As Jason has stated, Concentration is dead as a skill. It's inclusion into Spellcraft is not entirely optimal and Jason has asked whether some replacement mechanics would not be better - notably Will Save or Caster Level.
My thoughts are that yes, either of these would be better than having concentration under Spellcraft. Even Fort Save would be a better choice for this task than Spellcraft, though I think using a Will Save is preferable.
Out of those mechanics, I prefer using the Will Save for thematic reasons. Mechanically speaking, though, Caster Level would be most compatible with existing DCs and would not favor Wisdom-based classes.
I like all those ideas, but my thematic choice is a Fort save, to highlight the Constitution connection and make sure that those frail wizards still invest in their bodies. That said, making it a save either strongly favours the divine casters (good Fort saves) or slightly favours them (higher Wisdom scores). The caster check with the same modifiers as before might be the best option.
Caster Check + Key Ability (or change the DCs).
Either Spellcraft or Knowledge(Arcana) must go. (Spellcraft, methinks.)
I most definitely do not want Knowledge: Arcana to go. It would be like some eldritch Cthuloid terror sliming its way out of the pit if Arcana vanished, yet Spellcraft remained.
As Jason has stated, Concentration is dead as a skill. It's inclusion into Spellcraft is not entirely optimal and Jason has asked whether some replacement mechanics would not be better - notably Will Save or Caster Level.
My thoughts are that yes, either of these would be better than having concentration under Spellcraft. Even Fort Save would be a better choice for this task than Spellcraft, though I think using a Will Save is preferable.
Out of those mechanics, I prefer using the Will Save for thematic reasons. Mechanically speaking, though, Caster Level would be most compatible with existing DCs and would not favor Wisdom-based classes.
Those are good points.
Caster level would also favor characters who focused on primarily being a caster and who'd focused on developing that ability. This fits with Paizo's intent to encourage players to stick with a class.
It might however, hurt gish builds, who really do need to cast in-combat--they'll likely have Practiced Spellcaster or something similar anyhow, however--although that feat isn't Pathfinder.
Then again, they're probably casting lower-level spells anyhow. Rangers and paladins would be in the same boat: their spells just don't go over level 4.
Well a simple CLC + CON Bonus would be roughly equal to Concentration right now. I like using CON because it's class neutral and considering most Concentration checks are the result of a physical shock it makes sense to me that Constitution would be the attribute that would represent your ability to resist physical shock.
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Caster Check + Key Ability (or change the DCs).
Either Spellcraft or Knowledge(Arcana) must go. (Spellcraft, methinks.)
Re: this, my perspective is Knowledge(Arcana) is knowing how to work on a car, where Spellcraft is knowing how to race one. They do kind of overlap, but definitely have different practical applications. I'd like to see both skills stay :)
Edit: CLC + CON does sound like a good replacement for Concentration.
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I'm all for an alternate mechanic for Concentration. Making it a save would be good.
On the other hand, I think that if that is done, Spellcraft should be retired as a skill. Making it a function of Knowledge: Arcana (for arcane spells) or Knowledge: Religon (for divine spells) just seems to make thematic sense. A wizard trained in arcane knowledge should not be able to apply the same skill when attempting to recognis=ze a divine spell.
In order to avoid abuse of this consolidation, make it a function that can only be used trained.
I also favor rolling Spellcraft into Knowledge: Arcana for arcane casters. Divine casters would use Knowledge:Religion for the same purpose. It never made sense to have these as separate skills in the first place and it is often unclear which of the skills should be used in a given situation. Yes, there is the one is 'practical' and another is 'theoretical', but this distinction is feeble at best, since Spellcraft is used to identify spells and magical effects... Spellcraft would make sense as a separate skill if it somehow was used in casting or magic item creation. I don't know whether this would impact balance though - probably not.
I also favor rolling Spellcraft into Knowledge: Arcana for arcane casters. Divine casters would use Knowledge:Religion for the same purpose. It never made sense to have these as separate skills in the first place and it is often unclear which of the skills should be used in a given situation. Yes, there is the one is 'practical' and another is 'theoretical', but this distinction is feeble at best, since Spellcraft is used to identify spells and magical effects... Spellcraft would make sense as a separate skill if it somehow was used in casting or magic item creation. I don't know whether this would impact balance though - probably not.
