|
This came up in a PbP game's OOC thread - is the Holy Warrior variant of Cleric balanced as it exists in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting (pg.43)?
I searched for prior discussion on the forums - and it was a bit light.
The only thing I found was James talking about actually adding "Heavy Armor proficiency" above and beyond what's printed (which would increase it's power slightly at mid levels when heavy armor was affordable?).
Thoughts? Discuss away...
|
|
My big concern with that class is it could quickly outstripe martial characters in combat via self buffing. I've seen cleric builds that threaten to overshadow melee characters without the BAB bonus.
I haven't play tested it or built up a killer Full BAB cleric so it's tough to say, the martial classes got some pretty significant power ups in PfRPG.
I want to see a full BAB Bard though :) Not sure what they would lose... hmm.
It does look powerful. I want to try it out to see how it works in a game. Sometimes things look a lot better on paper than they actually are.
|
I don't believe it to be a problem. You trade a spell slot per level, possibly a few spells known, and the domain special abilities, for the ability to get your 4th iterative attack, qualify for BAB feats earlier, and an average of 1 HP more per level. I don't even care about the BAB difference, because for the first half of your progression, it's less than a +3 difference. You'll have other bonuses to hit that matter more than that. I dare say the holy warrior variant is the best way to make a frontline spellcaster.
|
|
It would seem the biggest objection would be a cleric with this variant would be stronger than a Paladin.
If it's overpowered, what would you do to balance it?
When it first came out the idea that this guy would overshadow the paladin was a big concern of mine. Now? The Paladin has a lot it brings to the table. It's going to be pretty hard to make someone who is more effective in the paladin's roundhouse.
|
|
The tradeoff for extra HP and BAB (and possibly heavy armor) seems upon first glance pretty decent. The Cleric is already loosing some major abilities with the domain spells and domain abilities.
Now my first thought is why? The cleric is ALREADY a battle cleric, a holy priest designed to wage war. If the class were built more along the lines of, say a wizard, limited to light or no armor with poor BAB and such, then I would easily see the need for a battle cleric. It seems like a good compromise for a party that lacks either a tank or a healer, but otherwise it is just a spellcaster usurping a niche designed for another class.
Don't think it is a BAD idea, but one of very limited usefulness. A Fighter would quickly find himself playing backup tank which would normally be his main role. Even a Paladin might wonder what his role in the party really was.
I played one in Curse of the Crimson Throne and it was fine, but then again I didn't "superoptimize" the character. I had a cleric of Sarenrae that didn't want to totally suck with the scimitar so she took that. She could hit (kinda), but still did awful damage. Eventually crit feats threw her a little bone but it still wasn't overwhelming by any stretch. Now if I had CharOpWeenied the whole thing it probably would have been a "better paladin than the paladin." Really as it was Beta at the time, it was her energy channeling that was her biggest asset...
|
|
Don't think it is a BAD idea, but one of very limited usefulness. A Fighter would quickly find himself playing backup tank which would normally be his main role. Even a Paladin might wonder what his role in the party really was.And then he would Smite the BBEG and remember. :)
[threadjack]
Sorry, just had this vision of a Paladin fighting an Anti-Paladin (or whatever you want to call it) and both using Smite against one another... wow that would be freaking awesome![/threadjack]
back on topic...
I don't think it is a bad thing at all. Just keep in mind the other players and their role in the party and you are set. In a small party or a party with no tank or healer, like I said, this would be a GREAT class to have.
I really do think it is pretty balanced. Just like EVERYTHING it can be abused, or can be under utilized as well. But overall not a bad class variant at all.
My players ran one alongside a pally, and while they were able to hang together, the pally was still doing more damage, while the cleric was doing more control and healing spells work. They made for an interesting team, that's for sure.
|
In terms of this, fighters and pallys would outstrip this class. The reality is that it's not 3.5; fighters are REALLY good at what they do; they get better acs, far higher damage output, and Weapon Spec, pallys will always be the best "invincible" tank in PF (can't really beat swift action heal, never mind amazing saves and an animal companion. They did a good job on these classes in the upgrade, and just a little BAB will not put the cleric "on par" by any standards as a front-liner (especially if you don't throw in the free heavy armor proficiency),
The only one who might feel outstripped is the inquisitor, PF's new answer to "combat cleric". It was already having some difficulty keeping up on the front line, having divine able to pick up full BAB may make it toally useless.
Playing one in an in frequent game right now. The fighter certainly outshines him in the damage department. Don't know how it would compare to a paladin as I haven't seen a PFRPG Pal in play, but over all I think they would be balanced against each other. Different specializations. We are only about level 4 right now, but so far I am missing
the new domain benifits.
I am playing a Holy Warrior of Gorum, and quite frankly, a paladin or fighter would do more damage.
At level 6, if I get the chance to cast divine favor I get +2/+2. A paladin who smites gets +charisma to hit, +level to damage, and ignores DR. the paladin can smite as a swift action, my cleric has to waste a round buffing.
At level 12, a fighter will have weapon spec, greater weapon spec, greater weapon focus, and weapon training 2. That is +3 to hit and +6 to damage on all attacks. A holy warrior can cast divine power and righteous might for a +7 to hit, +9 to damage, and an extra attack that doesn't stack with haste. The holy warrior does more damage, but only if they spends 2 rounds buffing.
And that pretty much sums it up. The holy warrior has the same problem that gishes have. You need buffs to compete with fighters and paladins, but every round you spend buffing is a round you are not dealing damage.
I personally think it is a bit too powerful--full BAB and a d10 HD with full spellcasting. The loss of domains is painful, but the end result is a full martial character with powerful spellcasting.
No other class or PRC can do this. Even in 3.5 the only example that comes close to this is the Fist of Raziel from Exalted Deeds, and that would require either a loss of BAB (in order to qualify as a straight cleric) or being stuck with paladin only spellcasting. And even with those limitations, a cleric based Fist of Raziel was exceedingly powerful.
The dream of every character optimizer was full BAB and 9th lvl spellcasting, and this class variant hands it to you on a silver platter.
The PF changes make it even more attractive, as every character now gets more feats, so that the battle cleric is not nearly as feat starved as before. And the lack of needing to spend skill points in Concentration makes it easier as well.
Compared to other martial classes, the holy warrior's powerful spells would soon outstrip any benefit of the other classes. His defensive abilities would be unmatched, and he could achieve attack bonuses with the proper spells that other characters could never reach. The PF change to Divine Power actually make it better for the holy warrior cleric, as it is a straight luck bonus rather than simply giving a full BAB to the cleric.
If optimized properly (High Str, followed by Wis then Con), this character would be a combat machine. He'd use his high level spell slots for quickened buff spells, and he'd have long duration extended buffs on himself constantly. The changes in PF to Dispel Magic make it much less likely that he would have all his spells stripped, too. And he'd have enough feats to make himself combat capable even without the buffs.
I personally wouldn't allow it, and I'm very lenient in what I allow in game.
