Abraham spalding wrote: Sounds solid to me. Remember you'll get three stat boosts... that's enough to turn a 14 into a 15 either early on or later (which ever works best for you at the time). I think the skill focus could be dropped but it does provide an edge. Sweet, then let's drop skill focus from level 3... and work in spring attack!
1.Rogue:(1): Power Attack Half-Elf Feat: Skill focus, Stealth +1d6SA
2.Fighter(1): Dodge +1d6SA +1
3. Fighter (2): Mobility , Nimble +2
4. Rogue (2): Talent:Wep Focus: Great Sword +3
5: Rogue (3) Feat: Spring Attack +2d6SA +4
6: Rogue(4) Feat: Intimidating Prowess Talent: Bleed +5
7: Rogue (5) Feat:Dazzling Display +3d6 +5
8: Rogue (6) Talent: Shatter Defenses +6
9: Rogue(7) Feat: Vital Striker +4d6 +6
10: Rogue (8) Talent: Trap Spotter? +6BAB
11: Rogue(9) Feat: Iron Will? +5d6
12: Rogue : Talent: Opportunist
By level 5 he is a HIGHLY mobile greatsword backstabbing maniac.
By level 8 he uses his greatsword for a dazzling display of level+9.
Sweet. Thanks for the help
Aelryinth wrote: Keep in mind that whirlwind requires that you end up in the middle of a bunch of hostile enemies. If you don't kill them all, youa re likely dead the next round.
And +1Th, weapon focus, does indeed add +5% to your DOT. 95% chance to hit instead of 90% chance to hit is 5% more DoT.
===Aelryinth
Two things here:
First whirlwinding with a rogue is predicated upon a greater invisibility or the like to get the sneak attacks rather than having multiple flanks. After you whirlwind (likely with a reach weapon) you then 5' step. If they wish to swing at squares that you might be in then it might get hairy, but it's no more dangerous than going behind lines to flank.
Second, +5% of what?
If you go from hitting 5% of the time to 10% of the time, suddenly you've doubled your expected damage each round.
Meanwhile, if you go from hitting 50% of the time to 55% of the time, you've increased your expected damage by 10% of what you would average in a round without the increase.
The returns scale, but it depends upon how you are looking at it.
A +5% to hit, does increase your expected damage by 5% of your average damage (assuming that you weren't hitting/confirming on a 2 before).
-James
james maissen wrote: Aelryinth wrote: Keep in mind that whirlwind requires that you end up in the middle of a bunch of hostile enemies. If you don't kill them all, youa re likely dead the next round.
And +1Th, weapon focus, does indeed add +5% to your DOT. 95% chance to hit instead of 90% chance to hit is 5% more DoT.
===Aelryinth
Two things here:
First whirlwinding with a rogue is predicated upon a greater invisibility or the like to get the sneak attacks rather than having multiple flanks. After you whirlwind (likely with a reach weapon) you then 5' step. If they wish to swing at squares that you might be in then it might get hairy, but it's no more dangerous than going behind lines to flank.
Second, +5% of what?
If you go from hitting 5% of the time to 10% of the time, suddenly you've doubled your expected damage each round.
Meanwhile, if you go from hitting 50% of the time to 55% of the time, you've increased your expected damage by 10% of what you would average in a round without the increase.
The returns scale, but it depends upon how you are looking at it.
A +5% to hit, does increase your expected damage by 5% of your average damage (assuming that you weren't hitting/confirming on a 2 before).
-James Yeah. That was my thought. THEN add in lunge and his whirlwind reaches everyone in 10 foot radius! I mean, if TWF is a ful round attack, and if people take it, then why wouldnt whirlwind also be viable? When you add in lunge, I think the opportunity for a 5 opponent simultaneous sneak attack becomes viable!
But I am adopting a new approach... See my most recent post above for my plan. It involves running around and relying on a greatsword, power attack and (eventually) vital strike for damage. He can do competitive backstab damage compared to a twf (actually does more in the lower levels) with a higher chance to hit and MUCH more mobility.
