So in our last session, the wayward 5th level Rogue found himself surrounded by Orcs in Melee (7 of them around him) and they decided to just pile in on him and attempt to basically just pull him down for a kicking.
In order to resolve this, one Orc launced a Grapple, with the others all using 'Aid Another'.
The Rogue managed to face-stab the lunging Orc, but alas, the Grapple was on.
So far so good, 7 (big AND strong) Orcs now have Mr Rogue in their clutches - he is significantly physically weaker and of less size and mass than any one of his attackers - so you'd expect that they'd have him down tight.
On the Rogues action, he tries to break free - however the rules state that he only needs to break the CMD of the grapple initiator to be free the whole group... The 'aiding' doesnt actually seem to help in this case, and its a pretty trivial task for him to break free and run off - using Acrobatics on his move to avoid any follow up AoO's.
Surely there is something wrong with this picture?
How can a relative Steve Erkel with no grappling training break free from the grips of an entire Orc army by simply making a fairly easy attempt against one opponent?
Thoughts?
I don't think this is unreasonable. The orcs might work together to grapple him but there simply isn't enough of him that they all have a piece to hold onto without ropes, manacles etc...
One orc is going to have his hands full.
You should have had some of the orcs with a readied action if the rogue broke free. Perhaps a second grapple?
sigurd
Also, the rogue would've had to go through at least one enemy square, the DC would be around (assuming base orc without class levels) 14 + 5 + 6 * 2 = 31, which is pretty stiff; I'd guess it's unlikely that the rogue would have more than about 15 or so Acrobatics - which would require a roll of 16+ to just prance out (at halfspeed, which would get him at most 10ft away from the orcs, after having spend a standard action ungrappling).
That aside, there's a difference between aiding to grapple (+2 to CMB) and aiding to avoid the rogue escaping (+2 to CMD). The latter is when you aid to increase AC (which also applies to CMD).
How can a relative Steve Erkel with no grappling training break free from the grips of an entire Orc army by simply making a fairly easy attempt against one opponent?
Thoughts?
Why didn't you just have multiple orcs grappling the rogue? That's how I would interpret "the grips of an entire Orc army", rather than just having one orc grappling and the other orcs assisting a little bit.
Why didn't you just have multiple orcs grappling the rogue? That's how I would interpret "the grips of an entire Orc army", rather than just having one orc grappling and the other orcs assisting a little bit.How can a relative Steve Erkel with no grappling training break free from the grips of an entire Orc army by simply making a fairly easy attempt against one opponent?
Thoughts?
Mechanically, though, "aid another" is the way to make this "reasonable" as multiple, lesser grapples are easy to slip by (as there's no penalty to your passive attempts to not be grappled by many enemies, the best bet is for them all to "aid" each other and stack their "aid" bonuses to get the highest possible grapple check).
As for the Steve Erkel - just apply that "aid" bonus from the multiple orcs to the cmd as well as the cmb (presumably, they're all in the grapple, yes? Pig-pile style? Or did they like branch out and pin the guy? So 4 orcs hold 'em, and 3 can stomp-attack him on the ground, in a prone position w/no dex mods possible?)
Best way - slap on the "aid" bonus to the cmd since it's a multi-party grapple. Otherwise, the rules are simply ridiculous, and Erkel, will in fact, slip clean away.
You should have had some of the orcs with a readied action if the rogue broke free. Perhaps a second grapple?
In the scenario presented, the orcs all aided each other to initiate the grapple. They could not also ready an action at the same time.
If some of them chose to ready instead of aiding their grappling buddies, then the initial grapple might have failed. Since the idea was to "pile on" to guarantee a successful gang-grapple, then it's clear the orcs decided in favor of the dogpile.
Let's look at this rule closely:
Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action). Multiple creatures can also assist another creature in breaking free from a grapple, with each creature that assists (using the Aid Another action) granting a +2 bonus on the grappled creature's combat maneuver check.
Take a look at the bolded part. "makes a check" can be interpreted in two ways.