I personally think it is a bit too powerful--full BAB and a d10 HD with full spellcasting. The loss of domains is painful, but the end result is a full martial character with powerful spellcasting.
No other class or PRC can do this. Even in 3.5 the only example that comes close to this is the Fist of Raziel from Exalted Deeds, and that would require either a loss of BAB (in order to qualify as a straight cleric) or being stuck with paladin only spellcasting. And even with those limitations, a cleric based Fist of Raziel was exceedingly powerful.
The dream of every character optimizer was full BAB and 9th lvl spellcasting, and this class variant hands it to you on a silver platter.
The PF changes make it even more attractive, as every character now gets more feats, so that the battle cleric is not nearly as feat starved as before. And the lack of needing to spend skill points in Concentration makes it easier as well.
Compared to other martial classes, the holy warrior's powerful spells would soon outstrip any benefit of the other classes. His defensive abilities would be unmatched, and he could achieve attack bonuses with the proper spells that other characters could never reach. The PF change to Divine Power actually make it better for the holy warrior cleric, as it is a straight luck bonus rather than simply giving a full BAB to the cleric.
If optimized properly (High Str, followed by Wis then Con), this character would be a combat machine. He'd use his high level spell slots for quickened buff spells, and he'd have long duration extended buffs on himself constantly. The changes in PF to Dispel Magic make it much less likely that he would have all his spells stripped, too. And he'd have enough feats to make himself combat capable even without the buffs.
I personally wouldn't allow it, and I'm very lenient in what I allow in game.
I don't know why some many people incorrectly assume that caster + full BAB = OP. First, you can attack and cast spells at the same time without being high level and using quickened spells(which requires a feat). The MAD(Multiple ability dependancy) and need for casting feats combined with a lack of bonus feats kills you in the end.
You have no charisma for channeling. Selective channeling feat is based on your charisma. With a 11-12 charisma you get 4-5 channels a day and you can exclude 1 or 2 targets. Having less spells makes you more reliant on channeling to heal, and since you do have the feats to spare for defensive casting, channel is your only in combat healing.
No dex and no heavy armor profiency. This further hurts because reflex is your one weak save. Finally, you don't qualify for dodge, mobility, etc.
So you have to get some of the standard combat feats like weapon focus and power attack to keep up with the other warrior classes. Then you need channeling feats and casting feats as well.
Finally, one good greater dispel magic, and all your rounds spend buffing go to waste.
Level 16 Human holy warrior of Gorum with an elite panel.
Str 17 -> 26 at level 16(+3 level +6 magic item)
Dex 10
Con 13 -> 20 at level 16(+6 magic item)
Int 8
Wis 14 -> 20 at level 16(+6 from magic item)
Chr 12
Feats(9) - Weapon Focus(Great Sword), Power Attack, Heavy Armor Prof, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Improved Critical(Greatsword), Cleave, Lunge, Lightning Reflexes
HP - 165(average)
AC - 28(+4 with Shield of Faith)
Touch AC - 10(+4 with Shield of Faith, -2 with Righteous Might)
Saves- Fort +19, Ref +11, Will +19
Attack: +16(BAB) +8(strength) +5(weapon) +1(weapon focus)= +30/+25/+20/+15
Attack with power attack: +16(BAB) +8(strength) +5(weapon) +1(weapon focus) -5(power attack) = +25/+20/+15/+10
Damage 2d6(weapon) + 5d6(elemental/holy) + 5(weapon enchant) +12(strength) = 41.5 damage, 46.3 damage with crits
Damage with power attack: 2d6(weapon) + 3d6(elemental) + 5(weapon enchant) +12(strength) +15(power attack) = 56.5 damage, 64.3 damage with crits
Divine Power gives you +5 to hit, +5 to damage, an extra attack(doesn't stack with haste), and can be quickened
Righteous might gives you +1 to hit(+2 from strength, -1 from size), +6.5 damage(+3 from strengh, +3.5 from larger weapon), and cannot be quickened.
If you buff...
Round 1 - Righteous Might + Quickened Shield of Faith + Move into Position
Round 2 - Quickened Divine Favor + Full attack
Spells per day: 4/6/5/5/5/4/3/3/2
For reference, the Cleric's spells would have a DC of 15 + spell level, and channeling for damage against undead would have a DC of 19. A level 16 wizard would have a DC of 20 + spell level on their favorite school of spells(assuming they took spell focus and greater spell focus).
Assuming you use the bead of karma when casting your long duration buffs
Gear 315,000 gp
Standard Strand of Prayer Beads - 45,800
Belt of Physical Might(Str/Con) +6 - 90,000
Circlet of Wisdom +6 - 36,000
+1 Flaming, Frost, Shock, Holy Greatsword(+5 with GMW cast on it) - 72,000
+1 Ghost Touch Full Plate(+5 with magic vestment cast on it) - 26,000
Amulet of Natural Armor +3 - 16,000
Cloak of Resistance +4 - 16,000
12,200 gold in misc items
Against a horned devil 35 AC, and DR of 10
Unbuffed DPR on a full attack without power attack - 65.82
Unbuffed DPR on a full attack with power attack - 48.27
Buffed DPR on a full attack with power attack - 177.31
A level 16 human Falchion fighter
Str 17 -> 26 at level 16(+3 level +6 magic item)
Dex 14 -> 20 at level 16(+6 magic item)
Con 13 -> 20 at level 16(+6 magic item)
Int 10
Wis 12
Chr 8
Feats(18) - Weapon Focus(Falchion), Weapon Spec(Falchion), Greater Weapon Focus(Falcion), Greater Weapon Spec(Falcion), Improved Critical(Falchion), Power Attack, Cleave, Lunge, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Imp Iron Will, Dodge, Disruptive, Step up, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Penetrating Strike, Greater Penetrating Strike
Weapon Training - Heavy Blades +3, Bows +2
Armor Training - +4 dex bonus, -4 armor check
HP - 165(average)
AC - 38
Touch AC - 20
Saves- Fort +19, Ref +16, Will +12(with reroll)
Attack: +16(BAB) +8(strength) +5(weapon) +2(weapon focus) +3(weapon training) = +34/+29/+24/+19
Attack with power attack: +16(BAB) +8(strength) +5(weapon) +2(weapon focus) +3(weapon training) -5(power attack) = +29/+24/+19/+14
Damage 2d6(weapon) + 5(weapon enchant) +3(Weapon Training) +12(strength) = 27 damage, 35.1 damage with crits
Damage with power attack: 2d6(weapon) + 5(weapon enchant) +3(weapon training) +12(strength) +15(power attack) = 42 damage, 54.6 damage with crits
Assuming you use the bead of karma when casting your long duration buffs
Gear 315,000 gp
Belt of Physical Perfection +6 - 144,000
+5 Falchion - 50,000
+5 Ghost Touch Full Plate - 64,000
Amulet of Natural Armor +4 - 32,000
Cloak of Resistance +4 - 16,000
Ring of Protection +4 - 32,000
41,000 gold in misc items
Against a horned devil 35 AC, and DR of 10
DPR on a full attack without power attack - 80.73
DPR on a full attack with power attack - 84.63
DPR on a full attack with power attack and haste - 136.5
A. Unbuffed, the fighter is putting out 50% more damage than the cleric. If the cleric spends a round buffing, they can put out twice as much damage as an unbuffed fighter, but it will take 2 full attacks before the cleric can make up the lost ground. Most combats only last 3-5 rounds, during which time you are lucky to get in 3 full attacks.
