Cost of Living and Servants

[Ordinary Kraken]

I am wondering about the cost of living rules in the Pathfinder Rulebook(p. 405).

I would assume a character maintaining a Wealthy or Extravegent lifestyle would have a staff of servants to maintain their residence. Would the cost of these servants be assumed into the cost of living, or shoudl it be payed seperately (1 sp/day for maids, 3 sp or more for a head servant or trained cook). If the cost is assumed, how many would be a reasonable assumption in your opinion?

On an associated note, if a character is maintaining a set cost of living and has a family, would he have to pay full cost of living for each family member, or just an extra, say 50%, per person after the first.

Currently I am playing a nobleman maintaining a wealthy cost of living for himself, his wife and unmarried sister (300 gp per month). Is it feasible that the cost would be lower than 300 because much of the expenses (house, cook, etc.) are already covered for one person or three?

Thanks for any input people have.

[Khuldar]

Ordinary Kraken wrote:

I am wondering about the cost of living rules in the Pathfinder Rulebook(p. 405).

I would assume a character maintaining a Wealthy or Extravegent lifestyle would have a staff of servants to maintain their residence. Would the cost of these servants be assumed into the cost of living, or shoudl it be payed seperately (1 sp/day for maids, 3 sp or more for a head servant or trained cook). If the cost is assumed, how many would be a reasonable assumption in your opinion?

On an associated note, if a character is maintaining a set cost of living and has a family, would he have to pay full cost of living for each family member, or just an extra, say 50%, per person after the first.

Currently I am playing a nobleman maintaining a wealthy cost of living for himself, his wife and unmarried sister (300 gp per month). Is it feasible that the cost would be lower than 300 because much of the expenses (house, cook, etc.) are already covered for one person or three?

Thanks for any input people have.

I'd pay for the staff separately, but could see getting a few for free, it's not unreasonable. With wealthy you don't need to track meals & stuff less then 10gp. I'd use that number for the monthy wages of your hired help.

You might want to look at staff pricing as an example for multiple people sharing a place: Full price for the first, 3/4 for the second, 1/2 for each additional.

[HalfOrcHeavyMetal]

As Khuldar said, in regards to the Nobles sharing the Mansion (or Tower or whatever floats your boat) remember that each servant will want to be paid in full for their services if you aren't also providing food and board for them.

For arguement's sake, look at the chart 14-9 on page 454. The Commoner is entitled to 1 Weapon (50 gold) no Protection (0 Gold) Limited Use items (40 gold) and Gear (40 gold). For a Commoner, we can assume the Weapon is something suitable to their profession. A Maid is likely to be handy with a Dagger, while a Porter would be better suited to wielding a Club or Mace and a Clothier would likely also turn to the Dagger or maybe a Light Crossbow, so on and so forth. Limited Use items would likely be stuff such as Sunrods, Tindertwigs, a makeup kit (watered-down Disguise kit), possibly even a Potion of Purify Food and Drink the Kitchen Hand might keep on his person to help cover up a badly-spoiled meal. Gear is clothing, limited personal effects and perhaps a few mementos gifted/stolen from their previous palce of work.

So the Commoner (Maid) has 30 gold to her weapon, 40 gold to Expendable Items and 40 gold to her personal effects. That's 110 gold. Divide that by 52 and you've got an average wage for a 'high class' servant of 2 gold, 11 silver and 53 copper per week, or if you're feeling generous, 2 gold 50 silvers to help with maths-fu headaches.

For less 'glamorous' occupations such as Porter and other high-muscle low-brain jobs, you could pay even less, such as 1 gold a week, although a Good-aligned Noble would be willing to bump that up a bit, while a socially canny Noble understands a happy menial is a menial less likely to go blabbing around town how said Noble's tastes in a variety of matters that should remain private.

For Experts, remember they are proficient with light armor, so they get access to the full 260 Gold Cap. Divide that by 52 weeks of the year and you get a flat weekly price of 5 gold per week, with certain occupations (talented Cooks, skilled herbalist, discreet courtesan, so on and so forth) you might have to pay more, perhaps even double or triple for an exotic or locally famous one, and this is only at level 1, might I add!

[Helic]

Ordinary Kraken wrote:

I am wondering about the cost of living rules in the Pathfinder Rulebook(p. 405).

I would assume a character maintaining a Wealthy or Extravegent lifestyle would have a staff of servants to maintain their residence. Would the cost of these servants be assumed into the cost of living, or shoudl it be payed seperately (1 sp/day for maids, 3 sp or more for a head servant or trained cook). If the cost is assumed, how many would be a reasonable assumption in your opinion?

The cost of servants is rolled in. Keep in mind that the living expenses rules are quite abstract; you could be living in an inn, which has servants to clean, prepare food, serve food, fetch bathwater, groom horses, etcetera. Or you could be at a mansion with a full staff. In both cases your monthly fee is covering the cost of servants, it's just more direct in the case of the mansion.

