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Hello All, I have tried to compile a list of all the different alternate rules, errata, clarifications and expansions posted on these messageboards by many people. (And especially by James Jacobs and Jason Nelson). I hope this overview helps people who are looking for answers & ideas.
Included are:
Errata and Clarifications
Questions & Answers
Alternate Rules
Non-City Expansions
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General:
Command DC and Control DC are the same thing.
Buildings:
The following errata were mentioned on the paizo messageboards by James Jacobs and Jason Bulman.
Barracks (6 BP):Defense Modifier +2; Unrest –1.
Exotic Craftsman (10 BP):1 minor item, +1 Economy, +1 Stability.
Graveyard (4 BP): +1 loyalty
Watchtower (12 BP): +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier; Unrest –1.
Below can be found a collection of questions & Answers from the Paizo Messageboards.
Leadership Roles
Q: What are the rules for wearing more than one 'hat'? For example what if a pc wants to be the High-priest and Councilor? Or Ruler and General etc?
A: Yup; only one hat per character. This is partially because there's a sort of balance of power thing; if one character wears too many hats, then suddenly he has too much power. It's also to help prevent a calamity in case your kingdom loses that character; if a leader dies or quits or whatever, you have only one vacancy. But if he was in multiple spots, suddenly you have lots of vacancies.
The MAIN reason, though, is that we want to have NPCs in there as fellow leaders. This makes for a more entertaining gameplay experience if not all of the slots are taken up by players, and gives the GM a chance to exert some influence over the kingdom as NPC co-leaders. Also, there are lots of events that involve leaders having problems or scandals or the like, and it's usually better to just say that a scandal involves an NPC than forcing some sort of situation on a player.
And also, by limiting the roles to one character, this forces the players to actually have to make some choices.
Expansion & Hexes
Q: I'm assuming that the players start out by deciding on their starting hex, and then must expand out from that hex at the usual speed and BP costs? Basically, they don't get any 'free' hexes added on, even if they've explored and subdued them, right?
A: Correct. No free hexes. First you have to spend the time to explore the hex, and then you have to claim the hex; two steps.
Roads & Rivers
Q: What are the effects of roads & rivers on travel?
A: The effects of roads and rivers on travel time are covered in the Pathfinder Core RPG, in Chapter 7. (These factors weren't really talked about in the exploration phase since you can't build roads until a hex is claimed, and you can't claim a hex until it's explored.) By building roads, you're making it easier to move around in your kingdom, which is why you gain those bonuses to Economy and Stability.
Rivers do not count as roads for farms, and they actually can cause more problems than they solve for travel, since you can't cross them easily at most locations. Again, rules for river travel itself are found in Chapter 7 of the Pathfinder RPG.
Q: Just for clarification, I assume Roads are the same as Roads/Trails in chapter 7 of PFRPG Core and not Highways?
A: Correct. Roads are roads. Highways are something else entirely, and are beyond the scope of the rules as they currently stand.
Experience Points:
Q: On the Gaining Experience chart for different kingdom accomplishments, are those numbers per PC or to be divided among PCs?
A: All XP awards are divided among PCs. We'll say if an XP award is ever for a single PC, and I highly doubt we'll EVER do that since it's not really fair or in the spirit of the Pathfinder RPG.
Consumption:
Q: Can the consumption of a kingdom be negative? If a kingdom has many farms and not so many non-farm hexes and cities, it would be possible that 2 times the number of farms is bigger than the size plus the city districts. In this case, would the kingdom actually gain BPs from consumption?
A: No, consumption can't go below zero.
Economy:
Q: In generating income it says to make an economy check against your command DC and if successful divide the result by 5 and add that amount to your treasury. If I had a +12 and rolled a 13 that would be 25. The DC would be 21. Do I divide 25 by 5 to get 5 BP or the 25 minus the DC of 21 to get 0 BP? I think it is the 5 BP but wanted to check.
A: That is correct. Successful check = divide result by 5, get that many BP. Failed check = you get nothing.
