By Str/dex I tried making a TWFer with maxed out strength damage to compare with the finesse build. This wasn't ideal, as a TWF always needs a high dexterity. At low level, though, it beat the finesse build hands down. Later, it became an also-ran.
Here are the stats I used for levels 1-10. I also included details for the paladin and ranger TWF builds, but it's the fighter builds I was most concerned with. These are with the original Improved Weapon Finesse feat I construed and the Greater Weapon Finesse to add 1/2 dex mod to the off-hand damage.
adding. for TWF only, you get your normal str + half your dex.
So now, they will not only get more str out than a THF, but will get the added bonus of adding their dex? You people all seem to be forgetting double slice, which means for a high strength character you get more str damage out of TWF than THF. Its not hard to build a character with both stats high, and I would love to add an extra 3 damage to my meat grinders. Once again, a better feat than weapon spec.
adding. for TWF only, you get your normal str + half your dex.So now, they will not only get more str out than a THF, but will get the added bonus of adding their dex? You people all seem to be forgetting double slice, which means for a high strength character you get more str damage out of TWF than THF. Its not hard to build a character with both stats high, and I would love to add an extra 3 damage to my meat grinders. Once again, a better feat than weapon spec.
Except that the TWF build HAS to concentrate on dexterity. It's not an option, unless you are a ranger, to ignore dex. The THF gets to throw everything into strength and reap the benefit from it. When I crunched the numbers it became clear to me that the build that emphasised strength as much as dex suffered for it - they either had to delay levels later on to gain their TWF feats, or else they lost out elsewhere. The reconstruction of Improved Weapon Finesse now requires a minimum intelligence, which is another outlay. In short, if you really want the feats you end up needing the lower strength build, which in turn doesn't then score so much damage from strength but does get it from dexterity to even the score. Maybe at very high level you can get 1-2 points more than with the higher strength build, but that isn't better than Weapon Specialisation.
Except that the TWF build HAS to concentrate on dexterity. It's not an option, unless you are a ranger, to ignore dex. The THF gets to throw everything into strength and reap the benefit from it. When I crunched the numbers it became clear to me that the build that emphasised strength as much as dex suffered for it - they either had to delay levels later on to gain their TWF feats, or else they lost out elsewhere. The reconstruction of Improved Weapon Finesse now requires a minimum intelligence, which is another outlay. In short, if you really want the feats you end up needing the lower strength build, which in turn doesn't then score so much damage from strength but does get it from dexterity to even the score. Maybe at very high level you can get 1-2 points more than with the higher strength build, but that isn't better than Weapon Specialisation.adding. for TWF only, you get your normal str + half your dex.So now, they will not only get more str out than a THF, but will get the added bonus of adding their dex? You people all seem to be forgetting double slice, which means for a high strength character you get more str damage out of TWF than THF. Its not hard to build a character with both stats high, and I would love to add an extra 3 damage to my meat grinders. Once again, a better feat than weapon spec.
Perhaps you should look at Bitey, my entry into the DPR Olympics. Str 24 and dex 17 at lvl 10 barb-2/rogue-8 using TWF on a standard array. He would be much nastier on a 15 point buy, or without some of the other limitations of the contest. And in even remotely higher wbl or better point buy and he gets significantly nastier. He blows away the rogues using weapon finnesse in that contest, beating them even when not raging.
Perhaps you should look at Bitey, my entry into the DPR Olympics. Str 24 and dex 17 at lvl 10 barb-2/rogue-8 using TWF on a standard array. He would be much nastier on a 15 point buy, or without some of the other limitations of the contest. And in even remotely higher wbl or better point buy and he gets significantly nastier. He blows away the rogues using weapon finnesse in that contest, beating them even when not raging.
What happens at BAB 11 without the 19 dex to make Greater TWF? That's where he loses out.
Also, if he took the feats that would cost three feat slots (Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise and Improved Weapon Finesse), and with his dexterity he would get only a +1 to damage on each attack out of it.
Perhaps you should look at Bitey, my entry into the DPR Olympics. Str 24 and dex 17 at lvl 10 barb-2/rogue-8 using TWF on a standard array. He would be much nastier on a 15 point buy, or without some of the other limitations of the contest. And in even remotely higher wbl or better point buy and he gets significantly nastier. He blows away the rogues using weapon finnesse in that contest, beating them even when not raging.What happens at BAB 11 without the 19 dex to make Greater TWF? That's where he loses out.
Also, if he took the feats that would cost three feat slots (Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise and Improved Weapon Finesse), and with his dexterity he would get only a +1 to damage on each attack out of it.
He ignores a crappy feat for a little while or spends the little bit extra for annother +2 to dex. Also, since he is not a full BAB character, he wont qualify for it for annother 4 levels.
He ignores a crappy feat for a little while or spends the little bit extra for annother +2 to dex. Also, since he is not a full BAB character, he wont qualify for it for annother 4 levels.
True, I was working with full BAB characters with my designs; I have to say those extra attacks do count for those builds but I'm guessing yours is relying as much on sneak attack for damage output as anything else, and that's a whole different ball-game. I honestly don't think that the dex-damage is broken for the TWF build (half-dex-mod to each weapon). It may add to a little extra damage at very high level, but it's already so high that I don't think it really makes any odds. The place where it makes a difference is at the mid levels where those that favoured dex over strength otherwise lag, which is what was intended.
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so my copy of Sargava: The Lost Colony shipped today and i downloaded the pdf to start looking it over. paizo has added a finesse power attack. you guys can stop looking at using deadly aim for light weapon power attacks. the feat is as follows:
Piranha Strike
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing
accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove
exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose
to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat
maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage
rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are
making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary
natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4,
and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by
–1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must
choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects
last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply
to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power
Attack feat.
notice that it says only light weapons. so no elven curved blade, but for all those short sword wielding rogues out there....
anyways, i thought you guys might want to look at this and see if it changes your numbers any.
Same as Power Attack - no change in effect.
This is essentially the same as the Deadly Aim feat, but with Weapon Finesse. I wonder if 'light weapon' includes the rapier?
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Same as Power Attack - no change in effect.
This is essentially the same as the Deadly Aim feat, but with Weapon Finesse. I wonder if 'light weapon' includes the rapier?
i've had this discussion a couple times with different people. rapiers are not light weapons. they are 1h melee weapons that allow finesse. just like the elven curved blade is a 2h weapon that allows for finesse. i looked it over again, and if you burn the feat for EWP sawtooth saber, then it would work with them because the feat makes them count as light weapons.
i've had this discussion a couple times with different people. rapiers are not light weapons. they are 1h melee weapons that allow finesse. just like the elven curved blade is a 2h weapon that allows for finesse. i looked it over again, and if you burn the feat for EWP sawtooth saber, then it would work with them because the feat makes them count as light weapons.Same as Power Attack - no change in effect.
This is essentially the same as the Deadly Aim feat, but with Weapon Finesse. I wonder if 'light weapon' includes the rapier?
I just read the description for sawtooth saber and it says counts as a light weapon for the purpose of Two weapon fighting ONLY. So in this case, it would not change the damage output.