Quote:

On an associated note, if a character is maintaining a set cost of living and has a family, would he have to pay full cost of living for each family member, or just an extra, say 50%, per person after the first.

Currently I am playing a nobleman maintaining a wealthy cost of living for himself, his wife and unmarried sister (300 gp per month). Is it feasible that the cost would be lower than 300 because much of the expenses (house, cook, etc.) are already covered for one person or three?

I'd say he just pays the cost of living for himself, and all his dependents don't cost extra. Before you say "HUH?", think about it. If you've got a wife and kids you live differently than if you're single, though you might be spending the same amount. A person with $60000, living single, has more disposable income than someone with a wife and three kids, so he'll have more toys, but the general standard of living will remain the same. The single guy spends his money on girlfriends (or gambling, or whores, or drinking), while the family man spends it on feeding and clothing his dependents.

Oh, and to beat down the greedy PCs, a PC is never a dependent. Make them spend their own damn money.

[Malachi Tarchannen]

I always treated the cost of living like a wizard's familiar...or Physician's Mutual insurance -- it's there when you need it.

[Rezdave]

It really depends upon how deep you want to get into details and economics. Either go with the basic numbers and hand-wave the details, or get more into the details but then work up with specific numbers.

As mentioned by Helic, the cost table assumes the character is leading an adventuring life on the road, taking rooms at Inns each night and eating most meals in a tavern. For maintaining a "Household", I've generally cut those numbers in half, with the exception of "Poor" (which was 2gp in the DMG) since it (previously) assumed living at the subsistence level of farming/gardening/hunting with few meals purchased.

After making this cut in expenses, I add back in all household staff, since this is entirely variable based upon the desires of the PC. For NPCs, you would just go with the straight numbers, but PCs might want to live large but support little staff, or live more frugally but hire more of the "little people" (or fund their own mini-militia???).

I disagree with Helic that family is free. His example is flawed, because it assumes that the person spends all their disposable income in both cases, and because it doesn't not account that the fact that the "single" man leads a higher CoL lifestyle than the "family" man. It does not account for leading a frugal lifestyle in both cases nor having declining savings, nor for the option of a wife who provides income (work or inheritance/dowery) or many other factors. Also, a noble might choose to support himself at one level and maintain his high lifestyle but not afford the same comforts to his dependents.

I'd price families somewhat like magic item properties ... 100% for the first, 75% for the second and 50% for each additional "similar". Thus 100% for the noble, 75% for the wife and 50% for each child. Alternately, from a historical perspective, this might be 100% for the nobleman, 75% for the first wife/son/daughter and 50% for each additional wife/son/daughter due to economies of scale.

I don't really agree with HOHM's math for pricing NPCs, particularly the assumption that everyone is armed. That table is basically to be used for "adventuring" NPC and not "everyone else", which is what household staff are. No maidservant "is likely to be handy with a Dagger" ... when confronted by a threat they will scream in hysterical terror and either freeze on the spot or flee in stark terror ... whichever is more inconvenient for the person attempting to aid/help/rescue them. Hiring a combatant-staff will be significantly more expensive (at least 1-2sp/day per person). Whether or not to pay the staff above the minimums is an individual option. Note that "pay" is actually cost, not necessarily what goes in their pocket. They might make no more money than the staff at the next manor over, but are more expensive to maintain because you dress them in uniforms to impress the neighbors upon their visits.

Furthermore, the "Total GP Value" probably represents many years of savings if not some amount of inherited gear, and should not be replaceable with a single year's income. A "common" maid earns 7sp/week so there's no need to pay a "high-class" one more than double that (note that we're talking basic "invisible/behind-the-scenes" maid, not a valet/chambermaid who will be expected to have some social graces to interact with family and guests).

As for Experts, they will still probably be on a "work-for-hire" basis, but a smith will need a forge and a carpenter will need a workshop and so forth. Those kinds of expenses will be front-end costs to the supporting Master/Mistress-of-the-House. When I've calculated such costs, I front-end the entire cost and then add up-keep for each workspace at 10% of the total value ... basically, everything wears out and needs to be entirely replaced each 10 years or so (not that this might be material costs for day-to-day household maintenance, and not just buying hammers, saws and anvils).

Anyway, those are some of the concepts I use.

FWIW,

Rez

[gigglestick]

I think that it depends on your GM as well and what he thinks of as Wealthy and Very Wealthy.

Depending on era - A lord with a mansion (without fortifications) might expect to have:

Butler
Housekeeper
Upstairs Maid
Downstairs Maid
Parlour Maid
Nanny (or Governess)
Coachman
Footman
Stableboy
Groundskeeper
Valet (for his kit)
Ladies' Maid (for her kit)
Chambermaid
Cook
Chef
Scullerymaid
Bootboy

The Coachman, Footman, (and sometimes Stbleboy and Butler) would act as "guards" for the household (War 1).

