Well ... I was just toying with the idea of creating some sort of "Noble" feats when it struck me that I could just post up a few thoughts and see how others handle the idea in their games.
Is it even all that common?
Do you allow PC's to be "noble"?
If "noble" how do the NPC's react differently to them?
I do this stuff all the time myself (thus considering Feats of some sort), so I figured it would be interesting to see other people's take on the matter.
for the most part in my games it comes down to being an rp element but no real statistical elements. that being said i would like to see some heritage feats that can give you some nifty things but i honestly have no idea what they would do.
Hmmm... Not sure how I'd approach different levels of nobility as a feat -- though you could go that route. If you did, I'd suggest that anything above minor nobility have a minimum character level as a prereq.
In addition, you might want to think about creating starting background packages for characters, something along the lines of a template, as well as using traits, as well as the 3.5 add-on concept of flaws. Also look at the Starting Occupations section of D20 Modern, and the expansion of them in D20 future, for ideas on ways to customize a character based on their background. The Windfall feat, if modified for the difference in wealth mechanics, IS a good feat for someone of the nobility to have.
Depending on how much of your campaign is played out-of-combat, you can also give situational modifiers based on the character's background. Members of the nobility have a certain "Standard" to uphold, which varies from culture to culture, regarding how they conduct themselves, how they interact with individuals of their own rank, those above, and those below them. this can be pure unadulterated snobbery, or a sense of "Noblesse Oblige". How well or poorly the PC holds himself to these standards will have a bearing on the reactions of others to them and vice versa. A character who holds himself above the riff-raff will probably not interact well with said riff-Raff, while a noble character who spends too much time with "Unsavory" characters (PC or NPC) will probably find herself snubbed among her "peers".
Now that I have had time to express my thoughts and think about it, I do have one feat I could suggest:
Peerage
The character is a minor member of the nobilty. Knowledge (Nobility) and Diplomacy become permanent class skills for the character, and if the character possesses levels in a class for which either of those skills is a class skill, the character gains a +1 bonus to that skill.
In past games, I've usually just run this as part of character background. Sometimes this comes with the agreement from the player that their background may be used as plot fodder---their prestige may allow them to get into some areas more easily, but they may also be more noticed, or their obligations related to status may also corner them in certain situations. Usually this has worked out well, as I give the player extra information he would know, and normally people who create backgrounds like this don't mind them being folded into the plot (and again, I always get their agreement first). Mind, I've seldom have had a player want to be someone of truly prominent standing, usually minor nobles at best.
Mechanically speaking, this is where Pathfinder's Trait system can come in handy--take a couple traits to reflect the character's social status and/or wealth. The OGL traits has "Natural-Born Leader" and "Rich Family," the former which gives a boost to Leadership amongst other things, the latter which gives extra starting gold.
I think the Adventure Paths have other relevant Campaign Traits (Kingmaker has several in relation to nobles and the like, which you can get in the free Player's Guide .pdf), and it's certainly easy enough to make your own (for example, I'd like to see one that provides Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty as a class skill, amongst other things).
For someone who is a young noble destined to rule a large group of people, the Leadership feat is a natural choice when they qualify, as the many followers would account for their servants and vassals, etc.
I have no problem with noble characters, but then again, most of the campaigns we had in the last time didn't take place in places where the nobility has too much power, and it's usually nothing like "crown prince of the second most powerful noble house in the kingdom" or anything.
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Well ... I was just toying with the idea of creating some sort of "Noble" feats when it struck me that I could just post up a few thoughts and see how others handle the idea in their games.
Is it even all that common?
Don't know how common it is but we use nobles in our games NPC and PC alike.
Do you allow PC's to be "noble"?
Sure do, it can be a lot of fun for the GM and player alike if done well.
If "noble" how do the NPC's react differently to them?
Depends, is it the same country? A allied country? A hostile country? One that has never heard of them before? And of course if the PC's noble family has a reputation good or bad and how the PC himself of course acts. Does the PC act like a noble? Etc.
I do this stuff all the time myself (thus considering Feats of some sort), so I figured it would be interesting to see other people's take on the matter.
Typically the NPC or PC will start off with a level in Noble class. We made a noble class we like from a few D20 source books, Conan, Green Ronin and a couple of others that escape my mind at the moment. Then they sometimes stay in that class and other times take other classes.
I had a 'Noble' class before I switched to a PF based game. With the greater number of feats, I will be using them to grant players the little perks and such due those born 'Noble'. The REAL Nobles are way too busy running things to be mucking about feeding the wandering monsters.