B. Fully buffed, the cleric is unable to take advantage of several buffs while the fighter can. Enlarge person, Haste, etc all have full effect on the fighter. Depending on group composition, the fighter can get a lot of buffs from the party.
C. The fighter is way more versatile. The fighter has the option of pulling out a bow and making ranged attacks for halfway decent damage. Having twice as many feats also makes the fighter a lot more customizable.
D. A Holy Warrior is very gimped at casting.
D1. A 20 wisdom only gives you 6 bonus spells and the DC on any offensive spell will be easy to overcome.
D2. You lose out on domain spells, which is where clerics get some of their more interesting wizard/sorc spells. Without domain spells, the basic cleric list is very dry.
D3. You could only have quickened divine power for 2 fights a day, after that you would be out of level 8 spells, and if you are using all your high level slots for quickened buffs, then you are missing out on a lot of other spells.
I don't know why some many people incorrectly assume that caster + full BAB = OP.
Because I've played high BAB/high caster level characters and know that they are extremely strong. Its takes a lot of resources to keep both the BAB and spellcasting high, but even with the resource dumps its well worth it. Having full BAB and full spellcasting for nothing is too much.
Theres a very good reason why the 3.5 char op board had about half its threads dedicated to high BAB/high caster level builds...
First, you can attack and cast spells at the same time without being high level and using quickened spells(which requires a feat).
And at lower levels the fighter just has a couple feats on you while you have several spells per day, so its a wash. At higher levels it becomes quite easy to cast and attack in the same round, and the high level spells will more than make up for the feats that a martial character has.
And its not necessary to cast and attack in the same round to take full advantage of full spellcasting; its the immense versatility that the spellcasting provides in addition to the martial abilities that makes the character overpowered, not that it can do as much damage in a full attack as a non-spellcaster.
The MAD(Multiple ability dependancy) and need for casting feats combined with a lack of bonus feats kills you in the end.
Not really. The holy warrior can go high str with wis as secondary stat. He obviously won't focus on direct attack spells with saving throws, although he can use them at times if he desires. Dex and Int are dump stats per normal for a cleric type. Hes basically shifting his Str, Wis and Con scores around. The holy warrior should typically focus on ability scores in the following order: Str, Wis, Con and Cha, Dex and Int. Most 'normal' clerics will go Wis first followed by Con or Cha or Str, so theres not a whole lot different there.
You have no charisma for channeling. Selective channeling feat is based on your charisma. With a 11-12 charisma you get 4-5 channels a day and you can exclude 1 or 2 targets. Having less spells makes you more reliant on channeling to heal, and since you do have the feats to spare for defensive casting, channel is your only in combat healing.
In combat healing is generally a poor use of actions anyways. Just ask Treantmonk.
A 'normal' combat oriented cleric isn't taking selective channeling anyways, and isn't channeling energy in combat to begin with. A holy warrior cleric certainly isn't doing this.
At higher levels the heal spell is readily available for healing, and is the only reliable in combat healing there is anyways, aside from the paladins swift action Lay on Hands. And with quicken spell, the holy warrior can pull this off anyways with lower level cure spells if he really wants to get some healing in, as he can spontaneously cast quickened cure spells.
No dex and no heavy armor profiency. This further hurts because reflex is your one weak save. Finally, you don't qualify for dodge, mobility, etc.
Again, no different from a normal cleric. An optimized holy warrior would take heavy armor proficiency anyways, as many normal clerics do already. Reflex is a dump save for clerics, as they will rely on resist energy, freedom of movement, and other magical protections. And why would the holy warrior want dodge or mobility in the first place?
The only drawback to low dex for the holy warrior is not being able to make use of Combat Reflexes effectively when Righteous Might'ing. But thats true for most combat clerics.
So you have to get some of the standard combat feats like weapon focus and power attack to keep up with the other warrior classes. Then you need channeling feats and casting feats as well.
Power Attack would be a definite. Weapon focus maybe but not necessarily so. Some casting feats yes (Combat Casting, extend spell, quicken spell). Channeling feats no way.
Theres a lot of ways the holy warrior can go with his feat choices. But Power Attack, Combat Casting, extend, and quicken are the key feats. After that, anything that ups his martial abilities is fair game. He can supplement his offense and defense with the myriad of spells at his fingertips, just like other clerics regularly do.
Personally I would add scribe scroll to the must have list of feats, but that might vary from person to person.
Finally, one good greater dispel magic, and all your rounds spend buffing go to waste.
True, but thats true of any caster class. But unlike any other caster class, the holy warrior can fall back on his full BAB and d10 HD. So unlike the normal battle cleric who gets dispelled and winds up with his 3/4 BAB, the holy warrior is still a capable combatant. (The 3.5 combat focused clerics relied heavily on Divine Power to be combat effective, as it gave them the BAB of a fighter. The PF holy warrior doesn't have to rely on Divine Power, as it now just gives him a huge boost to combat instead of just making him capable.)
Greater Dispel also won't drop his Magic Vestments or his Grtr Magic Weapon spells, so he'll still be armed withe powerful armor and weapons.
And due to the changes to the 3rd lvl dispel magic, that spell is no longer a real danger to the holy warrior, since he'd lose at most one spell.
*****
You DPR analysis is reasonable, and I commend you for that. But you are putting the fighter vs cleric in a situation clearly favorable to the fighter, i.e. being in a position to make a full attack. And against a high AC, high SR, high saving throw, melee combatant. I would hope that the fighter could hold his own in such a position. (You also overlook the horned devils regeneration, flight, and teleport abilities, which are difficult for the fighter to deal with but not much problem for the holy warrior.)
What you are overlooking is the immense versatility that the spellcasting can provide. That is the real strength of the spellcaster, and for the holy warrior it is backed up by his Full BAB. The holy warrior can have ready access to flight (e.g. Air Walk), escape (Word of Recall), spell resistance, energy resistance, freedom of movement, numerous defensive buffs, and some very potent offensive buffs, among other things. The fighter must rely on either magic items or the generosity of his party members. And both of those are as available to the holy warrior as they are to the fighter.
The only real difference between the two is the fighter has twice as many feats roughly, and the holy warrior has a butt load of powerful spells.
That, and the holy warrior has a significantly better will save.
Going back to your DPR example. The holy warrior can get into position to attack the horned devil with relative ease (air walk, freedom of movement). The fighter may very well struggle to even get into a position to attack depending on the terrain and location of the devil. That will affect DPR more than anything. What if they get severely injured? The holy warrior can heal himself. The fighter is calling for a medic.
