Spread Clarification (Official if possible)

[dmchucky69]

Okay, I need help.

I've got a player who disagrees with me on how spreads work. The disagreement is simple.

He believes that the word "spread" means that the spell starts at the area described in the AOE part of the spell description and then continues to "spread" out each round until it floods whatever area it is cast in (outdoors it could conceivably be miles of stuff).

I believe that the term "spread" (a poor term for what it does granted), is just a type of spell shape that works like a burst but can go around corners. It never moves beyond the stated AOE unless specifically described in the body of the spell (like cloudkill for instance).

Now he does respect my ruling as a DM, but he considers this to be my interpretation of the rules. To me, it is not an "interpretation" at all, but how the designers of Pathfinder (and 3.5 before that) intended for this to work.

The spell in question that started this whole disagreement is FOG CLOUD.

I welcome any other posters to comment on this. but I'd really love and appreciate it if I could get an "official" response from one of the Big Guns (Mona, Jacobs, Buhlman, Sutter, Schneider, or Reynolds). Those guys are always so good about answering stuff like this.

I am going to refer all of the players in my group to this thread so they can follow along with it.

Thanks in advance to all who weigh in on this subject!

[Lathiira]

Unless noted otherwise, spreads don't spread. Look at the spell duration. If it says instantaneous, then the spread covers the entire area listed in one moment. If it has a duration, then it appears in an instant and covers the given area. "Spread" here is a descriptive term, describing the geometric shape of the effect; your peeps are trying to make it into a verb.

[d20pfsrd.com]

You are correct.

The Effect line indicates the area of effect. If a spells area of effect differs from that which is in its Effect line it will indicate it very clearly in the description.

In the case of fog cloud, the maximum area it affects is a 20-ft. radius sphere.

[Rezdave]

dmchucky69 wrote:

He believes that the word "spread" means that the spell starts at the area described in the AOE part of the spell description and then continues to "spread" out each round until it floods whatever area it is cast in

Your Player is incorrect.

I checked the PRD and there is no single, specific quote I can point out in the description of spread, so instead I'll use several quotes and a logical argument. Granted, "proof by exclusion" is itself a logic-fallacy, but the exclusions and omissions in the rules of any supporting evidence for the Player's position are the primary evidence that he is incorrect.

From the PRD

PRD wrote:

Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes.

Subjects, Effects, and Areas: If the spell affects creatures directly, the result travels with the subjects for the spell's duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration. The effect might move or remain still. Such an effect can be destroyed prior to when its duration ends. If the spell affects an area, then the spell stays with that area for its duration.

Logical Reasons the DM is correct

• The spell description specifies an Area-of-Effect that is generally dependent upon level. If the spell simply "spread" from a specific point (according to the quote above) and there was no limit to its size, then there would be no reason to designate an AoE, but simply Duration.

• If Duration were the only factor of a spread, then AoE would be a function of ( duration * rate of spread ) rather than ( CL * AoE constant ). No spell, however designates the AoE in this manner.

• Some spreads can move or drift (such as many clouds), while others disperse. Because the spell description specifies whether spells disperse or remain when in motion or affected by outside forces, it is possible for spreads to retain a coherent form. This ability to retain a coherent form implies an ability to reach and "stop" at a limited AoE.

• Although spells may specify a speed of movement, no spread spell specifies a "rate of spread" that, per above, would be required to calculate its progression over time as a factor of Duration. There is no precedent in any extant Core spell for such calculations and the necessary "stats" for such a calculation are not present.

• If a "spread" spell creates an instantaneous volume which then extends from the point of creation, then as it spreads it also dissipates. This would, round by round, make Saving Throws against the effects of such a spell progressively easier. However, no such mechanic exists, thus this must not be the manner in which a spread operates.

• If a spread continuously generates additional volume throughout the duration of the spell, then in an unenclosed space it will expand in radius at an increasingly slowing rate. Calculating the "spread" of the spread would become more complex than is standard in the RAW mechanics.

