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I've read through the kingdom building information a couple times now, and while I'm excited about putting them into practice, I've noticed something I had been excited about was completely missing from the rules thus far.
I was expecting the various leadership roles to have a broader impact on the player's experience within the adventure path. As of right now, the player picks a role, designates which ability score adds to the kingdom, and maybe makes one of the different command checks if it seems appropriate (otherwise the ruler makes them).
This concerns me in two ways: First, players excited about this aspect of the adventure path may have chosen skills and feats that they perceive to be helpful to their future role. Thus, skill points spent on "Profession: Accountant" or "Craft: Legal Codes" will see limited use and a game master will have to deal with players wondering why such skills can't be subbed for their base ability scores.
Second, the abstraction can take away the feel that the character is really doing his or her job. Roll the die, add up the modifiers, and you've either succeeded or you didn't. And since multiple roles provide bonuses to the check, they may begin to feel like just some cog in a machine rather than a vital part of the kingdom. The players should be PLAYERS, not just modifiers.
My suggestion is occasionally during the Kingdom Events phase, instead make individual Leadership Events that gives each player a problem unique to their Leadership Role.
Since this could bog things down, I'm not suggesting Leadership Events happen as frequently as Kingdom Events unless your particular group is enjoying them. Also, your campaign only need concern itself with Leadership events that apples to roles filled with actual PCs. NPCs will be dealing with these on a constant basis, though it might be feasible that they could ask the PCs for some assistance. They are the heroes, after all.
They can be as elaborate or as mundane as fits the needs of the individual campaign, and can range from a single skill-based die roll to a whole side quest taken apart from the main group, if you've got that kind of time and wherewithal. I'm seriously thinking of doing this in my campaign, and since I likely will have 6 players, I'm well aware that this could take up gobs of time unless I do these things over email or just say, "this past month, you as Magister have been dealing with <roll> a tournament at the wizard college. And you as Treasurer have been dealing with <roll>..."
Examples that I've brainstormed so far include:
Ruler:
A suitor is angling for the empty chair beside the throne. (roleplaying)
A noble estate requests your presence at their gala. (Kno. Nobility)
A holiday requires you to make a speech to the masses. (Diplomacy or Perform: Oratory)
A legal dispute appeals to your authority (Wisdom check or Profession: Lawyer)
Counselor
There is a class dispute between nobles and peasants. (Diplomacy)
Small races petition to have construction facilitate their stature. (Kno. Local or Diplomacy)
Different merchant guilds are jockeying for official sanction. (Profession or Craft)
General
You are asked to put on a jousting tournament. (Kno. Nobility or Ride)
You wish to recruit a seasoned adventurer to be one of your captains. (roleplaying)
The fledgling army participates in wargames. (multiple skill checks)
Grand Diplomat
An ambassador is flaunting his diplomatic immunity. (roleplaying)
An envoy is sabre rattling. (Intimidate or Will Save)
A small community is resisting annexation. (Diplomacy, Intimidate or roleplaying)
High Priest
Two important festivals for two different religions are on the same day. (roleplaying or Diplomacy)
A prominent religion is suffering a schism. (Kno. Religion)
A religion counter to the alignment of the kingdom is growing a following. (roleplaying)
Magister
A botched summoning at one of the colleges has run amok. (Kno. Planes)
A strange relic has been found in a field and brought to you. (Kno. History or Spellcraft)
A teacher is teaching his students from questionable texts. (roleplaying)
Marshal
A patrol has been abusing its power and shaking down citizens. (Intimidate)
Fishing/hunting/trapping has decimated the wildlife in a hex. (Kno. Nature or Survival)
A Robin Hood-type bandit has the support of the locals in a hex. (Diplomacy or roleplaying)
Etc., etc,
Whew. I've got more, but I'll leave it at that to see what kind of response this generates. I'm hoping this generates some interest and board members post plenty of ideas that can make nicely diverse lists for each leadership role.
Final caveat before I close: Obviously, this is completely without knowing what the next four Kingmaker installments will add to the kingdom-ruling process. If I've stepped on some toes and jumped the gun for future official Kingmaker goodness, I do apologize.
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I've read through the kingdom building information a couple times now, and while I'm excited about putting them into practice, I've noticed something I had been excited about was completely missing from the rules thus far.
I was expecting the various leadership roles to have a broader impact on the player's experience within the adventure path. As of right now, the player picks a role, designates which ability score adds to the kingdom, and maybe makes one of the different command checks if it seems appropriate (otherwise the ruler makes them).