The point is this: while unbuffed the holy warrior is no match for the fighter in damage output. Of course. But in most games, the holy warrior will have most or all of his buffs 90% of the time, and only very rarely will he be stripped of all of them. And even then, the holy warrior can call upon his spells to put him over the top. And if buffed, the holy warrior not only is a better combatant, but he still has spells he can call upon to give himself great advantages and protections. His spellcasting provides him with great versatility to meet various dangers, and he has the martial prowess to stand with other martial characters.
Its that versatility combined with marital prowess that makes the holy warrior variant too powerful.
I think it's important to point out that even with quickened spell, you still aren't wizarding it up quite like a, well, wizard.
Full BAB typically just fools the caster into doing something other then making the entire battle dance on his puppet strings.
Stuff about fight....
I just picked a random CR16 in the beastary to get an idea of typical AC and DR.
The other choices.
Planatar AC 32 DR 10/evil
Black/Brass Dragon(Ancient) AC 38 DR 15/magic
Also, the fighter has 40k gold left over in their cash for things like boots of flying.
The point is this: while unbuffed the holy warrior is no match for the fighter in damage output. Of course. But in most games, the holy warrior will have most or all of his buffs 90% of the time, and only very rarely will he be stripped of all of them. And even then, the holy warrior can call upon his spells to put him over the top. And if buffed, the holy warrior not only is a better combatant, but he still has spells he can call upon to give himself great advantages and protections. His spellcasting provides him with great versatility to meet various dangers, and he has the martial prowess to stand with other martial characters.
Its that versatility combined with marital prowess that makes the holy warrior variant too powerful.
So to address this. A couple of things you missed or ignored.
1. The basic cleric list is not nearly as good as the wizard list. That alone puts the cleric at 80% of a "real" caster. This is the major reason why cleric get to wear armor and have a medium BAB progression.2. Loss of domain spell really hurts the cleric's spell diversity, and costs you a spell per day of each level. At level 20, you just 9 spells dropping you to a total of 36 spells per day base. That is a net loss of 17-20% of your spells per day depending on your wisdom score.
3. Putting strength over wisdom in priority costs you 6 points if wisdom(drops you wisdom from a 26 to a 20). The loss is more if you get a hold of a wish(or any thing that grants an inherent bonus to stats), because you will wish for strength instead of wisdom. 6 points of wisdom may not seem like much, but but that is -3 to the DC of all spells, and you lose 1 bonus spell of every level except level 1 and 9. With a 26 wisdom, you get 48 spells per day as a level 20 holy warrior. Dropping to a 20 wisdom costs you 7 spells for a net loss of about 15%.
4. When you put 2 and 3 together, you have lost 33% of your total spells per day. A level 20 cleric with a 26 wisdom gets 57 spells per day. A level 20 holy warrior with a 20 wisdom gets 41 spells per day. Even more striking is the holy warrior is losing 1 9th level spell and 2 7th and 8 level spells each day. This is where you quickened buffs are coming from.
5. You get no bonus feats or other fighter benefits like access to fighter only feats. You may be able to keep up with a fighter by taking the right feats, but the fighter will be able to take utility feats like disruptive and step up while you are having to split all your feats between combat and casting just to stay effective.
6. You have to use your limited spells per day on buffs to be an effective fighter. Quickened Divine Power uses a level 8 spell slot, you if you are memorizing that, you are not memorizing: Earthquake, Firestorm, Holy Aura, Greater Spell Immunity, or Antimagic field. This only gets worse if your are using 3rd party spells sources like the spell compendium. Every buffing spell you take is another spell you are passing up, and when you have already lost a third of your spells per day, this becomes especially painful.
7. Notice that the fighter's AC is 5 higher that the clerics even when the cleric has Shield of Faith up? That is what happens when dex becomes a dump stat, and you don't take the dodge feat for a melee fighter.
8. Gear. I used every bit of money the cleric had to make an effective build. The fighter has 40k left for utility magic items to help cover his weaknesses.
Summary, Holy Warriors are giving up a third of their spells per day, and a good chunk of their spell selection for an extra 1 HP per level and +1 BAB every 4 levels. They can out damage a fighter with buffs up, but without buffs, the fighter will leave them in the dust.
Yes it is! Domains can be very nasty if you pick the right ones. I playd a version like that. And you stats must be all round good. You need now fair physical stats!
|
|
I personally wouldn't allow it, and I'm very lenient in what I allow in game.
Hmm, my first reply here had some sort of error, so here goes again.
This sentiment is actually surprising to me. I would actually think the cleric is maybe slightly gimping themselves by going the Holy Warrior route versus keeping their domain spells and slots. I'd ask a player "are you absolutely sure?" and remind them the flexibility they are losing.
I tend to look at classes at 1st-4th level and 5th-10th level since those are the 2 zones we play the most in, and I'd think most games are in these realms. To look at 20th level, its kind of a different universe.
At 1st level, say I wanted to roll up a cleric of Gorum (Strength, War domains). For "fluff" reasons I can see wanting to be a more physical interpretation of the deity, and consider the holy warrior variant. At 1st level specifically, I could actually pick up Weapon Focus when I normally could not since I'd have the +1 BAB to quality. This would take my odds from hitting a typical level 1 monster up about 6-8% depending on my stats. Being very generous, I now go from hitting say 5 out of 10 swings to 6 out of 10 swings. So for every 10 rounds of melee combat, I get an extra 2d6+6 damage in if I'm a crazy cleric wielding a Greatsword. Most clerics wouldn't see this much gain, they'd be in the 1d8+3 ballpark. I get 2 more HP to take a beating, too.
What did I give up at 1st? Well I gave up, forever, my access to Enlarge Person. I gave up the Strength Surge and Battle Rage abilities that were each usable probably 5-6 times a day.
I can totally see someone picking up the Holy Warrior variant, because as a player they enjoy the game more when they hit things versus cast a spell. Would I turn this player's choice down because he'd be too powerful? I really doubt it, he's no way as strong at combat as the pure Fighter or a Barbarian. His spells, he'd be likely to cast a Bless, which everyone would love, and maybe a Magic Weapon for himself, which you'd think the party might also be happy for. That's if he's not expending both of his meager 2 slots for CLW to keep the party moving.
Now I'll look at 8th, since that's where I tend to look for upper-mid level play.
The holy warrior has picked up +2 BAB over his regular counterpart and 9 HP.
His domain powers are actually pretty snazzy now. From War domain, his touch adds +4 damage and he can pick up any random combat feat from a book at will. From Strength, he can get a +4 on Strength checks, and give himself a +8 Strength for several rounds a day.
He's got access to Enlarge Person, is a level away from an extra Flame Strike or Righteous Might, and is a stone's throw away from Stoneskin.
