that try and emulate non D&D characters in D&D. Just saying.
I'm not sure why people are dismissing a high dexterity build as being non-viable in terms of damage output. Sure, you aren't getting a lot of damage from strength, but the bard has a number of ways to remedy that, especially since maintaining bardic performance is now a free action.
I can easily see a viable two weapon fighting build that would look something like this:
Human Bard
STR 14
DEX 17
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 7
CHA 14
Level 1: Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting
Level 3: Arcane strike
Level 5: Weapon Focus (Short sword)
Level 7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
And so forth. At level 10 you'll be gaining a +3 damage bonus from arcane strike and another +2 from bardic performance (when it's active), and since you're fighting with two weapons, that adds up. You can make up for sub-par attack bonus with spells like heroism and good hope. You can keep putting your points in dexterity, improving your attack bonus and AC, while your damage bonuses scale with arcane strike and bardic performance.
I don't think this is too shabby and fits your request of doing an acrobatic swashbuckling bard.
EDIT: And I just noticed you didn't want two weapon fighting. Oh well.
EDIT: And I just noticed you didn't want two weapon fighting. Oh well.
I'm not completely opposed to using 2 weapons, it's just not what I had planned.
So, I will now throw my hand into the mix. Hope I get somewhat of what you are looking for. The strength is high enough that even though you have a higher dex you don't need weapon finesse. Don't be affraid of power attack, its a really efective way of dealing damage, and as others have pointed out it can be flavored in many ways.
str 14
Dex 16 (14 +2)
Con 12
int 12
wis 9
cha 15
1. Arcane strike
3. Weapon Focus Rapier
5. Dazzling Display
7. Power Attack
9. Shattered Defenses
11. Improved Critical
13+ crit feats
I would not recomend Vital Strike, especially if you go with a d6 weapon. I personally find it too situational and not enough bonus damage. Though I know others find the spring attacking character to be a lot of fun, and vital strike is a good bonus to them. I just find it to situational and not enough damage in my games.
I think I'm going to give the Vital Strike build I try. I have yet to play a character with it and I've been wanting to try because I enjoy playing Spring Attacking builds. Thanks for your help guys and sorry about the rude comment earlier.
Who said I'm not using a shield? (sorry to have answered your rhetorical question). Is it bad that I had almost thought about asking to play the character with only 1 arm though? That's crazy that you said that lol. I might have to ask now and see if he'll give me a feat or something for it.
It will make a more interesting build, plus you can RP the whole bonus feat thing,,,,
Bard: "Well there was this wretched, doubled over, old hag sitting next to me at the Rusty Bucket back in Portstown you see and I seemed to mention that I'd give my arm if it'd make me a better fencer... I felt a searing pain in my right shoulder and the next thing you know I was face to face with what looked some sort of she-devil (though not the kind that seduces you to into bed with an impressive bodice, the kind that reeks of death so much you can see it) chewin' on my right arm. After I skewed her a through the eye I left town. Every man I've fought since has said I'm neigh untouchable in a fencing match because I'm missing an arm."
DM: Ugh... All right, you can have a +1 dodge bonus to AC.
lol ya I had to come up with that on the spot because I hadn't figured out how he lost his arm.
Lol well ya of course I need some more character concept and back story, I just needed a reason for being a one armed Half-Elf.