Edicts:
Q: What do you do with the Edict Penalty reduction in the case of multiple cities having Cathedrals, Arenas, or Waterfronts? Do you halve each time?
A: Nope; one four-square building is enough to halve the cost of edict penalties. Multiple arenas, cathedrals, or waterfronts don't further reduce overall edict penalties (but multiple arenas, cathedrals, or waterfronts DO have a cumulative effect otherwise).
Q: Upkeep Phase Step 2 (Pay Consumption) precedes that month’s Improvement Phase Step 6 (Edicts), so how one can determine the increase of Consumption by Edicts? By previous month’s Edicts? Or should a Ruler declare that month’s Edicts before Improvement Phase?
A: A change to edicts doesn't affect the consumption for that month; it takes a bit for the change to go into effect, and so won't hit consumption until the next turn's Upkeep.
Q: More important question. It seems that Festivals are measured by numbers per Year. But Consumption and Loyalty are needed by monthly rate. How does it work? For example, does “No Festival per Year” mean “Loyalty -1 at the end of 12 consecutive months with no Festivals”?
A: As for the festivals, the number per year is as much the number you actually hold as it is the number you promise, and the number that the common folk prepare for and look forward to over the months. This assumes that the king isn't lying when he tells the commoners "we'll have 12 festivals this year!" You get the stat changes automatically, in other words; if you reduce the number per year later, the modifiers change then.
Buildings:
Q: Are the unrest increases and reductions from buildings one time effects on the build turn, or are they ongoing?
A: Unrest reductions and increases occur only once, when the building is created. Unrest can get out of hand really fast, so a recurring unrest effect would be really bad.
Q: For the buildings that are required to be "Adjacent" to a house, what counts as Adjacent??
A: Anything counts as adjacent; left, right, above, below, diagonal, or even across streets. However, you can't "double duty" a house. Once it's used as a prerequisite for another building, it can't serve as a prerequisite for a second building.
Q: Is the Tenement supposed to act as a house?
A: Yes. Tenements act as houses for the purposes of fulfilling the requirement; they're basically a good way to build cheap houses since the unrest only hits you on the turn you build the house.
Cities:
Q: Is there a limit on the number of districts you can have in a city?
A: Not really. A GM can certainly limit the number of districts a party puts in a single city if he wants, but multiple districts would be the only way you'd ever be able to model a really BIG city, after all. A city the size of Westcrown would take, IIRC, nearly 30 city grid districts. Of course, your kingdom needs to be able to AFFORD all of those districts!
Magic Items:
Q: How often can you attempt to sell a magic item per phase?
A: You can attempt to sell a magic item once per Income phase per district. So if you only have one city, you can only try to sell one item per Income phase. But if you have multiple cities (or a city of multiple districts) you can try to sell a magic item from EACH district
Q: How are items that the PC’s want to sell (and thus convert directly to BPs) classified? If they've found a +1 sword while adventuring, is it a minor or medium magic item? It appears on both lists so can they choose or is it automatically the lower (or higher)? I can see circumstances where each of the two options might be better.
A: An item that appears on both lists should always default to the lesser. So a +1 sword would count as a minor magic item.
Q: The city is created and the magic shop ends up having an item a particular Ruling PC wants but doesn't want to pay for, I mean after all he is the King/Ruling Elite and he and his friends created this Kingdom. So he demands it or demands half price for himself. What are the possible ramifications of this for the kingdom? Is there citywide Unrest? A special Event?
A: Just treat withdrawing items from the public the same as withdrawing money. The rules are already there in the Economy phase. +1 Unrest for the cash grab, regardless of amount. Then, a Loyalty check equal to +1/2000 gp withdrawn. If the check fails, you gain 1 unrest/2000 gp withdrawn.