Then he goes the dazzling disply-->shatter defenses route.
This build should be highly survivable and able to easily flank do to his speed (nimble+mobility+dodge= can risk AOO and rough terrain to get flanking and to escape). Spring attack allows hit and run backstabbing.
@ Gelmir I don't know what it is you're exactly looking for, whether it be an optimized 1 Weapon Rogue (as the title and a lot of posts suggest) or a 1 Weapon Rogue as a concept. If it's a concept, play it. Don't worry about optimizing. I'm also going with an Elven Curved Blade Elf Rogue, because it's something I want to play. I don't know if it's on here, cuz I skipped through the last third of the posts, but you need Martial Weapon Proficiency Elven Curved Blade: Rogues don't get MWP for free, and the ECB only come out of exotic to martial for Elves.
But like I said, if it's just for concept, then just play it. That's what I'll be doing. BTW, I also took Profession: Cook, and plan on pumping Linguistics, cuz that's part of my concept. YMMV ;)
Runnetib wrote: @ Gelmir I don't know what it is you're exactly looking for, whether it be an optimized 1 Weapon Rogue (as the title and a lot of posts suggest) or a 1 Weapon Rogue as a concept. If it's a concept, play it. Don't worry about optimizing. I'm also going with an Elven Curved Blade Elf Rogue, because it's something I want to play. I don't know if it's on here, cuz I skipped through the last third of the posts, but you need Martial Weapon Proficiency Elven Curved Blade: Rogues don't get MWP for free, and the ECB only come out of exotic to martial for Elves.
But like I said, if it's just for concept, then just play it. That's what I'll be doing. BTW, I also took Profession: Cook, and plan on pumping Linguistics, cuz that's part of my concept. YMMV ;)
Well that is why I take a couple levels of fighter... opens up Elven Curved Blade.
But in the new half-elf build I just go for great sword.
Go for something oddball!!!
How about a rogue with a longspear, spring attack, and combat reflexes. That still leaves you feats for Power Attack, Lunge, Skill Focus, or whatever.
I think that build could be fun. Especially if the DM lets you use the longspear like a polevault. But then I usually play oddball characters and strange builds, like a dwarven melee-Sorcerer, or a spellcasting thief with no ranks in Rogue (knock instead of picking locks, invisibility instead of stealth, etc.).
BTW. Congrats on trying to do something different. My pet peeve is "copycat" builds that reinforce a stereotype. Dwarven axe-Fighter? Halfling dagger-Rogue? Elven two-weapon Ranger? BORING.
QUit looking at +5% dmg as a % of TH ability and look at it as what it is...a scaling increase of DOT.
It doesn't matter what the before/after ratio is. what matters is what it does to DOT.
At 10 dmg/attack, it doesn't mean a lot. Maybe 1 pt.
At 20 dmg/attack, it means 1 pt per attack, firm.
At 40 dmg/attack, it's +2 dmg/attack.
At 60 dmg/attack, it's +3 dmg/attack. And as dmg increases, it only gets better.
And this is PER ATTACK. I.e. it stacks with iteratives. It's why it's as good or better then Power Attack over time (still not sure why Power Attack is in the above build...ah well.) The bonus TH is why the Fighter can rock so hard...he always lands, even with Power attack, or, more importantly, his third iterative can land almost as well as most people's primary!
A rogue is a skill monkey. You build a skill monkey with Dex for his skills.
I still believe he should take his build and go one handed with the Dancing Dervish feat and a buckler in the off hand. His AC will be excellent enough to do some tanking (he's only 1 hp/level behind the FIghter, after all), and his lunge/etc trick still works. Take out Power Attack, get virtually the same dmg bonus for no penalty, and keep your high AC and stat bonus to skills.
Also note that with Fighter levels he's going to get a Primary weapon bonus and some armor enhancement.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth wrote: QUit looking at +5% dmg as a % of TH ability and look at it as what it is...a scaling increase of DOT.
