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I have in my group a 7th level sorcerer with the arcane bloodline. This grant him the Arcane Bond as per the wizard class ability. For the bond, he has chosen a ring. Now, after reading about item creation, we came to the conclusion that anything he puts on his ring costs 150% of normal cost, as it is a space (slot) occupying magic item. However, he gets a 30% deduction of total cost, as the ring, being a bonded object, only works for him. He sat down and decided that he could pay to have polymorth self cast by someone (or use a scroll) and make it continuous/command activated. polymorph is a level 5 spell. Is this possible? He can add an ability to his ring that he can't even cast for three levels? Assume money is not a big part of the equation. I just want to know if it's legit that a 7th level sorc can go Wonder Twin on me whenever he wants.
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By the magic item crafting table in the back, and assuming it's a level 5 spell cast at caster level 7... it's going to cost 70,000gp to add. Not including your house-ruled 150%, which more than makes up for leaving out the 30%.
Counting those two values in it's a total of 73,500gp.
Does your level 7 sorcerer have that much gold?
Yeah, if you're allowing item crafting feats, it's totally legit... but the cost is much more limiting than the rules in this case.
Now, after reading about item creation, we came to the conclusion that anything he puts on his ring costs 150% of normal cost, as it is a space (slot) occupying magic item.
No, no, no. Why do you think that?
Is it this from the book:
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
If it is, note that this is for putting multiple powers on one item, like a Ring of Invisibility and Regeneration. Note that it says "each additional power has a 50% price increase". Never the first power, or only power.
Consider a ring of protection +1. The chart says very specifically that it costs the bonus ^2 x 2000 gold. Now that is a ring that occupies an item slot, just like your wizard's bonded ring does. But if you look up the price for a +1 ring of protection, you will see that it is 2,000 gp. If they had to pay 50% markup, it would have been 3,000 gp but it is not.
So, no markup.
However, he gets a 30% deduction of total cost, as the ring, being a bonded object, only works for him.
Quite fair, though I don't think this was meant to apply in this case, but the RAW certainly does seem to allow for this limitation.
He sat down and decided that he could pay to have polymorth self cast by someone (or use a scroll) and make it continuous/command activated. polymorph is a level 5 spell. Is this possible?
Yes. The crafter of the item doesn't need to be the guy who casts the spell. So convincing someone else to do it for him, or paying someone else, is entirely allowed within the rules.
He can add an ability to his ring that he can't even cast for three levels?
Yep.
Assume money is not a big part of the equation. I just want to know if it's legit that a 7th level sorc can go Wonder Twin on me whenever he wants.
Yes indeed. But let's do the math:
You can set the Caster Level to be whatever you want, but it has to be at least 9 (if the guy who helps is a wizard) or 10 (if the helper is a sorcerer). If the helper is higher level, then the Caster Level can be higher, but no higher than the level of the helper. A higher caster level increases the price, but it also increases the duration of the Polymorph (1 minute per Caster Level). Probably not worth the price increase, so let's hire a 9th level wizard (or a higher level wizard but tell him to cast it at 9th level).
This is a Use-activated item without charges, so the base cost is:
Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000 = 5 x 9 x 2,000 = 90,000 base price
Now we apply that 30% discount for a base price of 63,000 gp
That is the Base Price, or in other words, the price you would have to pay to buy it in a store. But when you craft an item, you pay half the base price in material costs.
So the cost to craft this magic ring is 31,500 GP.
But that cost assumes you cast the Polymorph spell yourself. But your sorcerer here is going to have to hire someone to cast it for him. Once per day. How many days? The time to craft an item is equal to 1 day for every 1,000 GP of the Base Price. This means 63 days to create this ring. And it means paying for 63 casts of that Polymorph spell.
How much does that cost?
The book says: Caster level × spell level × 10 gp = 9 x 5 x 10 = 450 gp per day. Multiply that by 63 and you get a cost of 28,350. Add that to the cost of creating the item and the final cost is .