1. We could interpret the way the OP did: there is a check required to initiate the grapple and only the initiator can make this check. The helpers can only aid this check.2. "makes a check" can be said to be equivalent to "makes any check". In this case, we observe that every time the DM says "make a check" he is referencing it in the singular, even though multiple checks might be made (perhaps on later rounds, for example), each being referenced the same way. Likewise the rules reference the singular, even though multiple checks might be made (on later rounds).
In that second interpretation, each orc that successfully aided the initiator is lending him a +2 each time he "makes a check". Each round when the orcs' turn comes up those helpers need to decide to keep helping or do something else.
Admittedly, that's probably playing fast and loose with the RAW, but it's the only way for group-grapples to actually work. Otherwise it's just an individual grapple with a bunch of onlookers who can't contribute, which as the OP pointed out, is quite silly.
Me, I prefer a loose interpretation of the RAW, when it works, to a strict but silly adherence to the RAW.
Of course the readied orcs couldn't be in the grapple. Half might ready a second grapple to tie up the rogue. This would be a tactical decision by the Orcs not a mechanical exercise of the rules.
Mechanically you might loose 6 from your grapple but you could gain a second grapple at +4.
You should have had some of the orcs with a readied action if the rogue broke free. Perhaps a second grapple?In the scenario presented, the orcs all aided each other to initiate the grapple. They could not also ready an action at the same time.
If some of them chose to ready instead of aiding their grappling buddies, then the initial grapple might have failed. Since the idea was to "pile on" to guarantee a successful gang-grapple, then it's clear the orcs decided in favor of the dogpile.
Of course the readied orcs couldn't be in the grapple. Half might ready a second grapple to tie up the rogue. This would be a tactical decision by the Orcs not a mechanical exercise of the rules.
Mechanically you might loose 6 from your grapple but you could gain a second grapple at +4.
Sure, that works, if the orcs prefer to out-think the system mechanics AND they are content to just repeatedly initiate and endless stream of grapples and never accomplish anything else.
Let's expand the scenario. Suppose the orcs want to grab Erkel-rogue and drag him off to their cave:
Round 1 - four orcs (call them Group A) grapple Erkel while four more (Group B) ready an action. On Erkel's turn he escapes the one orc who actually held onto him (no explanation of why the other three let go; we just accept that it is so?). The Group B orcs trigger their readied action to re-grapple Erkel.
Round 2 - the orcs want to drag him away, but Group A goes first and they aren't grappling at this time. So they initiate a grapple. Now all 8 orcs are grappling Erkel (but really only one of them is still holding him), but they can't move him yet (Group A just initiated their grapple so they can't move him til next round, and Group B goes later in this round). On Erkel's turn, he escapes. Oops, nobody readied an action so he tumbles 15 feet away. Now Group B gets to act, they move 15 feet and re-grapple Erkel. Still can't move him though.
Round 3 - Group A moves 15 feet and grapple, Erkel escapes, tumbles 15 feet. Group B moves 15 feet and grapples.
Round 4 - repeat ad infinitum.
Every round Erkel moves 15 feet towards his allies - exactly the opposite of what the orcs planned to do (drag him back to their cave). In fact, the orcs cannot possibly achieve this goal.
OK, OK, Erkel could fail an escape attempt, allowing the orcs to drag him 15 feet toward their cave (standard action to maintain grapple followed by moving at half speed). Next round he escaps and gets 15 feet farther away from the cave with his tumble.
Yes, the die rolls could go badly for Erkel, and the orcs might eventually get him to their cave, but the die rolls could go against the orcs, too, and they might never get him to the cave.
The point is, strictly reading the group-grapple rules means that 8 orcs have no way to grab Erkel and drag him off to their cave. They cannot force the issue in any way that their superior numbers give them any kind of advantage.
Whereas my looser interpretation means that 8 orcs vs. 1 Erkel is actually a very lopsided affair, as it should be.
You make the assumption that 8 orcs can grapple a medium (or smaller) creature.
The first might initiate a grapple but the remaining orcs are more likely to find Orc than Rogue. I think you end up with too many grapplers contributing chaos not grapple.
Given 8 orcs and a rogue. The principle orc is aided by 3 orcs in a grapple. The remaining orcs cut off exits remove potential stumbling blocks and _ready an attack_ if the rogue escapes.