Same deal, let's pick a foe that favors the melee type. Let's say he's squaring off with a CR10 fire giant with an AC23. We're talking a 52% versus 60% chance to connect for the 2 options (unbuffed). Either character can buff up to increase their chance to connect.
Beyond 8th, I'd think you'd totally beg your DM to drop the holy warrior variant, especially when a Cleric of Gorum realizes he could have had Stoneskin, Power Word Blind, Power Word Kill, Crushing Hand, Clenched Fist, etc.
In the DM seat I in no way see the +2 BAB and 9HP as "wow I better disallow that since it could unbalance my game".
Maybe that's because in general a "day of adventuring" in the games I'm used to, I see the spellcasting as the better boon than the extra ~4 connected hits a day for some amount of physical weapon damage. There's certainly games where if the average day is 250 rounds of combat versus 40-50 rounds, that you'd rather be a holy warrior. But in games like that, you'd probably want to be a straight rogue or fighter, and have a number of unhappy wizards, sorcerers, bards, and what-nots at your gaming table. You'd probably need a variant like this to even get a player to be willing to roll a cleric in a game like that (at low levels).
|
|
All the fighter talk is a distraction. The real question is whether it's better than the base cleric.
I don't play clerics much but based on the way my fellow gamers play this would be a no-brainer because they don't get a lot of mileage out of their domain abilities.
The extra BAB makes a pretty significant difference. It helps qualify for feats earlier and that extra +3-4 can make a huge difference on whether that second or third attack lands, in particular if you are using power attack on tough opponents.
The big ??? for me is how you value those domain powers. I just don't have a great handle on those.
|
|
I think all the fighter talk is a distraction. The real question is whether it's tougher than the base cleric.1 hp per level does not a unstoppable juggernaut make, and you are losing out on spell slots for things like spell resistance, resist elements, etc. Nevermind that you are losing domain abilities like no you can't stun/grapple/slow me down known as the freedom domain.
I edited my previous post while you were replying.
1hp isn't the issue, it's the 25% damage increase you noted. Anyhow, I don't really have a pony in this race, just wanted to repoint things where they belong, cleric v battle cleric. Cleric v. Fighter is a different question IMO.
All the fighter talk is a distraction. The real question is whether it's better than the base cleric.
The comparison to the fighter to just to give you a feel for a baseline of what another class can do at this level. I like to use fighter for comparison, because they can do that damage all day long without buffs or needing someone else in melee to flank for them.
I don't play clerics much but based on the way my fellow gamers play this would be a no-brainer because they don't get a lot of mileage out of their domain abilities.The extra BAB makes a pretty significant difference. It helps qualify for feats earlier and that extra +3-4 can make a huge difference on whether that second or third attack lands, in particular if you are using power attack on tough opponents.
The big ??? for me is how you value those domain powers. I just don't have a great handle on those.
Domain abilities are hit and miss. Some are borderline OP like freedom of movement that automatically takes effect whenever you need it, AKA liberation domain. Others like the strength domain give you no benefit in combat.
As a point of reference
Billy the battle cleric level 16 human.
Note: this is the exact same build as the Holy warrior I did earlier, but redone with a normal cleric.
Str 17 -> 26 at level 16(+3 level +6 magic item)
Dex 10
Con 13 -> 20 at level 16(+6 magic item)
Int 8
Wis 14 -> 20 at level 16(+6 from magic item)
Chr 12
Feats(9) - Weapon Focus(Great Sword), Power Attack, Heavy Armor Prof, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Improved Critical(Greatsword), Cleave, Lunge, Lightning Reflexes
HP - 149(average)
AC - 28(+4 with Shield of Faith)
Touch AC - 10(+4 with Shield of Faith, -2 with Righteous Might)
Saves- Fort +19, Ref +11, Will +19
Attack: +12(BAB) +8(strength) +5(weapon) +1(weapon focus)= +26/+21/+16/+11
Attack with power attack: +12(BAB) +8(strength) +5(weapon) +1(weapon focus) -4(power attack) = +21/+16/+11/+6
Damage 2d6(weapon) + 5d6(elemental/holy) + 5(weapon enchant) +12(strength) = 41.5 damage, 46.3 damage with crits
Damage with power attack: 2d6(weapon) + 3d6(elemental) + 5(weapon enchant) +12(strength) +12(power attack) = 53.5 damage, 60.7 damage with crits
Divine Power gives you +5 to hit, +5 to damage, an extra attack(doesn't stack with haste), and can be quickened
Righteous might gives you +1 to hit(+2 from strength, -1 from size), +6.5 damage(+3 from strengh, +3.5 from larger weapon), and cannot be quickened.
If you buff...
Round 1 - Righteous Might + Quickened Shield of Faith + Move into Position
Round 2 - Quickened Divine Favor + Full attack
Spells per day: 4/7/6/6/6/5/4/4/3
Assuming you use the bead of karma when casting your long duration buffs
Gear 315,000 gp
Standard Strand of Prayer Beads - 45,800
Belt of Physical Might(Str/Con) +6 - 90,000
Circlet of Wisdom +6 - 36,000
+1 Flaming, Frost, Shock, Holy Greatsword(+5 with GMW cast on it) - 72,000
+1 Ghost Touch Full Plate(+5 with magic vestment cast on it) - 26,000
Amulet of Natural Armor +3 - 16,000
Cloak of Resistance +4 - 16,000
12,200 gold in misc items
Against a horned devil 35 AC, and DR of 10
Unbuffed DPR on a full attack without power attack - 50.93
Unbuffed DPR on a full attack with power attack - 39.46
Buffed DPR on a full attack with power attack - 141.55
Even a normal cleric who is fully buffed leaves the unbuffed fighter in the dust.
Compared to a normal cleric, the Holy warrior gains 1 hp per level and does about 25-30% more damage.
|
|
The big ??? for me is how you value those domain powers. I just don't have a great handle on those.
This totally depends on the domain.
At low levels, there's some tasty reasons to have a domain. The ranged touch attack of Water, Air, Fire, Storm domains has been meaningful in fights with opponents with a high AC. The 1st level holy warrior without domain access will be sad, even with the extra +1 BAB when he's missing the Hobgoblin Captain with a 23AC when instead he could've been hitting 13AC from afar.
The Travel domain and its extra 10 feet of movement is often viewed upon by all non-Barbarians with jealous eyes.
A lot of the power is in access to spells. A 1st level cleric who has access to Lesser Confusion, Enlarge Person, Entangle, True Strike, Burning Hands looks and feels "more powerful" to the group when the spells come out. By giving up the domains, you actually lose a lot of the interesting wizard/druid/bard spells you might get.
This gets especially true at higher levels, when a Cleric could have picked up Fire Shield, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, Power Word Kill, Wall of Fire, Disintegrate, Stoneskin, etc.
Like I posted earlier, in a player's shoes I'd be fairly torn as a Cleric of Sarenrae if I'd want the option. The Fire domain is very tasty, but I'd also be tempted by a slight boost to my scimitar wielding mojo. The good news is in allowing the variant, you enable multiple interpretations of a Cleric of Sarenrae.