So, for the low, low price of 59,850 gp, your sorcerer can have a bonded ring that has unlimited charges of Polymorph that lasts for 9 minutes each time it is used.
That's a whole lotta cabbage right there.
(Oh, I noticed that you said "Polymorph Self" but there is no such spell. This will be "Polymorph" which will allow the sorcerer to cast it on any willing target by touch. He could polymorph everyone in the adventuring group with this ring. It's important to realize that distinction.)
Now, the Pathfinder Character Wealth by Level chart says a 7th level character should probably be between 23,500 gp and 33,000 gp in Total Wealth. That should include potions, scrolls, whatever magic items this character has, whatever gold this character has, his home if he bought a house or something, whatever. Add up everything he owns and it should be between those values.
Note, I say should. What you and your players do in your campaigns is entirely up to you, of course. I'm just quoting the book here.
So, could a normal 7th level character afford such a ring? Clearly not. Usually by that time they have stuff like a +1 ring of protection, +2 cloak of resistance, Circlet of +2 INT, maybe a pearl of power or two, maybe a couple wands, etc. They might only have 5,000 or maybe 10,000 to spend on such a thing. Even if they sell all their stuff (at half price, per the book) they end up with about 15,000-20,000 gold. Nowhere near enough to craft that ring.
Heck, even if this sorcerer never found any magic items, he just found gold. Since level 1, nothing but gold. And now he has a pile of 33,500 gold in his livingroom because he never spent even a single piece of gold, he still couldn't afford that ring.
I mention all this (I know you said to imagine that money is not a big part of the equation) because I want you to see that the rules allow him to make the ring, with help. But the normal restriction is that it costs way more than he could ever afford.
In other words, the ring is perfectly legal by game rules, but affording it impossible at level 7 if we follow the wealth expectations that these rules were designed for.
If by chance your sorcerer in this game is enormously wealthy, then there really isn't anything to stop him from making this item.
Please note that the sorcerer doesn't need to have the spell cast. He can instead take a +5 DC for crafting the item for not having the spell.
Please note that the sorcerer doesn't need to have the spell cast. He can instead take a +5 DC for crafting the item for not having the spell.
Oh, well, there is that. Kinda slipped my mind because we don't play with that rule - the feat and the spell are mandatory here (yes, that's a houserule). I think it's rather lame that a 5th level wizard with the right feats can make a hat of wishes. All he needs is someone rich enough to pay for it up front, then he can make TWO of them, since they cost half price, one for the rich guy and one for himself. Then go off and find another rich guy. Infinite hats of wishes, all at level 5.
So, using this rule that, lame as it is, it's actually RAW, the DC for the sorcerer to make his ring is a 19. Assuming he didn't have much in his INT, his Spellcraft is likely to be somewhere around 10. Maybe a point or two higher, or more if he took Magical Affinity or Skill Focus (Spellcraft).
Needing a 19 on a d20+10 is a bit of a gamble. If he rolls an 8 or less, he just threw away 31,500 gold for nothing. Worse, if he rolls a 3 or less he has cursed his bonded item!
Of course, he could take 10 on this roll. That is also allowed by RAW, and is also another lame rule when it comes to magic item crafting. In my example, the sorcerer might have a 40% chance to fail ROLLING THE DICE if he makes his ring without the Polymorph spell. On the other hand, he has no chance to fail at all if he doesn't roll any dice at all. I hate that. In a game with dice, choosing not to roll the dice should make things riskier, not safer.
Imagine if every fighter could say "Oh, well, I need to roll a 9 to hit this moster? I cold miss if I roll an 8 or less? Well, now, I think I will just take-10 and make sure I never ever miss." Where's the fun in that? Where's the game in that?
But, yes, RAW allows it.
