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What you need to understand about "third party" D&D 3.5 products is, 99.999% of the time, they are complete and utter crap. Always have been.
Pretty much every DM banned all of them outright, and only made very rare and very specific exceptions.
You need to regard "3.5" has "Wizards of the Coast published material", and define "3rd party 3.5" as a separate (and banned) category.
That's nonsense. Sure, there is d20/OGL crap, but there's great stuff, too. Paizo did a lot of great d20/OGl stuff.
And it's not as if wizards never made crap. They did produce more than their fair share of uninteresting, ludicrous, or just hopelessly overpowered stuff.
The best course of action is decide on a case-by-case basis. You can do things like "once I've seen 3 crappy products of company X, I won't bother with that company again" (unless they were between lots of good stuff).
I must point out that the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game....is 3rd party OGL.
Not at all. It stopped being 3rd party OGL material when it moved into the realm of being it's own game.
I can agree with that.
Oh, wait, I have some examples for different ability scores, too!
See? That's the spirit! It's silly, but entertaining nonetheless.
See what happens when you try and use Charisma for your knowledge checks ;P
I would allow anyone playing an Expert to use this feat...
Not at all. It stopped being 3rd party OGL material when it moved into the realm of being it's own game.
Wow
Understand I'm saying this in the same spirit that 2nd edition wasn't simply a reprint of advanced D&D it had enough changes to be it's own system meaning whoever put it out had a new game and would have had first party status (even though it was still TSR in this case... if it had been a different company it would have been new material (i.e. first party) in it's own right for it's own system). It's different enough to no longer be 2nd edition instead it's its own thing. Same with pathfinder, it's different enough and indeed marketed as it's own gaming system -- which it is. Therefore it's first party from paizo.
Understand I'm saying this in the same spirit that 2nd edition wasn't simply a reprint of advanced D&D it had enough changes to be it's own system meaning whoever put it out had a new game and would have had first party status (even though it was still TSR in this case... if it had been a different company it would have been new material (i.e. first party) in it's own right for it's own system). It's different enough to no longer be 2nd edition instead it's its own thing. Same with pathfinder, it's different enough and indeed marketed as it's own gaming system -- which it is. Therefore it's first party from paizo.
Nobody likes a fanboy Abe.
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Just wanted to say that when a thread starts to provoke anger, I click on one of my bookmarks that remind me to laugh
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Fine!....I'll do it....
Alternate Key Ability
This feat allows a character to approach the performance of certain skills in a different way than most people.
Benefit: A character with this feat can substitute one physical key ability or one mental key ability for another for purposes of skill checks. For example, an Expert Acrobat could use his Dex score instead of Str for skills normally governed by Strength, such as Climb or Swim. Or, an Expert Courtesan might use Charisma instead of Wisdom for skills normally governed by the latter ability.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times; each time affects a different combination of skills.NOTE: This is from the 3.0 Experts page 92, but I am sure it is exactly the same in 3.5 Experts.
I haven't seen the Experts Guide, is that a WotC source?
Anything this generic is bound to be abused. There are some feats which allow ability substitution in limited ways and that makes a lot more sense than this. Not the most broken feat EVAR but it isn't seeing play at my table.
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I do feel the need to point out that those +2 2 skill feats are generally regarded as really, really, really terrible feats and a gigantic waste of resources, so it's not really a fair comparison :p
I'm not sure why you say this because there are two cases where those feats are quite excellent.
#1 if you want to boost a skill as much as possible you can take skill focus and the +2/ +2 feats. I've seen it used with stealth this way.
#2 More significantly, if you need both skills they are very appealing in particular if you have limited skill points. A sorcerer or bard using Magical aptitude for Spellcraft + UMD is quite nice, in particular once you hit 10th level.
Edit: Many of these are tough sells though, Athletic... ack! Persuasive is decent if you are a social character.
Just wanted to say that when a thread starts to provoke anger, I click on one of my bookmarks that remind me to laugh
Well, I'm not angry....just dismayed.
Fine!....I'll do it....