This concerns me in two ways: First, players excited about this aspect of the adventure path may have chosen skills and feats that they perceive to be helpful to their future role. Thus, skill points spent on "Profession: Accountant" or "Craft: Legal Codes" will see limited use and a game master will have to deal with players wondering why such skills can't be subbed for their base ability scores.
Second, the abstraction can take away the feel that the character is really doing his or her job. Roll the die, add up the modifiers, and you've either succeeded or you didn't. And since multiple roles provide bonuses to the check, they may begin to feel like just some cog in a machine rather than a vital part of the kingdom. The players should be PLAYERS, not just modifiers.
My suggestion is occasionally during the Kingdom Events phase, instead make individual Leadership Events that gives each player a problem unique to their Leadership Role.
Since this could bog things down, I'm not suggesting Leadership Events happen as frequently as Kingdom Events unless your particular group is enjoying them. Also, your campaign only need concern itself with Leadership events that apples to roles filled with actual PCs. NPCs will be dealing with these on a constant basis, though it might be feasible that they could ask the PCs for some assistance. They are the heroes, after all.
They can be as elaborate or as mundane as fits the needs of the individual campaign, and can...
I think this is a great start.I'm working on something similar for my campaign.
Creative Director
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This is an interesting idea!
Of course, we did indeed include a fair amount of "leadership events" in Kingmaker... it just so happens that they're all incorporated into the adventure and the various quests. But setting up additional events like this is indeed interesting, ESPECIALLY if they can be tailored to fit your PCs and the NPCs they choose to ally with.
I planned on doing something like this, so I'd be interested to see more of your examples, Stalwart. I promise I'll only copy most of them.
Seems like I'm not the only one, then. Good to know. PJ and gang, I'd be interested in hearing your ideas.
I'll keep putting up my ideas. This finishes off the list of Leadership Roles. I'll be adding more as I think of them.
Royal Assassin
Actually, the assassin role really cries out for solo side adventures moreso than any other role. There can be an entire thread on ideas for particular targets that need to be eliminated, discreetly or otherwise.
Spymaster
A political rival is attempting to blackmail the rulers (Stealth or Slight of Hand)
Place someone loyal at the head of a crime guild (Kno. Local or Sense Motive)
Install a double agent within your own ranks (Kno. Nobility or Disguise)
Create subversive documents to sap an enemy's support (Linguistics or Diplomacy)
A pickpocketing guild has obtained something extremely valuable (Acrobatics or Kno. Local)
I believe the Assassin and Spymaster have the most potential for sneaky, subversive and underhanded deeds -- all for the good of the kingdom, of course. The possibilities could fill an entire volume alone.
Treasurer
A mysterious shortfall appears in the kingdom's treasury (Sense Motive or roleplay)
Tariffs on imported livestock are needed to aid local ranchers (Handle Animal or Diplomacy)
Road tolls are needed to support patrols in more rugged areas (Survival or Kno. Nature)
Tax revenue has fallen off in a nearby hex (Kno. Geography or Profession: Clerk)
Warden
A community of gnomes is fighting with a community of kobolds (Diplomacy or roleplay)
An outlying community has suffered a sneak attack (Survival or Perception)
A political movement is gaining ground and has armed itself (Intimidate or roleplay)
A castle is expanding its walls around a community (Kno. Engineering or Profession: Engineer)
A border raid has occurred! The local garrison needs reinforcments (Ride or Profession: Soldier)
What do you think? I'd like to hear any more ideas out there!
This is a *superb* idea. If you're looking for encouragement, allow me to heap some more on to it.
As far as contribution: I'm interested in codifying this a little bit more. Things that I would like to see determined:
- Stakes (penalty for failure / reward for success)
- Frequency (chance of happening)
- Difficulty (DCs and such)
Stakes would be on a per-item basis. The default would probably be +1 or +2 Unrest, and XP awarded to that player for soloing a CR of level -2. Of course, there would be many exceptions to this default.
As far as Frequency is concerned, obvoiusly this is something we should tailor to the PCs, but what about something as elegant as: once the Event phase starts, roll a d12 (each value indexing to a particular role in the kingdom). If you hit a spot filled with an NPC, roll on the Events table printed in the book. If you hit a spot filled with a PC, roll on that PC's role's specific sub-table (i.e. what Stalwart posted above).