It doesn't matter what the before/after ratio is. what matters is what it does to DOT.
At 10 dmg/attack, it doesn't mean a lot. Maybe 1 pt.
At 20 dmg/attack, it means 1 pt per attack, firm.
At 40 dmg/attack, it's +2 dmg/attack.
At 60 dmg/attack, it's +3 dmg/attack. And as dmg increases, it only gets better.
And this is PER ATTACK. I.e. it stacks with iteratives. It's why it's as good or better then Power Attack over time (still not sure why Power Attack is in the above build...ah well.) The bonus TH is why the Fighter can rock so hard...he always lands, even with Power attack, or, more importantly, his third iterative can land almost as well as most people's primary!
A rogue is a skill monkey. You build a skill monkey with Dex for his skills.
I still believe he should take his build and go one handed with the Dancing Dervish feat and a buckler in the off hand. His AC will be excellent enough to do some tanking (he's only 1 hp/level behind the FIghter, after all), and his lunge/etc trick still works. Take out Power Attack, get virtually the same dmg bonus for no penalty, and keep your high AC and stat bonus to skills.
Also note that with Fighter levels he's going to get a Primary weapon bonus and some armor enhancement.
==Aelryinth
Well power attack works well with 2 handed weapons...
Also, I do like cleave. A lot. Would really like to be able to use it...
Also, with flanking, power attack can make sense... no?
Runnetib wrote: @ Gelmir I don't know what it is you're exactly looking for, whether it be an optimized 1 Weapon Rogue (as the title and a lot of posts suggest) or a 1 Weapon Rogue as a concept. If it's a concept, play it. Don't worry about optimizing. I'm also going with an Elven Curved Blade Elf Rogue, because it's something I want to play. I don't know if it's on here, cuz I skipped through the last third of the posts, but you need Martial Weapon Proficiency Elven Curved Blade: Rogues don't get MWP for free, and the ECB only come out of exotic to martial for Elves.
But like I said, if it's just for concept, then just play it. That's what I'll be doing. BTW, I also took Profession: Cook, and plan on pumping Linguistics, cuz that's part of my concept. YMMV ;)
heh. yeah, I took perform: oratory for the same reason.
I think Power Attack will serve you well over the course of the game even if you choose not to use it on EVERY opponent a Fighter might (PRPG's PA wording isn't precisely worded that you can choose whether to use it or not, but I think most DMs would allow that, i.e. 100% or 0%, just not 'dialing' it like 3.5). You probably do want to take Weapon Focus before you take Power Attack - Sneak Attack should out-do Power Attack whenever it works, so PA doesn't need to be as much a priority for you as a pure Fighter. It's not 100% clear at the moment rules-wise, but my bet is that Vital Strike DOES work with Sneak Attack.
I think with a +2 DEX Ioun Stone you shouldn't have a problem getting 15 DEX, or 16 really - that's not really remarkably high for a mid-level Fighter AT ALL. I would probably also have at least 12 CON and WIS, but 13/14 DEX to start is not that big of a deal, and shouldn't prevent you from getting (max DEX -2) at 1st level with PFS point buy, and I don't think going beyond that is "worth it" because you have to practically give up on the rest of your stats.
You might also consider using a Reach Weapon instead of Greatsword, besides the Cleave angle there is also AoO's (both yours and the enemies') to consider: (from Adventurer's Armory)
Martials: Bardiche 1d10 (19-20/x2), Glaive-guisarme 1d10 (x3),
Exotics: Fauchard 1d10 (18-20/x2, trip), Meteor Hammer 1d10 (19-20/x2, trip)
(note: Reach Trip weapons would appear to nullify the enemy's AoO vs. un-Improved Trip unless they can match your reach)
Aelrynth wrote: I still believe he should take his build and go one handed with the Dancing Dervish feat and a buckler in the off hand. Except you can't have ANYTHING (i.e. including Shields) in your off-hand to use that Feat.