• There are no examples in the RAW text of a spread operating in this manner.

HTH,

Rez

[Sebastian]

That's officially a nutty interpretation - how about that?

For what it's worth, the mechanics of spells with the "spread" description is found under the heading "Area" in the Pathfinder SRD. Under that, is the following:

PFRPG SRD wrote:

A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners.

And, from the rules on how a burst works in the same section:

PFRPG SRD wrote:

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.

There's also the fact that spread speeds are not listed in the spell descriptions (which presumably they would need to be if that's an element of the spell). Take Fog Cloud. It's area of effect says:

PFRPG SRD wrote:

fog spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high

There's nothing there to imply that it spreads 20-ft per round (or per minute, or per 10 minutes - which is another problem with this idea, if spells spread for their entire duration, how much do they spread per round/minute/10 minutes/etc).

There's also this text from Cloudkill, which specifies how to recalculate the spread each time it moves:

PFRPG SRD wrote:

Unlike a fog cloud, the cloudkill moves away from you at 10 feet per round, rolling along the surface of the ground.

Figure out the cloud's new spread each round based on its new point of origin, which is 10 feet farther away from the point of origin where you cast the spell.

Why even have cloudkill move if the spread will eventually reach everyone in a 1-mile radius? Is the spell so complicated that you need to move the center of effect each round and then calculate the larger spread from that point? If it only moves 10' per round and spreads 20' per round, why bother with all that brain damage given that the spell will spread faster than it moves?

It's always harder to prove a negative, but I would expect some types of rules about how spreads work if they were supposed to spread for the spell's entire duration. There's nothing in the rules addressing the concept, and it's complicated enough that I would expect a decent chunk of text clearing up the potential issues.

Edit: Ninja'd.

[Magicdealer]

Also, for you players reading this, consider the repercussions of said effect working in that manner.

Eventually, the whole party would be enveloped in the spread. As possibly would be whole towns.

On page 215 of the chapter on magic, find the italic section on Burst, Emanation, or Spread.

"A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends." "A spread extends out like a burst but can turn corners."

This only affects creatures who had 100% cover from a burst effect. It doesn't affect the total distance the spell can go.

Example time!

Cloudkill:

Effect cloud spreads in 20-ft radius, 20 ft. high.

This isn't a range increment. This is the total area of effect for the spell. So you get a 20-ft radius only.

When you're going through stuff, and you think you've found something that's grossly overpowered, most of the time you just missed a sentence. Not always, but 99%.

I imagine you probably read that not long after reading about range increments on bows and thought they functioned the same. They don't. But that doesn't mean that spreads aren't plenty powerful already.

The term spread is meant to imply that it spreads out to cover the entire reachable area of it's effect. To imply that it can *turn corners* to fill the space up. Not to imply that it uses any sort of range increment.

[DM_Blake]

dmchucky69 wrote:

then continues to "spread" out each round until it floods whatever area it is cast in (outdoors it could conceivably be miles of stuff).

Wouldn't it be cool if the first evil wizard to reach 9th level wiped entire nations off of the planet? One cloudkill, given a little bit of time, would easily kill 99.9% of the population of an entire continent - unless maybe it ran into impassible mountain ranges - some folks in the higher elevations might be saved.

Unless it spreads in 3 dimensions...

Wouldn't that suck? Unless, of course, you're the 9th level wizard. Think of the XP!!!

Back to reality now.

There is a reason the spell description include the word "spread" AND the actual size of the spread - that size is the upper limit of the spread.

QED.

[Kyranor]

so with cloudkill...how big is it when it starts? and in subsequent rounds?

[Magicdealer]

Cloudkill is a 20ft radius when you cast it. It lasts 1 minute a level.

No matter how many minutes pass, it will always remain a 20ft radius.

It's kind of handy to cut out cardboard *shapes* for your cones, spreads, bursts, and what-have-you.