Reserved for additional Q&A
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Some alternate rules as found on the messageboards can be found below. (Jason Nelson, and James Jacobs)
Event Phase:
During the event phase you can hire adventurers:
Hiring Adventurers: By hiring adventurers, the PCs can effectively purchase one time bonuses to any Economy, Loyalty, or Stability checks made as a result of a kingdom event. A group of low-level adventurers (level 1–2) grants a +2 bonus on the check but costs 4 BP. A group of mid-level adventurers (level 3–5) grants a +5 bonus on the check but costs 8 BP. A group of high-level adventurers (level 6 or higher, but never higher than the PCs’ Average Party Level) grants a +10 bonus on the check but costs 16 BP.
Full Time Rulers:
If a character spends time doing nothing but rule for the month, you get +4 to each ruler's contribution.
Leadership Feat:
The leadership feat grants a bonus to your ruler bonus for whatever your role as leader is. Equal to +1 for each 10 points of your Leadership score. This represents a PC’s followers acting as their agents and loyal and efficient infrastructure throughout the kingdom, spreading good word of mouth, setting a good example for others, relaying rumors of unrest or honest assessments of the needs of the kingdom from the grassroots level back to the leadership, and generally being model citizens.
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Presented below are additional buildings and improvements that can be build outside of cities. Please note that constructing any of these improvements takes the place of the "build a farm" action in your kingdom turn.
Please also note that Camps, Farms and Mines are mutually exclusive - you can have a farm OR a mine OR a camp in a hex. None of these improvements represent a single building in a 12-mile hex. It's not just one farm, or just one mine, or just one camp. Building means you have devoted the primary physical and human resources of that hex to the activity of farming (farm), mining (mine) or logging (camp).
Camp: (6 BP) A logging camp can be build in a forest area with a road or river. +1 Economy, +1 Stability. The economy bonus is doubled if the hex contains a resource like rare lumber: +2 Economy, +2 Stability.
Fort: (12 BP). A sturdy structure that serves as a guard post and lookout for danger. +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier; Unrest –1. A fort can be build in any hex containing a road or river, even if a camp, farm or mine has already been established. If a city is built in an area with a fort, the fort is treated as a watchtower.
Lock: (8 BP). A lock allows ships to traverse along height differences in a river. A Lock turns three hexes of unnavigable rivers navigable and provides a +2 Economy bonus.
Mine: (6 BP) A mine is used for recovering valuable or less valuables minerals, ores and gems. A mine can be built in hills or mountains if a road or river is present. +1 Economy, +1 Stability. The economy bonus is doubled if the hex contains a resource like gold or silver ore: +2 Economy, +2 Stability.
Rivers: Much like roads, rivers can be used for commerce. For every 4 hexes of navigable rivers your kingdom controls that contain navigable rivers, you gain +1 Economy. (Yes, hexes with a river and a road count for both.)
Terraforming: Instead of building a farm hex, you can convert a forest hex into hills or a swamp into grassland. This takes 6 months and costs 24 BP. You could also plant a forest in a grassland or hills hex for the same cost. You continue to gain the benefits of a camp during terraforming, but at the end of the terraforming it is destroyed.
The following sheets provide support for the Kingmaker Kingdom Systems:
Berhagen's Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet V1.1.
Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet .
R-Kelleg's Kingmaker Sheet:
Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet .
Nice work!
Great work!
I have one question:
Lock: (8 BP). A lock allows ships to traverse along height differences in a river. A Lock turns three hexes of unnavigable rivers navigable and provides a +2 Economy bonus.
Where does the lock come from? I couldn't find it on the forums.
It also seems pretty cheap.
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The following sheets provide support for the Kingmaker Kingdom Systems:
R-Kelleg's Kingmaker Sheet:
Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet .
the correct link to my sheet is
this one :)it alos exist in version française
but I might need to correct it to reflect those changes.
Thanks for your work, it helps a lot!
I would like to bring in something that worries me.
Several buildings halve the cost of lesser bulidings. So from a pure numerical point it would be wise to build them first.
That streches my sense of fantasy quite a bit as a settlement tends to start with the lesser buildings first.
