"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. "
Bolded for emphasis.
If I transform my consular imp familiar into a red dragon with Dragon Shape III, does he keep his fast healing and damage reduction abilities? It's hard to tell whether such things are magical in nature, or part of a creature's physical form.
Where does one draw the line on what is or is not "dependent on the original form?"
fast healing is an extraordinary ability (Beastiary p.300).
DR is either extraordinary or supernatural (p.299).
so he'd lose them both. basically, look up the ability if it's spell-like, then you're fine. if ex or sup then you lose it.
fast healing is an extraordinary ability (Beastiary p.300).
DR is either extraordinary or supernatural (p.299).so he'd lose them both. basically, look up the ability if it's spell-like, then you're fine. if ex or sup then you lose it.
Where does it say that extraordinary/supernatural has any bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is dependent upon form though? I suppose it's a good rule of thumb, but it doesn't appear to be a hard rule. If it were, barbarians would lose their ability to rage.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
Page 212 in the core book. If they are granted by your race and not a class or item then they are form dependent. It does not need to really state that but ask yourself why do I have that ability? is it from an item a class or because of race?
seeker +1. damn you're quick :)
If they are granted by your race and not a class or item then they are form dependent. It does not need to really state that but ask yourself why do I have that ability? is it from an item a class or because of race?
Even abilities that are the result of magic rather than physical anatomy?
Though I don't disagree with your assertion, I still don't think page 212 is as clear cut on the matter as you say (I read it closely before starting the thread and it obviously didn't answer my question to my satisfaction).
What it's saying is at the end of the day, it's the DM's call. My interpretation is that being a devil, its physical anatomy itself is magical.
I've always wondered about what happens when a warforged druid uses wildshape. Or a lich druid, for that matter.
Or a lich druid, for that matter.
Now that you mention it, my sorceress is also a lich, so I really need to know what abilities stay and go (after all, lich is neither race or class, but a template of acquired abilities).
If they are granted by your race and not a class or item then they are form dependent. It does not need to really state that but ask yourself why do I have that ability? is it from an item a class or because of race?Even abilities that are the result of magic rather than physical anatomy?
do you have that magic power because of your race? If so it is form dependent.
Now that you mention it, my sorceress is also a lich, so I really need to know what abilities stay and go (after all, lich is neither race or class, but a template of acquired abilities).
A lich casting polymorph makes my brain divide by zero when I try to figure out what happens. Does it become alive again? Is undeadness a property of form? If it stays undead, why? And what does that do to the properties of the new form?
And given this, what happens when a warforged uses a polymorph ability? Robot dinosaurs?
Or a lich druid, for that matter.Now that you mention it, my sorceress is also a lich, so I really need to know what abilities stay and go (after all, lich is neither race or class, but a template of acquired abilities).
Ya know I think ya would keep them as you would still be dead, pretty sure polymorph spells dont fix dead :) So the lich would still apply as your still dead.
And given this, what happens when a warforged uses a polymorph ability? Robot dinosaurs?
Ya know they are like 90% livewood. So they are mostly plant and are living critters being able to bleed and such. The stone and metal is just the armor [+2ac] but yeah they are plant not flesh still living and not a dead thing
Now that you mention it, my sorceress is also a lich, so I really need to know what abilities stay and go (after all, lich is neither race or class, but a template of acquired abilities).A lich casting polymorph makes my brain divide by zero when I try to figure out what happens. Does it become alive again? Is undeadness a property of form? If it stays undead, why? And what does that do to the properties of the new form?
And given this, what happens when a warforged uses a polymorph ability? Robot dinosaurs?
It is specified that your type doesn't change, so you are still gonna be undead, you just seem living.
It is specified that your type doesn't change, so you are still gonna be undead, you just seem living.
Fair enough, but where is it specified exactly?
Robot dinosaurs?
TRANSFORMERS! (lol)
Now, seriously, this is a hard case. Pathfinder made a point in removing the brokenness of 3.5 Druids, but the end result isn't that simple. I don't think anyone has a clear idea of what exactly happens with their character's abilities. I mean... you have to remove your racial abilities (no more halfling luck, no more orc ferocity) and your Su/Ex abilities (there are some feats that explicitly say their benefit is Ex so they are useless when polymorphed... aren't they?). In fact, a player having a character able to change shape ought to have severa character sheets, one for each shape. And, when making changes (curses, levelling, etc), all sheets have to be modified at the same time. Speak about complexity...
It is specified that your type doesn't change, so you are still gonna be undead, you just seem living.Fair enough, but where is it specified exactly?
I actually thought that it explicitly said that your type does not change, but it doesn't not. It has perhaps been written on the forums.
What is in the text (from page 211 onwards) is that you assume the form of a certain type.
Furthermore the text specifies that "these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.
This disguise checks checks would be rather irrelevant if you by definition became a creature of the assumed type.
I just found Jason clarification here:
Extracted from the provided link, after searching for its content in the messageboards: "Polymorph spells do not change your type."
Quote from the PRD: "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form"
According to this, not only do you lose the benefits of your earlier form, but you don't lose the drawbacks tied to its type. For instance, you lose all racial and other form-dependent benefits of being a half-orc, but you still suffer from an arrow of orc slaying. Damn.
And the RAW saying the GM has the final say in this doesn't help much. As some people asked already "what (exactly) is a form-dependent ability?"
Is the Barbarian's Rage? Is a Monk's AC bonus? Is the Paladin's Smite?
Would it be broken to simply wave this restriction away? I mean, keeping one's racial darkvision isn't much broken.
After all, you "paid" for it, and that human druid doesn't lose his bonus feat, does he?
Strange...didn't we have this thread, more or less, six months or so ago?