In a pinch, Difficulty could just be the Command DC of the Kingdom (effectively subbing in "Knowledge: Nobility" for "Stability" for one particular case). Some specific entries that have higher rewards or penalties for failure could have higher DCs.
Additionally, to steal an idea from the BSG Boardgame:
Most of these are skill checks: you either succeed (and something good happens) or you fail (and something bad happens). But, as an added interest, to help players feel the "weight of rulership" what if some of the events were NOT win/lose checks of this sort, but instead they were presented with an awful dilemma where BOTH sides hurt, but they have full latitude to pick either side (with automatic success).
For example: a group of bandits want to become "semi-legitamite" and form a theive's guild in your city. You can either allow this (-1 economy) or you can deny them the charter (-1 city defense).
Note that some players will HATE the idea of having a lose-lose scenario presented before them and will search everywhere to find a way to "win." (But other groups love the idea of "tough decisions") So this option is decidedly not for all groups. And even for groups that choose to do it, it should be a minority (1/4?) of events.
Stalwart, ignore this post if you find it crimping your creativity.
Stalwart, ignore this post if you find it crimping your creativity.
NO WAY!!!
This kind of stuff was what I was hoping for. I knew that I would eventually have to add some mechanics to the system if I was going to throw it out for all to use at their discretion.
The rewards/penalties for success or failure is a tough one, since it might throw off the balancing of the nation building system. Also, it bears repeating that the system paints in broad strokes, rather than dealing with minutia. This, in a sense, is ADDING minutia to give the characters a feel for the daily challenges in their job. Just something to think about.
The d12 roll makes a lot of sense (and gives the rulers a slightly increased chance for stuff to deal with), and I like its simplicity. The one exception I can see is that for large parties (say, five players or more), this more frequently will fall on a player. If the Leadership Events are going to be more than just a die roll or two, what was set up to be an ancillary feature becomes more invasive.
Again, Erik, thank you for the comments and ideas.
A design goal here is to have the player's individuality be more important, right? Stop me if I'm wandering too far off track here, but I think alignment could be a good way to present interesting choices.
Your city has an declared alignment (though I don't think it does much after giving you +2/+2 at creation).
What if various descisions made by the PCs could alter the city's alignment? Chosing to forgive criminals or ignore traditions could give you "chaotic points", for example. This has the downside of having to keep track of (numerically) how lawful (and how good) the kingdom is. But perhaps if you get enough points, then the kindom switches categories (and thus bonuses), and the resulting upheavel causes Unrest?
It also could be a good way to posit interesting choices before the PCs: are they willing to take actions that are overtly labeled Chaotic, etc?
Again, I might be wandering too far afeild of your goals here...
That's a great idea. I think nations do evolve and shift their attitudes, based partially on pragmatism and partially on the public attitudes. To reflect that in the game could add a fantastic dimension to the experience of ruling your own kingdom.
I might have come across as more negative in my previous response to your idea, Erik, than I should have. I have two conflicting desires: one to make as realistic an experience for the players with the myriad of challenges and choices they face in their leadership roles, and to streamline the process because of the size and scale of the kingdom. To boil down these challenges into a single skill roll that can impact the nation's stability, loyalty, economy or unrest feels wrong, but ignoring their impact discredits the effects of the players' actions.
And personally, I love the lose/lose scenario. But I like some angst and moral quandaries in my games. Since this is completely supplemental material anyway, I think a "salad bar" approach would be the most useful to the most number of people. Take what you want, as much as you want, and if you decide you don't care for it, leave it and get something else. Tough choices? They're there. Intricate and involved missions? They're there if you've got the time and inclination. Small problems solved by simple skill checks? You're covered, so you can get back to the rest of Kingmaker. Can your group deal with the upheavals of alignment shifts? If so, they're here.
I'm interested in seeing it all, so I can sift through and take what works best for my game. Hopefully, others will see the value in that as well.
I'm resurrecting this thread since I'm about to reach this stage in the Kingmaker campaign I'm running. Hopefully, I'll get some new eyes viewing my ideas, and with that some more input.
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Well, I've done some additional thought on these, especially on the potential penalties and benefits of these events. Here's what I've got so far:
Ruler:
The Suitor: A suitor is angling for the empty chair beside the throne. It could be an arranged marriage from a Brevic noble house, an ambitious river kingdom, or a local (like Lily Teskerton). Skill: Knowledge(Nobility) or Profession(Matchmaker), or through roleplaying. No real benefit or penalty, unless deemed appropriate by the GM.