A Cleric of Shelyn, I couldn't imagine picking up the variant. The Air and Luck domains are outstanding.
A Cleric of Abadar, same deal - Earth and Travel are hard choices given how great the domains are.
I was more struck by the martial gods where you most likely would consider the variant as thematically appropriate - Gorum, Iomedae, etc. Clerics of Gorum are kind of brutal, and clerics of Iomedae feel like a paladin. There's obviously clerics who worship both, and the feeling of the effective benefit of the War domain, for example, feels comparable. I'd almost wager to say Paizo printed the Pathfinder Setting variant specifically targeting gods with War, Strength, etc in their portfolio.
If you want a reference of some of the better domains.
Trickery- Bluff, Disguise, Stealth as class skills, Create a single mirror image as a move action, and veil for one round/level.
Travel- +10 movement, can ignore difficult terrain, dimension door as a move action.
Liberation- Freedom of Movement for level rounds per day, this automatically applies when you need it. Make every ally within 30 feet immune to confused, grappled, frightened, panicked, paralyzed, pinned, or shaken conditions for 1 round/level/day as a standard action.
Luck domain - You can reroll any roll once per day per 6 levels.
Knowledge domain - All knowledge skills as class skills. Touch a creature and learn all about it, clairaudience/clairvoyance at will.
Healing domain - All Healing spells are empowered for free.
Artifice domain - Give your weapon the dancing quality several times per day.
Elemental domains give you resistance/immunity to a single element.
Then you add on the extra spell selection the domains give you. Trickery gives you several forms of invisibility and time stop. Fire domain gives you several of the better wizard fire spells.
Bad domains, clerics of Gorum have it hard, Destruction, Strength, and War are probably 3 of the worst domains out there. Strength and War domains have abilities that are only good for buffing other people(requires a standard action to use and only lasts 1 round). The destruction aura looks awesome until you realize that is effects everyone, friend or foe. Yes, I want to give all my enemies +half my level to damage, and auto confirm threats.
Yeah, it's balanced. They're sacrificing spell power and special abilities for +1 hp/lvl and the next tier of BAB. Now the BAB thing might be an issue if you take spell buffs into consideration but there's a flaw to that logic (and has been since 3.5): How often are you going to be able to buff yourself to those monstrous capabilities before combat?
If you're lucky you might get one round to prep before combat, occasionally you might get thrown a bone where you can prep to your hearts desire but that is typically the exception rather than the rule. This usually means that if you actually want to contribute to the combat you *might* be able to get in three buff spells before it's time to start hurting things. Enemy casters? They spy someone casting their mighty magics to make them hurt things more should be considering a Dispell Magic pretty quickly which can even the odds.
That alone, in my not-so-humble-opinion, makes them no where near as good as full on fighters or paladins. Especially if the enemies are evil, then the paladin will chew them up and spit them out before the Cleric has buffed himself to being able to do non-crap damage.
My two bits.
I must admit to some confusion: Isn't the campaign setting 3.5 material? So the alternate features and whatnot are balanced for 3.5 classes and not the Pathfinder versions?
Yes, the CS is 3.5, but PF is supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5 material.
The question is whether the Holy Warrior option is balanced in PF. When you factor in that most domains got buffed in PF, Holy Warrior is probably more balanced in PF than it was in 3.5.
|
|
I can't see any reason why it would be less balanced under Pathfinder. Are the cleric's domain powers notably weaker? Is there some greater benefit to high BAB? If anything the loss of heavy armor might make this slightly less powerful.
Under 3.5 I thought this was a bit much because it overshadowed the paladin and fighter a LOT. Under Pathfinder? It's a lot tougher call. Paladin and fighter got some nice buffs and are both pretty solid.
I can't see any reason why it would be less balanced under Pathfinder. Are the cleric's domain powers notably weaker? Is there some greater benefit to high BAB? If anything the loss of heavy armor might make this slightly less powerful.
Under 3.5 I thought this was a bit much because it overshadowed the paladin and fighter a LOT. Under Pathfinder? It's a lot tougher call. Paladin and fighter got some nice buffs and are both pretty solid.
Don't forget that every domain in PF got a second domain power that kicks in at level 6-8. For most domains this was a buff.
Have you guys even played at high levels? Not to sound condescending, but you seem to really be underestimating the capabilities of higher level spell casting.
Lets put it this way: Take away a normal clerics domains, and even give him a 1/2 BAB, and he is still a capable character.
Give him the full BAB and he will dominate a party.
Hell, I've seen battle clerics without the full BAB dominate a party. I've played them. (cleric/fist of raziel and the dragonlance Righteous Cohort of Kiri-Jolith) Even without the full BAB, these characters were the strongest in their party in most situations.
Its the ability to move between being a spellcaster and a martial character with such ease that makes this too much. The holy warrior does not approach every encounter with the attitude of "I have to put up all my buff spells before I fight!" (For many fights he won't need any single encounter buffs.) He has choices, and lots of them. If the situation calls for him to be a martial warrior, then he can do that quite well. If it calls for him to boost his allies with defenses or buffs, he can do that too. If it calls for healing, he can provide that. He can provide battlefield control and tactical movement buffs. He can even blast if need be.
The DPR examples don't come anywhere near describing what this character is capable of. It doesn't factor in many of the holy warriors (or any clerics) capabilities. How do you factor in access to powerful Spell Resistance? Death Ward? Freedom of Movement? Air Walk? Summoning spells? Holy Word? It also fails to consider that the holy warrior has access to all of the cleric spells, and can switch them out from day to day. With scribe scroll he can have many of them at the ready as well.
The DPR examples also are stuck using a point buy system, which many people don't use. The higher point buy or a rolled system of stat generation will result in a much stronger holy warrior. I'd also point out that the holy warrior needn't put all of his ability boosts into Str. He'd put his highest into Str, but once he reaches 18-20 base Str that is sufficient. The rest go into wisdom.
The DPR examples also focus almost all the characters magic items on damage output, which would result in serious problems for a character in actual game play. (the holy warrior would undoubtedly have at least one metamagic rod of extend, and if he could buy whatever he wanted he'd probably have more than one.)
Would you put up a straight fighter with a straight wizard in a DPR comparison and conclude the fighter is stronger? Same issues here. The holy warrior CAN if need be become a strong DPR combatant, but thats by no means his only schtick. For the fighter, its all hes got.
I'm not going to knock anybody who wants to play the holy warrior. Give it a shot. But I'm telling you that the character, if played right, will overshadow the rest of his party (unless there is a druid in there). CoDzilla means something for a reason. The holy warrior will make any martial character feel like a second class citizen, as the holy warrior will hold his own in a fight, but will also be doing so much more.
(Also, if you open up access to all the 3.5 books then the holy warrior becomes significantly more powerful. There are several feats that can greatly help him out, and having access to all those fancy cleric spells gives him an incredible power boost.)