Anyway, as said in a current parallel thread, the Polymorph section in the Magic chapter is helpful (I know you've read it, Ravingdork, but just emphasizing that). Based on that section:
(1) Polymorph spells make you appear to be the creature, with a +20 on Disguise checks, and "many of the fine details can be controlled." For a lich, I'd say that means you no longer look all skin and bones (or just bones), your eyes don't glow etc. Ditto a warforged in essence.
(2) You gain (and lose) exactly what the Magic chapter and spell descriptions say; therefore, your type doesn't change. You look like an ankylosaurus, though at heart you're still all lich.
(3) You gain a specific bonus to stats and natural armour based on and described by the spell cast. Generally, you don't gain the standard size modifiers to stats. There is a slightly wacked little table that notes additional bonusses/penalties if your starting form is something other than small or medium, which would apply to eg some familiars.
(4) You gain a rattlebag of other abilities specified by individual spells, but you lose Ex and Su abilities derived from your natural form "such as keen senses, scent and darkvision."
This last bit is pure DM adjudication, but the examples are a good guideline. I'd say it says this: if the ability derives from your natural sense organs, skin or hide, claws or appendages, or internal organs, etcetera, you lose it.
Feats with an Ex effect...well, there probably are feats out there that give low-light vision or maybe scent, so yes, you could lose some feats: but most feats don't chime with the examples given in the Magic chapter.
A lich would surely lose Darkvision, Natural armour, DR/Bludgeoning, negative energy touch, and paralyzing touch.
It might lose DR/Magic, cold and electricity resistance, and fear aura...though I'd rule not (I'd make the bodily distinction here, cutting through the two DR types).
I don't think it'd lose Rejuvenation, though a cruel DM might rule even this is bodily dependent...but I don't think so, really: the ritual has been completed, and you're still a lich, whatever you look like.
What you'd keep: no Con score (you're still Undead); Undead traits that aren't bodily dependent.
Edit: Barbarian's rage, Paladin's smite etc: no, you wouldn't lose these. They're class-dependent, not body-dependent.
Edit II: Orc Ferocity and Halfling Luck? Are these dependent on your natural form? I don't think so. My DM call would be that they're mental a/o spiritual, not physical. So no, I wouldn't say these are lost, though Darkvision, Low-light vision, and the corrolaries for an imp, yes.
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So: really, it's a bit fuzzy but not so bad, except for section (4), which isn't so bad either, but does certainly require DM adjudication.
A lich would surely lose Darkvision, Natural armour, DR/Bludgeoning, negative energy touch, and paralyzing touch.
I really don't think the negative energy touch and paralyzing touch are form dependent (though with no support, that is really just my opinion). This especially makes sense seeing as I keep my undead type. Changing into a carebear doesn't change the fact that I am suffused with extremely dangerous negative energy.
I can also see it being argued that a polymorpher would pretty much everything form the lich template. Essentially, my sorceress would use Form of the Dragon to turn into a dracolich (of sorts).
Well...
"You lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form."
Form. Not race. Form is a broader term, and goes against your thesis that a template is outside the remit of polymorph restrictions. The lich template is an integral part of its physical form, isn't it? Form is the keyword, and form includes the template where that template deals with the physical sense of the beast.
Second: you lose natural attacks + form-based Ex and Su abilities. I'd rule that includes both the lich's neg-energy touch and the paralyzing touch. These don't arise from your Undead type; they are physical Su attacks of the lich template.
As a parallel example, consider a dread wraith transmuter, who would surely lose the incorporeal subtype when polymorphed, and so its incorporeal touch - no? Those qualities are dependent on its natural, physical form. So too, I think, are a lich's.
You could still play the dracolich, of sorts. You still have no Con and an undead's many immunities, and "fine details can be controlled" - so if you want to retain your glowing eyes, fair enough. To be frank, though, as a dragon you've got plenty going on natural attack-wise: cutting the lich touch makes some sense from a balance perspective (by the current polymorph yardstick) as well as (IMO) fitting the Magic chapter guidelines.
Still, this is IMO territory, as you say. If your DM is letting you play with neg-energy claws and bite, all power to you. My hunch is that many DMs would be inclined to rule the *other* way - to flat-out ban *all* Ex and Su lich abilities while in dragon form. Replies in this thread would suggest as much. That feels out of kilter to me too. A halfway house of some kind is where I think it's at myself, even though that's more work for DM and perhaps player.
We can discuss all day long on whether this or that ability is dependent on form, chance is that we aren't going to agree. Especially because "GM has the final say" despite the fact that "they should be evident" (lol) The listed examples are self-explanatory but they are limited to the character's sensory organs (eyes and nose). If there was something else, they should have given at least one example.
I suggest someone from the PRPG development team lists all abilities that depend on form (for all races/classes/monsters) in two categories ("strongly depends" and "might depend"), and does this on future products. Consider this as expanding the list of examples, because, as it is, it's not sufficient.
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Just a couple of thoughts to this thread:
polymorph changes your form... not your class.
Anything you gain from your class (i.e. barbarian rage) is not lost. You were a human barbarian..... you appear as a (lets go with) ogre barbarian.
Templates are not forms. You were a human lich sorceress.... you appear as a ogre lich sorceress.
On that same note, you cannot polymorph into a lich.... it is a template added to a form, not a form in and of itself.
Just a couple of thoughts to this thread:
polymorph changes your form... not your class.
Anything you gain from your class (i.e. barbarian rage) is not lost. You were a human barbarian..... you appear as a (lets go with) ogre barbarian.Templates are not forms. You were a human lich sorceress.... you appear as a ogre lich sorceress.
On that same note, you cannot polymorph into a lich.... it is a template added to a form, not a form in and of itself.
This is what I was thinking as well.