So finally I am really interested in this AP. What I would love to know is how dungeoncrawly Kingmaker is (compared to the other APs)?
From what we've seen so far, there aren't many "dungeons" in Kingmaker and those that do exist are more like "lairs" or "towers" rather than great expanses of underground real estate.
Shannon
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It's true, most of the dungeons are more of the "lair" variety, with say a dozen or fewer rooms/locations in them. There are one or two larger dungeons, but still probably less than 20 rooms... except for one place I can think of you'll get to later on in the AP that has a *lot* of rooms! :)
Could always make them more extensive if your party likes a good bit of dungeoneering. My PCs are currently approaching The Lonely Barrow in "Rivers Run Red" and I'll be adding a few extra things to it above ground and below.
It's true, most of the dungeons are more of the "lair" variety, with say a dozen or fewer rooms/locations in them. There are one or two larger dungeons, but still probably less than 20 rooms... except for one place I can think of you'll get to later on in the AP that has a *lot* of rooms! :)
Could always make them more extensive if your party likes a good bit of dungeoneering. My PCs are currently approaching The Lonely Barrow in "Rivers Run Red" and I'll be adding a few extra things to it above ground and below.
Gloriously small dungeons in the first two mods
lots of "Finding the Path" and not much "Dragons in Dungeons"
long may it be that way
John
who likes dungeons to have 12 rooms or less
One really nice thing about this AP is that you can easily add in any encounter/dungeoncrawl you feel like. Want an extra encounter with an owlbear? Have it attack their camp! In the second book where the party spends months sitting in one place it's just as easy to have a quest NPC send them to a dungeoncrawl as it is any other hex.
Even if the party get's a little ahead of the experience curve so far this has been a rather easy AP to scale up. At the end of Rivers Run Red and your party is level 9 because of an incursion into a drow stronghold? TWO giant enraged owlbears attack the town!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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One really nice thing about this AP is that you can easily add in any encounter/dungeoncrawl you feel like. Want an extra encounter with an owlbear? Have it attack their camp! In the second book where the party spends months sitting in one place it's just as easy to have a quest NPC send them to a dungeoncrawl as it is any other hex.
Even if the party get's a little ahead of the experience curve so far this has been a rather easy AP to scale up. At the end of Rivers Run Red and your party is level 9 because of an incursion into a drow stronghold? TWO giant enraged owlbears attack the town!
I've had to do a lot of this, since I started the campaign last fall with Crypt of the Everflame and didn't want to do a reboot once Kingmaker finally came out (and this even taking into account that I had a draft version of Stolen Land to work with well ahead of actual publication).
So... I worked out a rationale that gradually drew the PCs from Nirmathas over to the River Kingdoms and had them find the royal charter from Brevoy as treasure on an NPC at around 5th level, which brought them into the KM process early on (although, amusingly, I had a draft without maps, aside from having a basic overland map of the area with no key, so I kinda made stuff up as I went along).
Anyway, the point is that the PCs have now hit 8th level and are still in the middle portion of Rivers Run Red, and it is going along just fine at an average party level DOUBLE what the module intends.
In some cases, I just apply arbitrary combat mods (e.g., the simple advanced template) to an encounter already in the book.
I do make liberal use of wandering monsters, using the table as a guide but feeling free to increase numbers or add minions to a lone creature.
I also add in some other stuff that has grown organically out of decisions by the PCs. I've mentioned in another thread the barghest that was a random encounter in the Sootscale Caverns hex that became the leader of a pack of goblin rogues that wiped out the kobolds, but then escaped and became the leader of a large pack of worgs terrorizing the eastern frontier... and whom the PCs finally chased down and put to the sword in the last session.
I also work a lot with the political end of things. The PCs are a year and a half into their kingdom and they had to make a trip to Restov to buy some scrolls to bring a PC and cohort back from the dead. The ruler PC (who has since become an inactive PC as the player has started a new character) decided to go to Restov and just 'make the rounds' politically speaking. I took the occasion to introduce them to Baron Maegar Varn from Varnhold, the fledgling barony to the east. I also sent along a couple of fantasy art pictures, one for him and one for another noble NPC interested in building a Mansion/Noble Villa in their capital, if only they could retrieve some fine antique elven statuary from the southern Narlmarches for her (basically an adapted version of the "Local Flirt/Lily Teskerton" quest from the module's cover). One of the players was instantly smitten with the baron and romanced him; another was equally intrigued by (and suspicious of) the mysterious noblewoman.