The Party: A noble estate requests your presence at their gala. Skill: Knowledge(Nobility). Success: +1 Loyalty; Failure: -1 Loyalty for the next two months.
The Speech: A holiday requires you to make a speech to the masses. Skill: Diplomacy or Perform(Oratory). Success: +2 Loyalty; Failure: -2 Loyalty for the next month.
The Dilemma: A legal dispute appeals to your authority. Skill: Wisdom check or Profession(Lawyer). Success: -1 Unrest, Failure: +1 Unrest.
Knighthood: Bestow knighthood upon a champion, or raising a character to one of the Leadership positions. Skill: Knowledge(Nobility) or Charisma check. Success: +2 Stability, Failure: -1 Stability for the next check.
Counselor
The Dispute: There is a class dispute between nobles and peasants. Skill: Diplomacy. Failure: +2 Unrest.
Size Matters: Small races petition to have construction facilitate their stature. Skill: Knowledge(Local) or Diplomacy. Failure: +2 Unrest.
Guild Wars: Different merchant guilds are jockeying for official sanction. Skill: Profession or Craft. Success: +2 Economy for the next month.
General
The Tourney: You are asked to put on a jousting tournament. Skill: Knowledge(Nobility) or Ride. Success: +2 Loyalty, Failure -2 Loyalty for the next month.
The Recruit: You wish to recruit a seasoned adventurer to be one of your captains. Skill: Diplomacy, or through roleplaying. Success: determined by the skills of the adventurer, or +1 Stability.
War Games: The fledgling army participates in wargames. Skill: multiple skill checks, or a run through of the mass combat rules.
Grand Diplomat
A Slight Problem: An ambassador is flaunting his diplomatic immunity. Skill: Diplomacy or through roleplaying. Failure: increased tensions with the ambassador's home country, or ongoing -2 Stability until three successes in a row or satisfactorily roleplayed.
The Threat: An envoy is sabre rattling. Skill: Intimidate or Will Save. Failure: +1 Unrest and -1 Stability for the next two months.
The Stubborn Homesteaders: A small community is resisting annexation. Skill: Diplomacy, Intimidate or through roleplaying. Failure: +1 Unrest, Success: -1 Unrest.
The Trade Pact: A neighboring kingdom approaches for a detailed trade agreement. Skill: Diplomacy or Knowledge(Local). Success: +2 Economy for as long as the trade agreement continues. May require the building of roads or the establishment of a city along the border GM's discretion).
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High Priest
The Scheduling Conflict: Two important festivals for two different religions are on the same day. Skill: Diplomacy or resolved through roleplaying. Failure: +2 Unrest or the Consumption for Festivals is doubled for the next month. Success: +1 Loyalty for the next month.
The Schism: A prominent religion is suffering a break between different factions. Skill: Knowledge(Religion) or Perform: Oratory. Failure: Choose one Temple (or Shrine, if no Temple exists) which does not add its bonuses to the kingdom for the next two months. Success: +2 Stability for the next month.
The Cult: A religion counter to the alignment of the kingdom is growing a following. Skill: Intimidate, or resolved through roleplaying. Failure: +1 Unrest ongoing until two consecutive successes, or GM deems it resolved. Success: -1 Unrest.
Magister
The Summoning: A botched summoning at one of the colleges has run amok. Skill: Knowledge(Planes) or through combat. Success: +1 Loyalty for the next month. Failure: One building in a city district that contains an Academy, Alchemist, Caster's Tower, Library, or Temple loses one random building.
The Find: A strange relic has been found in a field and brought to you. Skill: Knowledge(History) or Spellcraft. Success: +4 BPs.
The Instigator: A teacher is teaching his students from questionable texts. Skill: Perform(Oratory) or resolved through roleplaying. Failure: +3 Unrest.
Marshal
The Renegade: A patrol has been abusing its power and shaking down citizens. Skill: Intimidate or through combat. Success: +1 Loyalty for the next month, Failure: -2 Stability ongoing until resolved.
Geese Unlimited: Fishing/hunting/trapping has decimated the wildlife in a hex. Skill: Knowledge(Nature) or Survival. Success: +1 Stability for the next month, Failure: +2 Consumption for the next three months.
The Outlaw: A Robin Hood-type bandit has the support of the locals in a hex. Skill: Diplomacy or resolved through roleplaying or combat. Failure: -2 Stability ongoing until resolved. Success: -1 Loyalty unless the bandit is recruited or somehow disgraced.