What do you all think about reducing the cost of the higher building by the amount it would have saved on a lesser buliding if this building is already completed (turning the synergy around)?
Several buildings halve the cost of lesser bulidings. So from a pure numerical point it would be wise to build them first.
What do you all think about reducing the cost of the higher building by the amount it would have saved on a lesser buliding if this building is already completed (turning the synergy around)?
Before we make any changes of this sort it would be prudent to hear from the developers why they made this design decision. After that, if we disagree, we should change - but none of us are good enough with the system yet to have a good "feel" for it.
Two small problems I see with your solution:
1) Typically, you'd only be building one of the expensive structure, but potentially many of the cheaper structures. Thus the savings are realized repeatedly. If you switch it around, then the savings are only realized once. In the end, you've made the overal city more expensive.
2) Think of it a little bit like building a character: when you're a low-level wizard, you're probably not going to be spending any money on scrolls (that leftover change has to go towards healing potions!). A mid-level wizard will select some choice low level spells that he doesn't want to prep. A high-level wizard carries around a veritable library of every spell 1st through 3rd level, several times over.
As you "level up" it gets easier to get the cheap stuff. Your city is leveling up.
Creative Director
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You'll note that all the buildings that reduce cost of smaller buildings themselves take up more than one square. Since they take up more than one square, they reduce your available building space in a district faster, and therefore we wanted to give these buildings an additional bonus for building them. Granting discounts to smaller buildings is what we decided on.
Whether or not you want to build them first so as you can save money in the long run, or save money in the short run by not building these much more expensive structures and only building smaller stuff depends on how much BP you have, and whether you personally prefer the short term or the long term solution to saving money.
If you make it so that building lots of smaller buildings reduces the cost of the bigger buildings, you basically remove that element of choice and make it so that the ONLY way someone would ever build is small to large. Which is fine if you're comfortable with penalizing people for wanting to build a big thing first that can serve as an "anchor" of sorts for the smaller buildings, I guess.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The other thing to think about is how long it will take for you to get a return on investment for building one big building instead of a bunch of smaller ones.
A. For 55 BP you can buy:
Academy - +2 Economy, +2 Loyalty, 3 minor, 2 medium
Library - +1 Economy, +1 Loyalty
Total +3/+3
B. For 54 BP you can buy:
Caster's Tower - +1 Economy, +1 Loyalty, 3 minor, 2 medium
4 Libraries - +4 Economy, +4 Loyalty
Total +5/+5
C. For 54 BP you can buy:
9 Libraries - +9 Economy, +9 Loyalty (but no magic items)
Total +9/+9
If you want to spam low-cost buildings you can stack up bigger bonuses than buying larger individual units. You can also start accruing those bonuses faster (in terms of BP cost) and be enjoying immediate return on investment. You can enjoy your kingdom roll bonuses while you're saving up for big stuff later on.
It also allows you to maximize your versatility - by not bankrupting yourself for one type of building, you can afford to pump up EACH of your stats and no totally sacrifice one.
One advantage of starting with bigger buildings is that EVENTUALLY you can turn that cost differential around. True, B and C give you bigger bonuses, but every library for B and C after that point costs twice what it does for A.
It's also more efficient in terms of actions - in the early stages of your kingdom, you can only build one building per round, whether it be cheap or expensive. Building cheaper buildings saves you BP; it doesn't save you actions. A can be built in two turns, B in five, C in nine. Of course, A might bankrupt you on the first turn and you'll be limping along with dumps and graveyards for the next few turns... :)
You also start getting EXTRA CANDY with more expensive buildings. No amount of libraries will give you magic items, or increase the GP limit of your town, or any of the non-kingdom-roll stuff that mostly only comes with bigger buildings. You build your academy (or other magic item) building right away, and you can start pumping out items for your economy. You build up your gp limit and you can buy potions and scrolls and minor magic in your own town and not need to trek up to Restov the next time someone dies and has to get brought back.
So... there are already advantages to pursuing each strategy.