Alternate Key Ability
This feat allows a character to approach the performance of certain skills in a different way than most people.
Benefit: A character with this feat can substitute one physical key ability or one mental key ability for another for purposes of skill checks. For example, an Expert Acrobat could use his Dex score instead of Str for skills normally governed by Strength, such as Climb or Swim. Or, an Expert Courtesan might use Charisma instead of Wisdom for skills normally governed by the latter ability.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times; each time affects a different combination of skills.NOTE: This is from the 3.0 Experts page 92, but I am sure it is exactly the same in 3.5 Experts.
I haven't seen the Experts Guide, is that a WotC source?
Anything this generic is bound to be abused. There are some feats which allow ability substitution in limited ways and that makes a lot more sense than this. Not the most broken feat EVAR but it isn't seeing play at my table.
No it is not a WotC source. It is all about varying and interesting NPC Experts....so, totally unnecessary. And, I think you're right, it is too open-ended. I would be in favor of specific feats for certain trades, balanced on a case by case basis. But it's all just house rules and doesn't belong in this forum anymore.
Oh, wait, I have some examples for different ability scores, too!
Fly - Charisma: You're like a graceful eagle, looking so good flying around that the air helps you in your funny manoeuvres.
Handle Animal - Strength: Just yank the chain!
Knowledge - Dexterity: You have fast fingers, enabling you to enter stuff into google real fast!
Perception - Charisma: You're so popular, people WANT to show and tell you things.
Linguistics - Constitution: Your big set of lungs allows you to speak loudly to foreigners, because speaking your own language loudly and slowly is a scientifically proved way to bridge the language barrier.
Use Magic Device - Strength: Just press the "shoot" button really, really hard. Bang the staff against the wall a couple of times, or give it a good kick. That usually works.
Sense Motive - Dexterity: Dodge the lies!
FTW!!!
Not at all. It stopped being 3rd party OGL material when it moved into the realm of being it's own game.
So when they stopped producing stuff for the D&D 3.5 ruleset and started doing stuff for the Pathfinder ruleset, their stuff stopped to be crap?
Not at all. It stopped being 3rd party OGL material when it moved into the realm of being it's own game.So when they stopped producing stuff for the D&D 3.5 ruleset and started doing stuff for the Pathfinder ruleset, their stuff stopped to be crap?
Wrong direction Kae, I'm saying that the pathfinder rule set isn't 3rd party material not the stuff that is published by other companies for use with the pathfinder system. Afterall if it was anything published by someone not Paizo for pathfinder and pathfinder is 3rd party what would the other publisher's material be? 6th party material?
There is the Keen Intellect feat from Oriental Adventures which replaces int for wis on all skill checks...so it's really the same feat. The only trcik to that feat is the 1st level only requirement.
The player has found a feat called “Key Ability Change” (from “Experts” 3.5 maybe?) that allows you to use the modifier from one ability in place of the modifier for another.
Um, am I missing something or is this way out of kilter!?
Just say "no". That is a crazy feat.
Wrong direction Kae, I'm saying that the pathfinder rule set isn't 3rd party material
Pathfinder RPG may not be 3rd party material if you consider Paizo the 1st party, but everything before it was 3rd party material because wizards was the 1st party.
Wrong direction Kae, I'm saying that the pathfinder rule set isn't 3rd party materialPathfinder RPG may not be 3rd party material if you consider Paizo the 1st party, but everything before it was 3rd party material because wizards was the 1st party.
This I agree with but I wasn't talking about what came before, I specifically stated the pathfinder system for that reason.
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The player has found a feat called “Key Ability Change” (from “Experts” 3.5 maybe?) that allows you to use the modifier from one ability in place of the modifier for another.
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This is why I allow Core and a small approved list only. :)
That is WAY unbalanced. I have seen feats that allow you to swap INT bonus for WIS bonus for things like an Knowledge skill or Perception or something like that, but not a blanket replacement for all.
The best thing would be to tell the player that it is unbalancing and find a way to reach a middle ground...or just kill him. :)