I agree, I see no real need for two separate skills here. I honestly don't care which one goes and which one says as long as whet you can do remains. I also think that it wold make sense to use whichever skill stayed to identify magic items instead of the appraise skill. I do have a slight preference of which one to keep. I would rather keep Spellcraft but my resoning for it is quite feeble; it is simply because I think spellcraft sounds more cool than knowledge (arcana) then of course there are those dang parenthesese (why coldn't it just be called Arcane Knowledge, I understand that it is so it could fit under the "knowledge" broad skill but still I like names that are flavorful rather than just functional). As far as the concentartion mechanic, I say yes substitute something like a caster level check + the relevant spell casting ability modifier. I think this option is better than using a save because it puts all casters on potentially equal footing as long as they keep their relevant spell casting ability modifier up there, and what caster worth his salt would fail to do this?I think for higher level spellcasters, whether arcane, divine or even psionisists (I know they are not spellcasters but they are functionally similar)that a concentration check shold be a reletively minor thing except in extreme circumstances. In fantasy fiction it is the lower levels who are likely to blow concentration, not the higher levels, though they might on a very rare occasion or at dramatically appropriate moments. I think a caster should use the abiliy that he or she is practiced in most for this check (thus the caster level check with a bonus from the spellcasting ability modifier) because casters who are going to be using magic in combat situations train for just this sort of thing so let them be really good at it just like fighters are really good at brawling and grappling. We cold also use this as a unfied mechanic across the board for any class that uses spells or manifests some sort of power, psionics, incarnum, crap even super powers if you want to put 'em in yer fantasy game.
Charles
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My question is how any of this would apply to non-spell casters. I just imagine a situation where a rogue is trying to foil a trap and gets hit by something or pick a lock in a storm, situations where she would need to concentrate. Or a bard was trying to perform while dodging tomatoes. Not sure if fighters have anything equivalent.
Seems to me the Level+Con mod formula would be appropriate in these cases as well. The higher your level, the better you'd be at staying focused and/or doing it quickly enough to shrug off the distraction, plus you physical toughness would be a factor.
There could be a feat to make it based on Wisdom or Charisma instead (*A part of me still believes Will saves should be based on Charisma-force-of-personality rather than Wisdom-judgment.*).
As far as keeping Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana), I'd favor Knowledge (arcana) because other classes don't have associated _X_craft skills but most do have Knowledge skills. It seems more fair and consistent. There is no Prayercraft skill but there is Knowledge (religion). There is no Thievery or Streetwise skill but there is Knowledge (local). There is no Warcraft skill but there is Knowledge (engineering) and probably ought to be a Knowledge (warfare). I'd love it if every class had a Knowledge skill.
I would point out that spellcraft has more uses than just avoiding AoO's and keeping a spell while being hit:
1. Identifying a spell that's being cast.
2. Identifying an ongoing spell (or magical) effects.
3. Learning new spells for a wizard.
4. Researching new spells for anyone.
Knowledge(arcana) - knowledge of magical places, monsters, and history.
Spellcraft - the actual knowledge and practice of spell theory.
It's the difference between:
Knowledge(technology) - the knowledge of computers, designers, and history of computers.
and
Computer Programming - the actual knowledge and practice of programming a computer.
Rolling Spellcraft into Knowledge(arcana) would be like rolling Computer Programming into Knowledge(technology) -- they just aren't the same thing.
Otherwise Knowledge(guns) should make me a gunsmith, and believe me I'm no gunsmith!
Also Knowledge(religion) is the knowledge of dogma, rituals, hierarchy, and teachings of religions (not just the priest's own), not the ability to cast spells (which is again a class feature),
Other classes beyond Cleric and Druid have good reason to take Knowledge(religion) how else are you going to know if that priest really is a priest of your god giving you instructions and not just some actor that wants to trick you into doing something?