Another factor that hasn't been addressed is using the holy warrior in a multiclass build. It allows for a martial character to make a dip into cleric without sacrificing anything, or the holy warrior can dip into marital classes to pick up some additional melee capabilities at the cost of some spellcasting.
There aren't any PF Prestige classes that would get much benefit from a holy warrior, but there definitely are some 3.5 PRCs that would be downright sick with a holy warrior.
|
|
Your post doesn't even really talk about the bigger issue. Is this more powerful than the core cleric? You don't even look at domain abilities lost just rant about how over crazy powerful it is.
My feeling is the core cleric is still the most powerful character (or close to it) class in the game. Comparing it to the fighter in melee doesn't say a lot to me. You seem so excited about high level well how does this compare to not being able to cast time stop once per day? Confusion, Invisibility? Or grasping hand?
To me that's some pretty big stuff to be giving up in exchange for a bit more damage output. For example at 18th level the cleric with the trickery domain is going to have 2-5 rounds to buff and summon versus the single round of buffing the battle cleric has. That's pretty huge to me.
BAB is pretty sweet and I've even expressed concerns about it above but it's only half of the trade. If you don't look at what they are giving up you are completely missing the point.
Your post doesn't even really talk about the bigger issue. Is this more powerful than the core cleric? You don't even look at domain abilities lost just rant about how over crazy powerful it is.
My feeling is the core cleric is still the most powerful character (or close to it) class in the game. Comparing it to the fighter in melee doesn't say a lot to me. You seem so excited about high level well how does this compare to not being able to cast time stop once per day? Confusion, Invisibility? Or grasping hand?
To me that's some pretty big stuff to be giving up in exchange for a bit more damage output. For example at 18th level the cleric with the trickery domain is going to have 2-5 rounds to buff and summon versus the single round of buffing the battle cleric has. That's pretty huge to me.
BAB is pretty sweet and I've even expressed concerns about it above but it's only half of the trade. If you don't look at what they are giving up you are completely missing the point.
It depends.
If trying to make a battle cleric vs a holy warrior, then holy warrior wins hands down.
If trying to make a casting cleric vs a holy warrior, then caster will win most of the time, but against magic resistant opponents holy warrior can rely on his martial abilities.
Yes, the loss of domains is painful. But Full BAB is a big benefit. And aside from the combat boost, it opens up access to feats and PRCs that would normally be well down the road. (e.g. an archer holy warrior getting access to Imp Precise Shot at 11th level as opposed to 15th for a normal cleric.)
And I'd resent the claim that I'm "rant(ing) about how over crazy powerful it is." I'm presenting information based on my experience with seeing battle clerics in play, and I'm saying that those characters overshadow most parties anyways. Give him full BAB and take away some of his spellcasting and it helps him more than it hurts him. (Note that many of the stronger battle cleric builds actually lose some spellcasting LEVELS due to PRCs). Do with it what you will, but please do not present me as foaming at the mouth over this.
|
|
I've only really seen comments so far "Having a full BAB is really powerful". I'd love some anecdotes to understand better what that means. Obviously, someone taking 3.5e (not Pathfinder) Fist of Raziel is going to be pretty elite, since that prestige class alone is very very powerful...
I'll ask two separate questions about the holy warrior variant:
(1) Is it "more powerful" than a regular cleric at levels 1-10?
(2) Is it "more powerful" than a regular cleric at levels 11+?
To me, the domain spell lists are one of the things that makes a cleric potentially interesting to play. Giving that up is giving up one of the classes best perks, moreso at mid-to-higher than lower levels.
I'd really consider giving them Heavy Armor proficiency as was already mentioned in errata to "buff them up". So the mentality of "wouldn't allow the variant" is shocking.
In our games, a cleric who wades into melee - that's usually trouble for the party if there's not someone else who can heal since the BBEGs tend to like hurt those holy types. I guess I'm just not used to seeing level 10+ encounters which would be tipped in party favor if the cleric had a 10% better chance to hit, but I am used to seeing them tip in the party favor when the Cleric of Sarenrae casts Fire Wall or Fire Shield.
I can imagine at my table, somewhere around 9th level, the Fighter player saying "hey Cleric, I saw that fight you hit one more time than usual and did 15 damage to that CR11 creature that had 150HP. Nice job."
It would have been far more epic for that same encounter for him to say "wow that Firewall dropped right on the whole line of CR11 creatures, that was insane, how did you do that, I didn't know a cleric could cast that" and be much more jealous.
We talk about flexibility being a huge advantage. To me the domains are more flexible than BAB. BAB can be augmented with spells. But extra spells can be used for so much more than BAB, whereas the holy warrior cleric can't ask for a refund for his extra BAB in encounters or puzzles where that extra BAB has zero value.
To sum up my earlier number crunching.
Gain 1 hp/level, roughly 20-30% increase in melee/ranged damage.
Lose 4 domain powers, domain spell selection, and 16% decrease in total spells per day.
|
|
At low levels it is a far better cleric; melée and especially melée clerics rule the world here.
At about 8-12 they are equal; the domain secondaries kick in, and holy warrior misses his extra spells per day.
At 13 and up, any melée with a straight caster involves expecting a long day and being in a compatively easy fight. Here you start wishing all those melée feats were metamagic feats.
So I think it's fine; this is almost the exact same progression you see in melée Druids vs caster druids.
I had a long post with a level 16 druid, but the post monster ate it. A melee focused druid + pet were clocking in at around 120-130 DPR against a horned devil. That was without the need to spend a round buffing.
A wild shaped druid with just greater magic fang + animal companion will put out close to the same damage as a fully buffed holy warrior cleric in most situations, and the druid has a lot more versatility.
|
|
It depends.
If trying to make a battle cleric vs a holy warrior, then holy warrior wins hands down.
If trying to make a casting cleric vs a holy warrior, then caster will win most of the time, but against magic resistant opponents holy warrior can rely on his martial abilities.
Isn't the point of the holy warrior cleric though? The fact that it's better in melee doesn't mean it's more powerful than the base cleric. It's a trade, you sacrifice casting power to be better in melee. Is that a fair exchange?
As Charender says, trade 20-30% melee damage versus 16% of casting power and the domain powers. Add to that the fact that many of the domain powers are things outside the clerics normal spell list like time stop and it's a pretty powerful thing to give up.
It depends.If trying to make a battle cleric vs a holy warrior, then holy warrior wins hands down.
If trying to make a casting cleric vs a holy warrior, then caster will win most of the time, but against magic resistant opponents holy warrior can rely on his martial abilities.
Yes, the loss of domains is painful. But Full BAB is a big benefit. And aside from the combat boost, it opens up access to feats and PRCs that would normally be well down the road. (e.g. an archer holy warrior getting access to Imp Precise Shot at 11th level as opposed to 15th for a normal cleric.)
And I'd resent the claim that I'm "rant(ing) about how over crazy powerful it is." I'm presenting information based on my experience with seeing battle clerics in play, and I'm saying that those characters overshadow most parties anyways. Give him full BAB and take away some of his spellcasting and it helps him more than it hurts him. (Note that many of the stronger battle cleric builds actually lose some...