So if your sorcerer actually put 7 ranks into Spellcraft, counting his +3 Class-Skill bonus, as long as he has an INT of 8 or higher, he can automatically make this magic ring with no chance of failure and without ever casting Polymorph, simply by Taking-10 on his Spellcraft roll, and it will only cost him the raw materials for 31,500 gp.
DM_Blake, you're forgetting the *2 to cost for making a continual effect out of a 1 min/lvl spell.
No, I didn't forget that. I very nearly included it, in fact, until I realized that it doesn't apply here.
The ring, at least the way I described it, is not a "Continual Effect". In order to be that, the sorcerer could just use it one time and stay in his polymorphed form as long as he wants to - forever if that's what he wants.
The ring I described is "Use Activated" which is quite different than "Continuous". In this case, the Polymorph only lasts for 9 minutes each time he uses it. When it wears off, he can use it again immediately, but it will wear off after 9 minutes.
Now, after reading about item creation, we came to the conclusion that anything he puts on his ring costs 150% of normal cost, as it is a space (slot) occupying magic item.
No, additional affects cost 50% more on slot spots. Non-slot cost 200%.
However, he gets a 30% deduction of total cost, as the ring, being a bonded object, only works for him.
Bull. The "30% deduction" concept is for designing and pricing new magic items, that relate to a class/alignment, etc. Think Holy Avenger, or Robe of the Archmagi.
His bonded item *already* only works for him - he doesn't get a discount on crafting something generic into it that, no matter how many "restrictions" he adds. If he wants to forge a ring like that (and you feel like allowing it), he can take Forge Ring.
Other than that, the logic of using another caster to help is fine (and as pointed out, not strictly necessary). The 90k price DM_Blake listed is accurate by the formulas, but the actual price is entirely up to you.
As for what it does, in general I restrict the at-will pricing to 5/day (which is entirely equal in price), for effects/spells that are likely to be used repeatedly for very good effect. In this case, I actually would probably be fine with at-will - Polymorph is useful, but it's not like an at-will cure item or fireballs.
However, if he wants to use it as a continuous effect (staying polymorphed for hours at a time while flying for instance), he would probably have to pay for continuous. While polymorphed, the ring usually disappears (becomes part of his form), and cannot be activated. Also, in character remembering to reactivate (if he somehow could), would get ridiculous. Try setting a 9-minute alarm (like snooze on an alarm clock) and try to remember to reset it every 9 minutes (before it goes off).
I'm *all* for using formulas to derive things, but when it comes to magic items you very often need to say "no", or "not quite".
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Unless I misread the posts, I think I'm confused. Where is this 30% reduction coming from?
An arcane bond object can be enhanced by the wizard (or sorcerer) as if he had the appropriate feats. So, in this case, the sorcerer would be treated as if he had the Forge Ring feat. This means he can enhance his ring for 50% of the cost to buy a similar ring.
Also, as others have said, there is no reason for the 150% increase, since all arcane bond objects are only able to be used by their creator.
Unless I misread the posts, I think I'm confused. Where is this 30% reduction coming from?
An arcane bond object can be enhanced by the wizard (or sorcerer) as if he had the appropriate feats. So, in this case, the sorcerer would be treated as if he had the Forge Ring feat. This means he can enhance his ring for 50% of the cost to buy a similar ring.
Also, as others have said, there is no reason for the 150% increase, since all arcane bond objects are only able to be used by their creator.
The OP replied that he was giving the 30% reduction for the "Useable by only one class (Wizard)" reason (which is in the RAW) because this bonded item can only be used by the wizard who creates it. This might be a fairly loose interpretation, but houserule or RAW, that was the OP's stipulation.
And he just posted that the Ring has other powers on it, so the 50% price increaes is applied for that reason.
I would like to add that according to the most high game designers (blessings of the d20 be upon them), discounts apply only to the market price, not the creation costs.
That is all.
I would like to add that according to the most high game designers (blessings of the d20 be upon them), discounts apply only to the market price, not the creation costs.