Since the sizes are set, you can use them to easily calculate where to place your spell on your battle mat when casting.

[Kyranor]

ok...just lightbulbed! glorious understanding!

[Magicdealer]

Huh. I think I just heard the ding. :p *level up!*

[Kyranor]

now to try and explain it to my group...they can be stubborn...

[Rezdave]

Kyranor wrote:

now to try and explain it to my group...they can be stubborn...

There should be plenty of ammunition here, if interpretation rather than image is the problem.

As far as explaining it ... imagine the big, puffy clouds in the sky that have defined "edges" rather than steam billowing out of a sauna when you open the door ... that's what D&D spread spells are like. Despite the name, they don't.

Or, rather, they "spread" everywhere within a defined AoE (unlike bursts), but do not spread beyond it. As far as "billowing out from a single point", that's flavor text and it takes less than ... oh ... 6-seconds for them to reach their maximum size, regardless of CL :-)

R.

[Magicdealer]

Actually, I think the most effective way of that would be to tell them to show you where it says that the area of a spell expands over time.

Let them dig until they can't find it and give up :D

[PathfinderEspañol]

Rules are not about what someone thinks, except when the rules are open for imagination or there's a reason to make your own houserules. I don't use airborne divisions when playing Risk even if the rules of Risk don't say that there can't be airborne units, but would be cool.

This game have clear instructions about spread spells, please read what "Range" means, pag. 213 of the book.

Core rulebook wrote:

"A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as

defined in the range entry of the spell description. A spell’s
range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s
effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which
you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion
of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that
area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following."

Fog Cloud Range is 100ft + 10ft/level.

The Effect (it isn't an Area spell, but an Effect) is a fog that spreads in 20ft radius, as stated in pag 214 it means that it isn't blocked by lines of effect and it spreads inside that area.

[Charender]

Kyranor wrote:

now to try and explain it to my group...they can be stubborn...

If they are really stubborn, then perhaps a better way would be to use a spread against them using their interpretation of the rules.

Have an lich cast cloudkill 100 feet away in a room, then disappears inside it. Once it envelops the entire party and TPKs them you can explain why it would be grossly overpowered if it worked that way.

[dmchucky69]

I appreciate everyones' comments on this; I was not surprised that you all would agree with my 'take' of how spreads work. Still hoping one of the Paizo hired guns can add their two cents to this. Because until that happens, the player in question could continue to refer to the RAW as my "interpretation" which just drives me nuts! We all know how this works!

In any event, two of my other players have quit the group (father and son); mostly because the father is looking for a game that isn't as structured (he doesn't seem to like dice rolling much). Plus I think I pissed him off when I yelled at him for wanting to fire his henchmen because I had switched her from a sorc to a rogue. The reason I did this? Because his 16 year old son tried to run his rogue like a barbarian, and complained at every game at how gimped rogues were. I finally let him switch characters again (this was the 4th character switch I think) and the party needed a rogue. We had a new wizard PC coming into the game, so WHA-LA, I changed the NPC from a sorc to a rogue. Now I kind of expected the father to gripe about me changing his henchperson's class without his permission the game after I did it, but he didn't. It was two games later that he decided to growl that he was firing her because he didn't hire a damn rogue! Guess he caught me off guard, cause I reminded him in no uncertain terms that he had his son to blame for the switch. And is there anything more annoying than a 16-year old boy that doesn't get his way? I swear to god this kid would put out his lower lip and pout anytime I told him no. Was I wrong to want to hit him? And of course, his father sitting right next to him would just do nothing. I am probably better off without these two high maintenance players anyway.

But the result of this story means that we are abandoning ROTR in the middle of Part 4, and starting a COCT campaign.

Wow, it feels good to vent out like that. My VTT groups never seem to get under my skin like my face to face group does!

[Sebastian]

Sounds like you had some weapons-grade stupidity in the group. Hope things go better from here on out.