Almost everyone else would be either commoners (maids) or experts (cook, groundskeeper, and maybe the valet, butler, and housekeeper)

Butler and Housekeeper (and often Cook and Valet) would have their own rooms. The stableboy might sleep in a room in the stables (and might be an expert for the Blacksmithing skill). A Nanny might room with the miads but a Governess would probably have her own room as well. The others would be roomed in common rooms: 2-8 each, segregated by gender. (in the case of a married couple acting as servants, they would probably have their own room and their offspring might be younger maids, etc.)

I would imagine that all of these would make for excellent plot devices and dependents to be helped and/or dealt with.

Then add in the PCs and you can have some real chaos.

The cost of living expenditure should be worth it just for the additional roleplaying alone...

[Ordinary Kraken]

Cheers for all the input,

Our GM is mostly hand-waving a lot of things like the cost-of-living, but also encourages us to put in the extra effort like accounting for it (if we want to).

The main reason being, that in our campaign (Curse of the Crimson Throne) we have three members of the group essentially employed by external/third party organisations (one is a member of the Guard, one a Paladin of Abadar, and the third a Priestess of Pharasma) and the assumption is that each of these organisations provides a basic cost of living for them.

The remaining two characters are nobles (the nobleman and his sister mentioned in my first post). Because we maintain a much higher lifestyle than the others, we thought it was important to account for it. So realistically, I could probably put aside 100 gp per month and be done with it, but I want to add more detail to the character, and the GM will usually reward this kind of input with a bit more character attention, plot hooks, etc. Also, the way I see it, a decent lifestyle is as much a part of the trappings or "adventuring equipment" for a noble as the sword and plate is for fighter.

I am currently asuming that the bare basic household staff is covered in the cost of living - a cook, a sculelry maid, a house maid, doorman/footman, gardner, that kind of thing. The higher end servants are paid for seperatly - valet and lady's maids for the nobles.

I think I will use the 100%/75%/50% reduction suggested by Khuldar and Rezdave. I am also going to be applying the 50% cost of living for the resident servants (valet, lady's maids) as they are provided an average room and board as part of their salary.

Once again, thanks for your input, it has given me a few good ideas to work with.

[meatrace]

For servants I would pay them untrained hireling wages, or 1sp a day. 365sp annually or 36.5g is pretty menial. You could easily have 10 servants. Houses are usually rather cheap as well.

[gigglestick]

meatrace wrote:

For servants I would pay them untrained hireling wages, or 1sp a day. 365sp annually or 36.5g is pretty menial. You could easily have 10 servants. Houses are usually rather cheap as well.

Exactly, the majority of your servants are looking to get a job that is better than where they came from and has some level of prestige. (Lets face it, being a wizard's maid is better than being a barmaid or third daughter of a dirt farmer)

[Rezdave]

gigglestick wrote:

being a wizard's maid is better than being a barmaid or third daughter of a dirt farmer

Wizards don't hire maids. In fact, they don't hire any servants.

Instead, they get people coming to them for training and only need to provide food and a bed. These people are called "apprentices".

Furthermore, a well know Wizards might even be able to have wealthy families pay them for the "honor" of taking on a scion as an apprentice.

Finally, high-level Wizards may have an entire hierarchy of "apprentices" at a variety of levels (some are aka "cohorts") who support themselves and do tasks (from sweeping floors to scribing scrolls to enchanting items to researching legends of the master's next adventuring site) in return for training, access to spells or whatever else the master is offering.

R.

P.S. Plus, there's obviously unseen servant (or servant horde if your DM allows it).

[Helic]

Rezdave wrote:

gigglestick wrote:

being a wizard's maid is better than being a barmaid or third daughter of a dirt farmer

Wizards don't hire maids. In fact, they don't hire any servants.

Instead, they get people coming to them for training and only need to provide food and a bed. These people are called "apprentices".

Of course wizards hire maids! Attractive ones, at least. ^_^

[Mikaze]

gigglestick wrote:

Exactly, the majority of your servants are looking to get a job that is better than where they came from and has some level of prestige. (Lets face it, being a wizard's maid is better than being a barmaid or third daughter of a dirt farmer)

Depends on the wizard, of course!

"Jeeves! Where is Lucinda?"

"She stormed out yesterday, sir. She mentioned something about the fireplace catching her hands in its blast radius, the bound keketar in the basement howling obscenities constantly, and some awakened mice robbing her at knife-point in the kitchen."

"Oh my! I've been trying to recapture those mice! Did she catch any of them?"

"No sir. She also suggested that you do something anatomically improbable to yourself and die."

"I say!"

"Indeed, sir."

That and honestly, depending on the adventurers involved it could be a bit like being hired help around the Xavier Mansion. Sure it pays well, but is it worth the risk?

All that said, now I kind of want to play a half-orc barbarian with poorly informed aspirations of high-class culture hiring on a number of butlers and maids to help with the image, or an Andoren wizard who takes the time to educate each of his servents, from the butler to the stable boy, in magical theory.