Your narration with the 8 grapplers throwing themselves into the single action is precisely the way that prisoners escape. I don't think it reasonable that 8 orcs, without trained actions, contribute meaningfully to the grappling of one figure.
To follow your example. The 8 orcs grapple the rogue. The rogue escapes the grapple (cause that's what heroes do and because that's what you should be prepared for). Since everyone but the rogue has completed their action the rogue tumbles or jumps through the best chance he can find.
No reserve to confront an escape. They might catch him with an attack of opportunity or not. It depends on how you tell the story.
Sigurd
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I don't think it reasonable that 8 orcs, without trained actions, contribute meaningfully to the grappling of one figure.
It may be that Hollywood has warped my sense of what's possible (but I watch Mythbusters, honest!) yet it seems perfectly reasonable that at least 5 orcs can get in there: one for each limb and one to provide a bear hug.
It seems to me that the other three could drag the group across the clearing. While the grapple rules require that a grappler make a check to perform a move, there's no such requirement on the part of the creatures NOT involved in the grapple. ;)
The other orcs could bull rush the group, or perhaps tie a rope or twine around the leg of the rogue and just pull while the rest of the orcs struggle not to lose their grip. AFAIC that description qualifies as "aid another".
Oh, and I would also give the aid another bonus on CMD as well as CMB. In the situation i just described, I think the rogue would be hard pressed to effectively grapple back at the one performing the bear hug.
The first might initiate a grapple but the remaining orcs are more likely to find Orc than Rogue. I think you end up with too many grapplers contributing chaos not grapple.
Sure, to some degree that is correct, however the weight of the pile is what ends up keeping you locked down - more bodies, more weight, and more hands to shove you down as you try move and escape:
Makes little sense that you are breaking off against just one guy and manage to escape from being pulled down into that.
Worse, you can ignore breaking free - just kill the main grappler and even if they ALL aid another that round to prevent you breaking free you can walk out no worries.
I think I am with you DM Blake.
Once the ruck is on, the Aid would have to apply to all subsequent checks as long as those people were still electing to aid.
One of the other posters pointed out that a bunch of untrained Orcs grappling would only be so useful, however in the rules as written, there is little difference in skill between a person who 'trained' a Feat into grappling vs those who didn't. So the Orcs could all be UFC MMA Jujitsu champions - and Erkel Rogue could still reasonably break guard and escape.
Only a +2 difference between them.
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Well here's my take on it Shifty,
How do you see your campaign? Is it that the heroes are TRULY heroic - to be stuff of legend? If so then the hero should be given the benefit of the doubt and use the RAW.
If as I understand, you wish your campaign to be more realistic then by all means apply rule 0 and let aid another affect all Combat maneuver rolls by the combatants which is also a valid approach.
After all you can say that in this case its a Combat Maneuvers Aid thats being applied.
Just make it clear to your players which way you are doing it.
Just to remind you though something that wasn't outlined above
1) CMB is effected by all normal to hit bonuses and penalties (so flanks and the like apply)
2) Aid Another in combat requires a successful to hit vs Ac 10
Simply put, there's 'Heroic', and then there's recieving a posthumous award for Heroism. The latter tends to put you into the realm of Legend!
In a nutshell, to allow ones self to be totally surrounded by meaningful attackers is not an act of heroism, it is an act of despairing tactical indifference.
Truly Heroic Legends have always fought smart, and used tactical advantage, no matter how dire, to achieve the 'Legendary' result - to whit, the Spartans at Thermopylae, the Australian Soldiers at Kapyong and the Battle of Isurava etc. Simply put, had those Heroic Legends merely waded into the ranks of the numerically superior foes, the whole show would be over quickly.
At present, the system (as DM Blake points out) may make it impossible for a group to detain and restrain a lone protagonist - The Spartans only held out for 3 days, apparently Steve Erkel could have outgrappled them all solo for significantly longer! :p
Simply put, by at least having one defender with you, and backing up to a wall or similar, you can mitigate almost entirely the chance of being grappled and captured by your opponents, which still leaves heaps of margin for Herois. It also has the added advantage of making sure that a party sticks together and works as a team, not as a group of individuals.
All of the above being said...
I also think that if the group is 'aiding another' then they are actively participating in said grapple - and should probably wear the condition of such as well.