Quandary wrote: I think Power Attack will serve you well over the course of the game even if you choose not to use it on EVERY opponent a Fighter might (PRPG's PA wording isn't precisely worded that you can choose whether to use it or not, but I think most DMs would allow that, i.e. 100% or 0%, just not 'dialing' it like 3.5). You probably do want to take Weapon Focus before you take Power Attack - Sneak Attack should out-do Power Attack whenever it works, so PA doesn't need to be as much a priority for you as a pure Fighter. It's not 100% clear at the moment rules-wise, but my bet is that Vital Strike DOES work with Sneak Attack.
I think with a +2 DEX Ioun Stone you shouldn't have a problem getting 15 DEX, or 16 really - that's not really remarkably high for a mid-level Fighter AT ALL. I would probably also have at least 12 CON and WIS, but 13/14 DEX to start is not that big of a deal, and shouldn't prevent you from getting (max DEX -2) at 1st level with PFS point buy, and I don't think going beyond that is "worth it" because you have to practically give up on the rest of your stats.
You might also consider using a Reach Weapon instead of Greatsword, besides the Cleave angle there is also AoO's (both yours and the enemies') to consider: (from Adventurer's Armory)
Martials: Bardiche 1d10 (19-20/x2), Glaive-guisarme 1d10 (x3),
Exotics: Fauchard 1d10 (18-20/x2, trip), Meteor Hammer 1d10 (19-20/x2, trip)
(note: Reach Trip weapons would appear to nullify the enemy's AoO vs. un-Improved Trip unless they can match your reach)
Aelrynth wrote: I still believe he should take his build and go one handed with the Dancing Dervish feat and a buckler in the off hand. Except you can't have ANYTHING (i.e. including Shields) in your off-hand to use that Feat.
sneak attack with a pole-arm? LOL! HIlarious. I'll think about that.
I also like the trip angle. Probably will go like this:
1.Rogue:(1): Dodge Half-Elf Feat: Skill focus, Stealth +1d6SA
2.Fighter(1): Power attack, +1d6SA +1
3. Fighter (2): Mobility, Cleave+2
4. Rogue (2): Talent: Wep Focus: Great Sword +3
5: Rogue (3) Feat: Intimidating Prowess +2d6SA +4
6: Rogue(4) Talent: Bleed+5
7: Rogue (5) Feat: Dazzling Display +3d6 +5
8: Rogue (6) Talent: Shatter Defenses +6
9: Rogue(7) Feat: Vital Striker +4d6 +6
10: Rogue (8) Talent: Trap Spotter? +6BAB
11: Rogue(9) Feat: Iron Will? +5d6
12: Rogue : Talent: Opportunist
Dude, take dazzlingdazzling display, shatter defenses and conrugan smash (check the srd) and you get an intimidate check as a free action on any hit. That works with any attack combo and you don't need a flank.
Yeah, but Cornugon Smash is a Cheliax-specific Trait gained from training to emulate the fighting styles of devils, right?, so it's not going to be appropriate for every character... I haven't noticed any Cheliax or Diabolical references in the OP's description of his character concept. If that is his intended flavor, then sure, CorSmash works great.
Quandary wrote: Yeah, but Cornugon Smash is a Cheliax-specific Trait gained from training to emulate the fighting styles of devils, right?, so it's not going to be appropriate for every character... I haven't noticed any Cheliax or Diabolical references in the OP's description of his character concept. If that is his intended flavor, then sure, CorSmash works great. The character concept is Qadiran spy.... hence the perform skill and high charisma.
He ends up taking desert shadow.... which for rogues is a pretty awesome trait (full speed move in stealth with no penalty).
so you could in his backstory have him born in cheliax and early emigration to quadira... Conrugan smash is the only free action intimidate you can get and with shatter defenses is pure win on a rogue.
Ardenup wrote: so you could in his backstory have him born in cheliax and early emigration to quadira... Conrugan smash is the only free action intimidate you can get and with shatter defenses is pure win on a rogue.
I will try toget my hands on the Cheliax supplement to check this out. sounds awesome.