********************** same idea different rant **********
On further examination of the text of said skills I must say I don't like that Knowledge(arcana) has become spellcraft. That's just not right for the reasons I listed above, and from a game balance perspective it cheapens Knowledge(arcana) true nature becuase all spellcasters are going to take it to just to be able to identify magical effects and spells, which is exactly what spellcraft should be used for!
Well, there is a certain level of abstraction inherent in any roleplaying system. In a not terribly technical game, I'd be miffed if I took Knowledge: Technology and then also had to take Computer Programming, whereas in a game like Shadowrun, different skills are expected!
If Concentration comes back out of Spellcraft, we are still left with "skill tax", particularly in light of all the skill consolidation going on. Fitting practical spell-casting into the three "magical" Knowledge skills (Arcana, Nature, Religion) would eliminate Spellcraft and allow casters to concentrate on other skills, especially with their generally very low skill points.
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My question is how any of this would apply to non-spell casters.
This is by far my biggest problem with the current rules and the suggested ones, but unlike you I don't really like the level check idea. I like the idea that concentrating under pressure/pain is something that a character can improve at (but doesn't improve at automatically as they progress, which is what a level check is).
Ok, so what skill does the rogue that wants to know spell theory take? Which knowledge would he grab? Would he need all three? Would he need each one to understand each type of spell? And why would someone that wants to know a bit about nature/religion/arcane history suddenly understand magic too?
What about a wizard? How would his Knowledge(arcana) help him understand a priest's spell? How does the same priest use his Knowledge(religion) to understand the wizard's fireball?
Spellcraft cuts across all of that. To understand spells you use spellcraft, to know about religious matters, nature, or acrane matters you use the appropriate spell.
For further consideration I point out the following:
Perception and Sense Motive
Acrobatics and Climb
Survival and Handle Animal
Knowledge(nature) and Handle Animal
These are each very similar, but they still aren't the same thing, and people aren't claiming they are skill taxes.
Spellcraft is similar to Knowledge(arcana) but that doesn't make it the same thing, they both have very good and distinct uses that should be kept seperate of each other.
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These are each very similar, but they still aren't the same thing, and people aren't claiming they are skill taxes.
It seems to me more that it's a matter of too-low skill points. Doesn't tend to bother the Wizard, as they have high Int so get extra points, but it sort of blows for other casters. However, I don't like the idea that forced skill consolidation is the solution when the skills are, you as point out, sufficient distinct to remain distinct. It seems to me that the classes effectively need more skill points and although I know that Jason doesn't want to do that (and I can understand his lack of enthusiasm for that option) it has to be better than mangling the skills.
Spellcraft still needs to be cleaned of the extraneous Knowledge: Arcana references, if it is to be kept. After all, you identify strange and unique magic effects and recognise bizarre magical materials, not with Knowledge: Arcana but with Spellcraft, which is definitely stepping on the knowledge's toes.
I like the level+con bonus for replacing concentration. It keeps things simple and fair.
Spellcraft is a least favorite skill of mine and I would love to see it rolled into Knowledge Arcana. I usually pick Spellcraft when I'm making a character, but not because I like it. It's just that it's required in order to make Detect Magic actually work. So far that's the single only use I've ever found for the skill.
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Looks like I'm a little late to this party...
The big thing that bothers me about concentration being removed is that there were a number of martial classes that used it for martial things.
I realize Jason's not going to bring it back, his games, like most, didn't use it for what it was originally intended. And I understand that. The question remains, how do we fix compatibility with all these other classes?
That's what I'm concerned with. For these particular instances it seems like a level check + 3 + con mod would be close, but it should probably have something to do with martial classes, which seems to suggest BAB.
I don't know, what do you think?
It seems to me that a Rogue could specialise in doing their things under duress and that duress doesn't have to be combat-related (it could be raining fire while he tries to pick the lock to the shelter...) so I don't really want it tied to BAB. Also, as I said above, I want it to be learnable or somehow a function of choice whether a character, of any class, gets better at doing stuff in the face of distraction, which is why I like it as a skill (but it should be a class skill for everyone).