Hah! Like I'm going to listen to a high game designer. Or anyone else who's high. Especially the most high...
He'd probably just tell me to run to the store and buy him some Cheetos.
Cheetos are sooooooo 2009. Doritos are munchies of choice these days.
Mmmmmmmmmmm Doritos....
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Well... legit depends on you. If you choose to allow him to make custom items, which you don't, then he could make that ring.
Also, it doesn't look to me like Arcane Bond is supposed to adjust the cost of making that item magical. For example, you could take an existing magical item and make it into your arcane bond.
I just want to know if it's legit that a 7th level sorc can go Wonder Twin on me whenever he wants.It would be a non-standard item first of all.
Secondly those 'formulas' for continuous/command activated are not item creation formulas, rather they are DM guidelines!
The DM will determine what the final price is for such an item, if such an item is viable at all.
The formulas that you are referring to are to help the DM with proper pricing. They are not stamp of approval. The DM still has a job to do here.
-James
Exactly. Remember that, for example, if going strictly by numbers, a character could easily create a 'Ring of True Strike' with a continuous effect (+20 to hit on all attacks, no miss chance by concealment) simply by putting the base formula:
Continuous: Spell level (1) x caster level (1) x 2000 gp x special factor - base spell duration measured in rounds (4) = 8000 gp.
Now, clearly, such an item is unbalanced as hell.
WotC had even created an essay regarding such 'custom-made items' back then, you can find the old link here
Here is the pertinent part:
"Some Things to Avoid
Keep in mind that the rules and advice in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide are intended to help a reasonable person estimate what an item is worth in play. It's always a mistake to try to create the most powerful item possible for the lowest possible price or vice versa.
When the Formulas Fail: Table 7-33 provides the basic tool for determining item prices and costs, but many items don't fit the table. Many spells in the game work fine as spells, but spells come with built in limits on their power, and chief among those is the simple fact that a spell is used up when cast and a character has only so many spells available each day. Many spells become world beaters when they're placed in items that work continuously or in items that can be reused over and over again. For example, a ring of invisibility is a command-activated item that duplicates a 2nd-level spell, and its caster level is 3rd (the minimum to cast the spell). According to Table 7-33, such an item has a cost of 2 x 3 x 1,800 gp (spell level x caster x 1,800 gp). So, a ring of invisibility costs 10,800 gp, right? Wrong, it costs nearly twice that much (20,000 gp) because an endless supply of invisibility spells are worth something extra.
Use the Correct Formula: One item people frequently ask me about is a ring of true strike. The spell provides a whopping +20 insight bonus on attack rolls and negates miss chances arising from concealed targets. It's only 1st level, however, because it is a personal range spell with a duration of 1 round. That means you can normally manage one attack every 2 rounds when using the spell. Also, you can't bestow it on an ally (except for a familiar or animal companion) because of its personal range.
Assuming such a ring worked whenever it was needed and has a caster level of 1st, it would cost a mere 2,000 gp by the formula for a use activated spell effect (in this case, 1 x 1 x 2,000 gp). Sharp-eyed readers will note that any continuously functioning item has a cost adjustment of x4 (see the footnotes to Table 7-33), which bumps up the ring's cost to 8,000 gp. That's a real bargain for an item that provides so much boost to a user's combat power. Much too great a bargain.
So, what would our example ring of true strike be worth? Insight bonuses aren't included on Table 7-33, but a weapon bonus has a cost equal to the bonus squared x 2,000 gp, so a +20 weapon would cost 800,000 gp. One can argue that the ring isn't quite as good as a +20 weapon because it doesn't provide a damage bonus. That, however, ignores the very potent ability to negate most miss chances. Also, the ring's insight bonus works with any sort of attack the wearer makes. On top of all that, the insight bonus stacks with any enhancement bonus from a magic weapon the wearer might wield. Still, 800,000 gp is a lot of cash and the lack of a damage bonus is significant, so some price reduction is in order. A 50% reduction might be in order, or 400,000 gp for the ring.