At level 6, my Holy Warrior Cleric is overshadowing both the party fighter and barbarian, without casting a single spell. The thing is that if I had been playing a straight fighter, it would have been worse. This has nothing to do with class mechanics, because I was essentially fighting as a level 6 warrior.
The problem is this....
-The fighter is doing dual wield sword and board build, and at level 6 his feat focus is scattered all over the place making him completely gimp. By level 10, he will pass me in damage, and have much better AC.
-The barbarian player has not tried to optimize his damage at all. Hell, half the time he uses his bite attack(for 1d4+ half strength) instead of his greatsword(2d6+1.5 strength).
Anecdotes about classes dominating only tell half the story. Maybe the battle cleric is dominating in combat because they are just better at min-maxing than the other players.
I can take a wizard and optimize it for archery, and I can probably out damage a fighter who isn't optimized for archery....
Wait.
Who the hell would ever dip into cleric and then throw away their domain abilities?!
That's the entire reason you dip into cleric!
Domains are powerful. INTENSELY powerful. And grabbing high BAB isn't difficult for a cleric to do. This alternate ability is more or less "Throw away your awesome domains so you can pretend you're a fighter!"
|
|
At low levels it is a far better cleric; melée and especially melée clerics rule the world here.
Maybe it's the adventures I'm playing in (Paizo ones), but they're pretty well balanced for everyone to shine.
I've seen so many cases now the domain ability useful at level 1 & 2. Its the encounters we're seeing at the table where there's *always* a bad guy armored up to AC22+ at level 1. The super-optimized melee DPS runs in with a +6 hit (+4 Str/Dex, +1 Weap Focus, +1 BAB) and connects when they roll 16+. The holy warrior cleric (if he were there), I pray they stopped at a 16 Str, and is maybe hitting with rolls of 17+. If they're lucky a bard plays a tune or someone casts Bless. Now they're hitting 14-15+ but they are still missing 75% of swings.
Now the domain cleric stands and fires off 3 ranged touch attacks and does the bulk of the damage since they are typically only trying to hit AC12.
I've seen the domain cleric cast Enlarge Person in 2 encounters in a day, where the 2sq x 2sq "tank" (in one case the cleric themselves) completely changes the tactical lay of the encounter with reach.
I've seen the domain cleric of Erastil cast Entangle and dramatically change 2 fights in ways a holy warrior cleric with an extra BAB and a melee feat couldn't dream of.
Especially clerics who pick up Scribe Scroll at 1st, and have 2-3 copies of their domain spells purchased with 33g from their starting pool. The holy warrior cleric can pick up Scribe as well at 1st (plus something else if human), but they're left scribing Magic Weapon, Divine Favor or Bless as their signature abilities. Which when it comes down to it, really aren't going to change an encounter dramatically if they even went that route.
I haven't had a holy warrior cleric in a game I've run, and haven't sat behind playing one yet. I'm definitely curious, and I think only actual play will crystallize it's pros and cons - that's the main reason for my original post.
It would be interesting what comes out in Paizo's Advanced Player Guide for the core classes. Maybe if there was an alternate domain for Gorum, or a "Battle" domain, DMs would fear the domain more than the BAB? It does strike me as odd that Clerics of Desna, Shelyn, Besmara, etc all seem to do better in combat via domain abilities than Gorum. There seems to be a definite shortage of Gorum clerics among Pathfinder games...
stuff...
It would be interesting what comes out in Paizo's Advanced Player Guide for the core classes. Maybe if there was an alternate domain for Gorum, or a "Battle" domain, DMs would fear the domain more than the BAB? It does strike me as odd that Clerics of Desna, Shelyn, Besmara, etc all seem to do better in combat via domain abilities than Gorum. There seems to be a definite shortage of Gorum clerics among Pathfinder games...
The domains of Gorum are why I went with a the holy warrior option.
Gorum gets Chaos, Destruction, Glory, Strength, and War domains.Chaos domain - very lackluster
Chaos touch - use a standard action to force target to roll 2 d20 and use the worst of the 2 rolls. If I am using this ability I can't make attacks.
Chaos Blade - Standard action to duplicates the effect of anarchic weapon enchant. There are other ways to get the same ability if I really want it
Chaos Spells are all chaos limited versions of normal cleric spells.
Destruction Almost the best domain out there, but instead it is the worst.
Destructive smite - nice ability, but cannot be used with a full attack action, so once you get +6 BAB, you will use this less and less
Aura of destruction - +half your level to all damage rolls against every one within 30 feet and auto confirm threats. Awesome ability, except it also effects you and all your allies which make this possibly the worst domain ability out there.
Destruction spells - The first 3 levels are nice, but everything else is a standard cleric spell.
Glory Domain, decent domain, but not very fitting for Gorum IMO
+2 DC on the saves of undead against your channeling damage, not bad.
Touch of Glory - +cleric level to a single charisma based check lasts up to an hour. A really night non-combat ability.
Divine Presence - An AoE group sanctuary, could this ability be anymore anti-Gorum?
Glory spells are all standard cleric spells, woo I get another shield of faith!
Strength Domain - PF went out of their way to make sure none of the strength domain abilities are useful in combat anymore.
Strength Surge - A standard action to give an enhancement bonus equal to half your level for 1 round. Hmm, can't use it on yourself then attack , and it doesn't stack with the 2 most common sources of strength buffs belt of strength and bull's strength. Major suckage.
Might of the Gods - Add your level to you strength for level rounds a day, awesome. Can only be used for strength and strength based skill checks(IE can't be used for attack and damage rolls), suck.
Strength spells - enlarge person, stoneskin, and 3 of the bibgy's hand spells, good overall
War domain - Not a bad domain, but there are much better domains out there
Battle rage - Standard action to add half your level to damage rolls for 1 round. Suffers from the same flaw as strength domain, you cannot use it on yourself.
Weapon master - you gain a combat feat for cleric levels per day. This would be a great ability except that you must meet the prerequisites for this feat.
War spells - you get access to the power word spells at high levels.
The domain choices for a cleric of Gorum suck so bad that the Holy Warrior option is almost a no brainer. If I couldn't play a Holy Warrior, then I would pick another diety, pure and simple.
Also worth noting. The Holy Warrior gives you profiency with your diety's favored weapon in addition to the other benefits. This benefit is now part of the standard cleric in PF.
Having played a holy warrior of Sarenrae, I was very unimpressed with the domain powers and it made it easy to take Holy Warrior. Frankly I think 50% of the domains are lame and not worth much, so trading them for full BAB is nice.
However, BAB isn't everything any more. Squealing that full BAB unbalances the cleric disregards other enhancements esp. to fighters in PFRPG. It's a perfectly acceptable build and wasn't unbalanced up to level 14 when we did it, even with a dip into a level of Crusader (book of nine swords) to try to enhance melee.