Thank you Berhagen! Just discovered this thread. :D
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Are the non-city buildings official, or are they home rules?
-Kle.Home rules.
Officially, only cities can have buildings.
Which I have been using. The players already invested in one. It hasn't been a problem and in fact, it's been a nice addition both in flavor and mechanics.
Robert
Glad you enjoyed!
Doting
Because an Inn is not a Tavern. Why be a Warrior when a Fighter one feat more for the same thing?
Bump. Wanted to see if there were any new updates.
Specifically, Inn vs. Tavern. Why buy a tavern when an Inn is 2 BP less for the same thing?
One reason is that the theater gives you taverns at half price. Sure, markets make inns half price, but markets are more expensive then theaters. It depends on what else you build in your city.
Dotting so I can find it...
Great work!
I have one question:
Lock: (8 BP). A lock allows ships to traverse along height differences in a river. A Lock turns three hexes of unnavigable rivers navigable and provides a +2 Economy bonus.
Where does the lock come from? I couldn't find it on the forums.
It also seems pretty cheap.
This is a great thread, thanks to everyone who's been posting new info on it.
But I have few questions:
First, with locks. They're meant to be used on 'unnavigable' rivers. Now, I only have one of the Kingmaker books ('Rivers Run Red'), so maybe this is elsewhere, but... what is the difference on the map between navigable and unnavigable rivers?
Secondly, has anyone done any ruling on certain buildings that you need to have? Like a Granary to counter increased Consumption in winter (winters might get mighty hungry else), or a barracks or garrison to raise troops?
It seems more realistic that way as well as a way of avoding some of the lunacy seen here on the forums, like that one group that had a city of nothing but brothels and monuments.
Stolen Land Correction and Calendar Issue:
1st: Am I correct that the charter should read 24 miles East and 36 miles West or some of the encounters are outside the charter area.
2nd: The charter was issued on 25th day of Talistril, Umm that I think translates to February. The adventures is only a few hundred miles form the polar North, OK so is the charter incorrect? Any idea what month it is supposed to be? Is it summer in February on this planet in this area?
Thoughts?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Stolen Land Correction and Calendar Issue:
1st: Am I correct that the charter should read 24 miles East and 36 miles West or some of the encounters are outside the charter area.
2nd: The charter was issued on 25th day of Talistril, Umm that I think translates to February. The adventures is only a few hundred miles form the polar North, OK so is the charter incorrect? Any idea what month it is supposed to be? Is it summer in February on this planet in this area?
Thoughts?
Not sure right now about your first question, but as for the second one, it's definitely winter when that charter is issued. So, two solutions: one, it's ass cold when the party sets out, with snow on the ground and everything, and two, the party spends several months planning and recruiting for the expedition.
Stolen Land Correction and Calendar Issue:
1st: Am I correct that the charter should read 24 miles East and 36 miles West or some of the encounters are outside the charter area.
It's probably from an earlier template of the map where Oleg's is in the middle hex. I guess you'd have to make it "24 miles east and 48 miles west". The intent is "the top half of the map".
2nd: The charter was issued on 25th day of Talistril, Umm that I think translates to February. The adventures is only a few hundred miles form the polar North, OK so is the charter incorrect? Any idea what month it is supposed to be? Is it summer in February on this planet in this area? Thoughts?
Nope, it is still winter when things start. Our group had tons of snowy/muddy days of exploration. Try trudging through "knee-high" deep snow when you're a gnome!
As to the location and it's proximity to the north pole, I think that it's more than a few hundred miles. In fact, with the new material being put out ... there is a new map of the world. Despite our original map containing a "white edge" to the north to suggest ice caps ... the big map shows an entire continent to the north of Avistan :)
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Stolen Land Correction and Calendar Issue:
2nd: The charter was issued on 25th day of Talistril, Umm that I think translates to February. The adventures is only a few hundred miles form the polar North, OK so is the charter incorrect? Any idea what month it is supposed to be? Is it summer in February on this planet in this area?Thoughts?