Would you pay 400,000 gp for a ring of true striking? I would if I could afford it. At a price of 400,000 gp, our mythical ring of true strike is something only an epic-level character could afford. That's fine, because epic play is where the ring belongs."
And they even didn't apply the 'weapon with bonus higher than +5 = cost x10' that was in the Epic !!! Following those guidelines, such a Ring would cost 4.000.000 gp, not 400.000 gp !
In the end, it's the GM who should allow unusual magic items to come into existance. Such items could even have unusual effects from the basic spells they are based on - take for example the Dust of Disappearance, which even foils any spell of detection like See Invisibility and Invisibility Purge, although being based on the Greater Invisibility spell!
If one could craft magic items that only worked for a single person at 30% reduced cost, then at some point, the bad guys are going to start outfitting themselves with 130% of their normal wealth by CR, except it's worthless to the PCs who defeat him because they can't make any of it work!
I'd totally shoot it down, for a number of reasons:
I wouldn't let him put a spell into it he couldn't cast on grounds of being too low-level. I say the caster level requirement to craft the item is at least equal to the caster level needed to cast the spells you want the item to use. So yes, I'd generally allow him to have the ring cast heal 1/day, but not before caster level 11 (that's the soonest anyone can cast heal).
I wouldn't grant him any reduction in the price. It may be rules as written, but the GM is the final arbitrator. The intent behind these reductions is to make things you find that have limited use less valuable. You don't get to craft "child-proof" items at a price cut
On top of that, especially for items that grant a continuous benefit, the price tables are not enough. You'll have to look up items that grant him similar benefits and compare prices.
Polymorph can grant emulate beast shape II where you become huge and get a +6 bonus to strength and to natural armour (though there's the -4 to dexterity that will balance things out a bit).
+6 strength would be 36000 gil - if we were talking about an enhancement bonus. This is better, as it stacks, so it's worth more! I'd go for *1,5 for 54000 here.
+6 natural armour would be at least 72000 (bonus squared times 2000, as the amulet).
-4 Dex I'd put in at -16000
That's 110000 so far! Let's forget all the other benefits he can get out of this (blindsense, pounce, all that) and talk about the huge benefit. I.e. the one where he gets huge. That can be quite useful (better CMB/D, bigger weapons, reach...). But since I want to be generous, I'll give you discount on it, because it can be troublesome in dungeons. Say a ~10% discount.
We arrive at 100000. That would be my minimum price for an item that gives you polymorph as long as you want. And that's without putting much though into it - the price would likely go way up if I had a serious request about this.
+6 strength would be 36000 gil - if we were talking about an enhancement bonus. This is better, as it stacks, so it's worth more! I'd go for *1,5 for 54000 here.
Uh, I think you have been playing a bit too much to FFXIII, KaeYoss XD ...
Other than that, I completely agree with you. I would even not allow such an item for less than 200.000 gp, but this is obviously IMHO.
Uh, I think you have been playing a bit too much to FFXIII, KaeYoss XD
gil
It was only 120 hours or so. I guess that one day, I'll get the other trophies.
Anyway, I use gil as a substitute for GP. And I know it more from 8-bit theatre - and we all know that 8-bit theatre has nothing to do whatsoever with Final Fantasy! ;-)
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A bunch of awesome stuff and a really useful link
Oh, great Wraith, thou hast summoned an ancient one whose wisdom is beyond question (usually). The Great Skip Williams didst spake the words of common most sense, and yea it was Truth.
That link was awesome, and if a player does give me crap, I can use the ol' "That's what designer said" excuse. I never even thought to look at it that way.
And KaeYoss, as always your answers enlighten or amuse and in this case, definitely both.
And KaeYoss, as always your answers enlighten or amuse and in this case, definitely both.
Best kind.