Caster Check + Key Ability (or change the DCs).
Either Spellcraft or Knowledge(Arcana) must go. (Spellcraft, methinks.)
Yes, turn concentration checks into caster level + key ability checks.
Spellcraft could indeed be stomped, its effects be included in the right knowledge skills:
Wizard and Sorcerer magic would be part of knowledge [arcana], cleric and paladin [religion], ranger and druid [nature]. And, if it ever comes to that, psicraft would become [psionics].
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Yes, turn concentration checks into caster level + key ability checks.
And what about someone picking a lock, or use another skill, under duress? A character level check (so a different mechanic to the spellcasting concentration, which is a caster level check)?
I just don't see why concentration had to go.
I just don't see why concentration had to go.
I wouldn't mind it staying, either, though it does punish those clerics and sorcerers (both don't have that many skill points to play with).
A decent way to let concentration really stand on its own (rather than a spellcaster's function) is to introduce more effects. I suggest stuff from autohypnosis (the skill from the psionics handbook). I also suggest changing it from con to wis.
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I wouldn't mind it staying, either, though it does punish those clerics and sorcerers (both don't have that many skill points to play with).A decent way to let concentration really stand on its own (rather than a spellcaster's function) is to introduce more effects. I suggest stuff from autohypnosis (the skill from the psionics handbook). I also suggest changing it from con to wis.
Agreed. Must be some other stuff that could be chucked in there, too (and it should be a class skill for everyone, in my opinion).
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I just did a writeup on Concentration checks for my own game, which is basically to cover other actions (such as skill checks) which formerly required a Concentration check but aren't covered under Spellcraft in PRPG.
Essentially, it's d20 roll + relevant ability modifier for the action + bonus equal to the number of levels in any classes which include the action as a class skill or ability. If there's no relevant ability modifier for the action, add your CON modifier and your bonus for class levels to the d20 roll.
For example, a Ftr 6/Rog 4 making a Concentration check while climbing would add STR modifier plus 10 for Fighter and Rogue class levels (Climb is a class skill for both classes) to a d20 roll. A Clr 6/Rog 4 in the same situation would add STR modifier plus 4 for Rogue levels (Climb isn't a class skill for Clerics) to a d20 roll.
Otherwise, I just copied the Concentration skill description from the SRD, removed all the stuff about making Concentration checks for spellcasting, added a line under "Special" that "Concentration checks" can be chosen when taking the Skill Focus feat, and ... done.
Personally, I think that concentration to maintain casting, or continuing to pick a lock and other such efforts should be combined with the checks to hold your breath, or run for long periods, and other activities that require "Constitution checks".
It could all be wrapped up in one skill. It's a little 4e, what with the Endurance skill, I know but all those situations seem pretty similar so shouldn't they all run on a similar mechanic?
I quite like the idea of a skill for non-magical Concentration and to replace the Endurance feat, though it would mean that the ranger 3rd-level ability would need to be revised. People who hate 4th Ed would complain all the more loudly though.
I quite like the idea of a skill for non-magical Concentration and to replace the Endurance feat, though it would mean that the ranger 3rd-level ability would need to be revised. People who hate 4th Ed would complain all the more loudly though.
I hate 4E, but I wouldn't complain about an Endurance skill replacing the Endurance feat and Concentration skill. In fact, I have been musing about doing this in my home game for a long time (but haven't implemented it). It is, however, not going to happen - the skill list is set, so we are better off trying to discuss other approaches.
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*If* there is to be a Concentration skill, it should includes elements of
Autohypnosis as well (ignore the sci-fi sounding name, think of it as 'Focus' or 'Determination' or 'Willpower').
Adding these options would make it more useful to non-spellcasters, and thus worthy of being a skill in it's own right. And it's OGL / in the SRD, so we don't have to worry about it not being 'kosher.'
People who hate 4th Ed would complain all the more loudly though.
Let them. A good workable idea is a good workable idea. Doesn't matter if it comes from Jason Buhlman, Mike Mearls or Satan.