Most of the political stuff is only marginally level-relevant, so we can do all of that without regard to the PCs being over-leveled. That said, you CAN make it level-relevant, like when the PCs were trying to negotiate which hexes they and Varnhold might make a claim to in the areas west of the Tors of Levenies that they might both like to claim. We ran this as in-character negotiation plus an opposed Diplomacy check, so they could flex their skills and aid anothers (Baron Varn, of course, responded in kind), and the players were very much enjoying the ability to play on that level as well.
Lastly, sometimes I run the encounters exactly as written, because sometimes encounters can be sneakily difficult (like the Lizardfolk Lair) already, and because sometimes players enjoy a nice curb-stomping where they get to just go in and kick the crud out of some bad guys.
So... that's my game! :)
So finally I am really interested in this AP. What I would love to know is how dungeoncrawly Kingmaker is (compared to the other APs)?
Most people seem to have responded to this thread assuming the OP was hoping that it would be dungeoncrawly and assuring him that it was.
I will happily come from the other side. :-)
I hate dungeon crawls and think they can kill an otherwise fun game. That being said, Kingmaker has me pumped more than any other AP because it is pretty short on the dungeons. I only have access to what has been published, but from what I've seen so far, it is blissfully dungeon-free.
What you DO get:
- there are some slightly larger complexes (a dozen rooms at most), but they are all inhabited: basically they're forts: they have intelligent gaurds that move around the system and use it as an active living quarters - and in all of these you have a specific task that could be accomplished through some other means than hack-n-slash (like sneaking in and assasinating the leader, or creative diplomacy, etc) - this does not fit the definition of "dungeon" in my opinion
- there exist some "ruined complexes with monsters and traps" - ie the more classic dungeon - but none of them (yet) have had more than FIVE rooms - they are very small, and seemingly can be done without resting
- you could, in theory, consider the overland map to be one huge dungeon, with each hex being a room in the dungeon - but this is still broken up with towns (some that you create!) and every "room" has six "doors leading out" :-p
- however, there are "kingdom events" that occur that you must deal with (like cultists taking root, or propaganda sabatoge) that CAN NOT be dealt with in a purely hack-n-slash manner
- there is nothing resembling a classic dungeon, which I define as a large complex full of monsters and traps that is principally dealt with through combat that takes multiple rests (and OOG hours) to complete
I may be in a minority, but I consider this Kingmaker's strongest selling point. It has me and my players ecstatic and willing to go back to D&D after so much disillusionment. Dungeon grinds kill otherwise awesome campaigns. Kingmaker has combat: but it keeps it short and broken up. There are some things that can only be solved with violence, yes, but most things can be solved EITHER with violence OR with some other method. And so much that can only be dealt with non-violently. This pleases me deeply. If this sounds like your cup of tea, please, party on! It's safe to roleplay here.
Creative Director
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We're trying to get a pretty good mix of play experiences into Kingmaker. The first two adventures are pretty light on the dungeon crawling elements, as folks have seen, but there are some larger dungeon crawls coming up. Dungeon Spoilers Ahead!
So while Kingmaker is certainly NOT dungeon free, it does present a lot of different options for players, including some "dungeons" that aren't intended to be room-by-room explorations as much as they are fast invasions or infiltrations.
Well actually my players don't get along well with dungeons, speaking of 15+ room-ones. Me personally I don't care too much, wether it is dungeon, wilderness or urban adventure. IMHO it is always the whole gaming group that can turn almost any adventure into "success" or "failure".
That being said, our gaming group favors roleplaying over hack'n'slash in general.
I see much potential in Kingmaker regarding flexibility, adaptability and player immersion into the campaign besides the table and wonder wether a switch from our more than two years running CotCT-campaign is worth it.
As our current campaign has come to a stop for almost half a year for various reasons, I consider switching to KM, because of this break, the dungeon-heavy later half of the AP and some other minor reasons.
So KM was already interesting before I realized how dungeon-light it is. : )
Thank you everybody for answering, especially the replies from contributors and creators were what I was hoping for!
But keep it coming! The discussions on scalability and "insertability" of KM is very intriguing to me!