The date is "Calistril". I had a hard time with that capital C too. :)
It is February. Cold and snowy, given how much water is in the area.
Great stuff, posting so I can find it again.
But I have few questions:
First, with locks. They're meant to be used on 'unnavigable' rivers. Now, I only have one of the Kingmaker books ('Rivers Run Red'), so maybe this is elsewhere, but... what is the difference on the map between navigable and unnavigable rivers?
There is a ford on the Thorn River where the water is only 3 feet deep, that may make it unnavigable in that hex.
However, there is really only one river where locks are important (and really justify the Econ bonus). That is the Shrike River. The Shrike is explicitly described as being perfect for a trade route between Brevoy and the River Kingdoms, *except* that it has several falls on the north end, making it unnavigable. Those falls are mrked in Varnhold Vanishing.
Putting locks in that area would mean that an entire new trade route opens up through the Greenbelt, completely bypassing the Hooktongue Slough.
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Alrighty, i have a serious question. My DM has apparently not done a lot of research on kingmaker. He has some very peculiar rules and it is making life hard for his players, including me. He hasn't given the players a list of the buildings we can build, what they give for bonuses, how much they cost or if they give the 1/2 off certain smaller buildings. He also doesn't roll for magic items, doesn't add the benefit for having lots of road hexes, ignores half of the special resources, and doesn't add in the +1 BP surplus for making the Stability check. He even cuts and pastes the pictures of the buildings onto the city grid. The players are getting fed up and frankly, are very bored with city building since we feel we are shooting in the dark in a loosing battle.
What i am looking for is what other DM's have done with these issues. Is there a precedent? Maybe a forum i can send him to so he doesn't feel like he is "spoiling" the adventure by turning over some things to the players. Since i am the most skilled of our players, a lot of the leadership of the game has been turned over to me. The other players spend 3/4 of the game with their forehead on the table, almost asleep.
Hmm, there isn't a wrong way or a right way to run Kingmaker except ONE major rule -- If your group is falling as sleep or getting frustrated your GM is failing epically. The building facet of Kingmaker should be fun if not run it in the background, even though the gm seems to want to make it especially difficult for you.
Dotting for reference. Great job! :)
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Edicts:
Q: What do you do with the Edict Penalty reduction in the case of multiple cities having Cathedrals, Arenas, or Waterfronts? Do you halve each time?
A: Nope; one four-square building is enough to halve the cost of edict penalties. Multiple arenas, cathedrals, or waterfronts don't further reduce overall edict penalties (but multiple arenas, cathedrals, or waterfronts DO have a cumulative effect otherwise).
what cumulataive effect? halving the cost of their associated buildings?
what cumulataive effect? halving the cost of their associated buildings?Edicts:
Q: What do you do with the Edict Penalty reduction in the case of multiple cities having Cathedrals, Arenas, or Waterfronts? Do you halve each time?
A: Nope; one four-square building is enough to halve the cost of edict penalties. Multiple arenas, cathedrals, or waterfronts don't further reduce overall edict penalties (but multiple arenas, cathedrals, or waterfronts DO have a cumulative effect otherwise).
The cumulative effect meaning the bonuses to Loyalty, Economy, and Stability.
In Part 1, p 57 under Movement in the Stolen Lands it says:
"Each hex on the map ... is 12 miles across (between opposite corners) and covers just under 150 square miles of area."
This seems like a mistake - if the hex is 12 miles from corner to corner, that would only be 93.5 square miles. If the hex is 12 miles across from face to face, it would be about 124.7 square miles. Was there ever any official errata about this? (I looked but didn't find any - I found this forum topic instead! :) Or is my math wrong?
Ref: area of a hex: if d is from corner to corner: d * d * 3 * sqrt(3) / 8
if d is from side to side: d * d * sqrt(3) / 2
I'm trying to adapt the exploration rules to an old homebrew map with different hex sizes so I was going to use the area to scale the time costs.
Thanks!