On the other hand, I thought that once I used dazzling display and intimdated a group, my next swing at a "shaken" opponent when using shatter defenses meant that that hit AND every hit until the next round counted as a sneak attack (opponent's dex not applied to AC).
If my intimidate is high enough (say, +18 at level 8... which it would be int he above build), the dazzling display would last, on average for 3 rounds... which is 3 SAs (or more if I can leverage cleave) before I have to revert to flanking.
I guess what I am saying is... I'd be quite effective doing the above. Also, the dazzling display with the greatsword is just entertaining.
ALso, Desert Shadow is huge for a rogue and allows him to avoid spending a talent to get the same effect.
But I'll look at getting the cheliax supplement....
You don't need the cheliax suppliement- it's already in the Pathfinder SRD in the feats section. The point of taking it is Dazzling Display on everybody requires an action. With Conrugan Smash it's a free action agaisnt whomever you hit EVERY hit so you can get to SA straight away.
Imagine entering combat with no flank- normally you'd either dazzle display a single target as a standard action or everybody as full round action you turn is effectively over
RD2 you can either full attack a single intimiadated opponent or move and attack any opponent.
If you're target saves you need to burn another action to try again. (with another +5 to the DC)
With conrugan smash on rd 1 you move adjacent and attack (free intimidate)
rd2 full attack with SA dice on the intimidated opponent. Doesn't matter if they saved as they'll be subject to another check for every hit you make.
The key to using this ability is a high to hit. On the first attack don't do anything that would reduce your chance of a hit (no power attacking or combat expertise for example)
Ardenup wrote:
The key to using this ability is a high to hit. On the first attack don't do anything that would reduce your chance of a hit (no power attacking or combat expertise for example)
You have to use power attack in order to get the free action intimidate.
Cornugon Smash (Combat)
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Intimidate 6 ranks.
Benefit: When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Big Stupid Fight isn't so stupid after all... ;-)
forgot about that. I have PA always on, but if I go rogue it's a rogue11/fighter9 multiclass since wpn training 2 and gtr wpn fcs reduce the penalty a bit. (melee wpn mastery- slashing helps more if you allow PHB2)
Anyone yet mention the Dervish Dance feat that lets you not only weapon finesse with a scimitar but also lets you use your DEX to damage so long as you're using it one handed, and just one?
Rogues pump DEX anyway and this seems like a natural fit for a one handed rogue. I do it myself and it works out good. For one you free up a feat (instead of taking two weapon fighting and improved two weapon, you're just taking dervish dance in it's place). Also, you gain +2 to hit which CAN make a difference since you're not dual wielding. THEN you get to add your dex to damage which is usually your highest stat.
It works out pretty good.
So... I decided to pitch in with my set-up with an elven Rogue I'm planning to play. And hey! funny enough, I was going for the whirlwind elven curve blade routine as well... This is my take on it...
Lvl 1) Fighter. Feats: Dodge, Mobility (Gives a good base HP-wise)
Lvl 2) Rogue
Lvl 3) Rogue, Feat: Combat Expertise, Talent: Finesse Rogue
Lvl 4) Rogue
Lvl 5) Rogue, Feat: Whirlwind Attack, Talent: CombatTrick (Spring Attack)
Lvl 6) Rogue
Lvl 7) Rogue, Feat: Improved Initiative, Talent: Weapon Training (Elven Curve Blade
Lvl 8) Rogue
Lvl 9) Rogue, Feat: Lunge, Talent: Bleeding Attack
Lvl 10) Rogue
Lvl 11) Rogue, Feat: Quick Draw, Talent: Skill Mastery*
Lvl 12) Rogue
* With Skill Mastery you take Use Magic Device (which you have been putting ranks in since lvl 1 which means that you can use any wand automaticly since the DC is "only" 20. That is your doorway to near endless sneaks through Greater Invisibility. Huzzah! :-)
And with Improved Initiative, a good Dex and maybe that elven trait that gives you +2 to initiative you'd easily get a 10+ to initiative (enter Quick Draw!)
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