@Bwang: any chance you could post up that class in like homebrew or something? Every class I've seen of Noble is just ... totally lack luster and disappointing.
For the rest - what kinds of things would you all suggest are "noble" qualities that should/could be made into feats for selection by any base class in order to make them "noble" in game somehow?
Myself - I'm looking at the following as a starting point:
1) Money - some sort of greater access that is automatic w/out need to go and kill things to take their stuff, but not an amount that's so much that it's killer. Probably like X per level or as a factor of level or something. (level x amount = bonus gained as like a stipend or something). Looking at the 'rich parents' thing, 900 gp is a 1/2 feat, but is a 1 time bonus. For some sort of renewable, level based thing maybe 500 (about 1/2) or 200 (about 1/4) might be better?
2) Pulling Rank - ie: commanding others outright. Like the ability to call militia into service, or take command of some soldiers or something.
3) Favors - trading "favors" somehow with noble string-pulling. Should also open the PC up to granting favors in return (ie: adventure plots, etc).
4) Extended Influence - most of this stuff should be regionally limited, but maybe a feat that extends to +1 more country through allies, family influence, national allegiances, etc. Maybe taken multiple times, each one allowing full use of other "noble" feats in these other countries/regions of power/whatever.
@Bwang: any chance you could post up that class in like homebrew or something? Every class I've seen of Noble is just ... totally lack luster and disappointing.
For the rest - what kinds of things would you all suggest are "noble" qualities that should/could be made into feats for selection by any base class in order to make them "noble" in game somehow?
Myself - I'm looking at the following as a starting point:
1) Money - some sort of greater access that is automatic w/out need to go and kill things to take their stuff, but not an amount that's so much that it's killer. Probably like X per level or as a factor of level or something. (level x amount = bonus gained as like a stipend or something). Looking at the 'rich parents' thing, 900 gp is a 1/2 feat, but is a 1 time bonus. For some sort of renewable, level based thing maybe 500 (about 1/2) or 200 (about 1/4) might be better?
2) Pulling Rank - ie: commanding others outright. Like the ability to call militia into service, or take command of some soldiers or something.
3) Favors - trading "favors" somehow with noble string-pulling. Should also open the PC up to granting favors in return (ie: adventure plots, etc).
4) Extended Influence - most of this stuff should be regionally limited, but maybe a feat that extends to +1 more country through allies, family influence, national allegiances, etc. Maybe taken multiple times, each one allowing full use of other "noble" feats in these other countries/regions of power/whatever.
OK, if you start with a level 1-only feat that grants the PC a minor title, also give it the following bonuses:
1) Makes "Profession - Nobility" a skill that is available only to characters with the Nobility feat. They can make the profession check each week without the "dedicated work" that other professions require.
2) grants a +2 bonus to bluff and Intimidate checks when interacting with those of lower station who owe allegiance to the Feudal state of which the character is a noble.
3&4) +2 bonus to diplomacy when interacting with other members of the nobility.
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Hi All
I just saw your post as I'm doing currently doing research on how to do my own Noble PC class.
The first thing I started thing about is what does a noble entail and how they would fit into a PC class based system. What I came up with is the Knight and Noble Base Classes. And am now working on feats (called social feats) that grant some form of nobility to a character. The most important feats are, Knighted, Land Grant, Noble Title, Royalty and Sovereign. All of which of multiple tiers, except for Sovereign.
Knighted: Which is as it's name implies. The character has been knighted and is in the service of whom ever he was knighted by. There are 3 tiers, where the 3rd tier is hereditary (can be inherited by a character's heir). This is the "easiest" feat for non-noble characters to get, as it normally involved them doing something heroic that benefits whomever knighted the character.
Land Grant: Again, as the name implies, a character has been granted reign over some land. With the land and/or population getting bigger the higher up the tiers go.
Noble Title: The character has been granted or inherited a noble title. my current tiers are: Squire, Baronet, Baron, Earl and Duke. With privileges gained depending on the title.
Royalty: The character is a member of the Royal Family. The higher the tier, the closer to the crown. If a character has Royalty, he'll almost always also have Noble Title as well.
Sovereign: You are the ruler of your own kingdom or empire. Requires the Royalty feat.
Well, that's basically what I've got so far. And am now currently working on the Knight and Noble classes with these base feats in mind. Let me know what you think.
I would have liked if Aristocrat and Noble were templates rather than classes. They just don't feel right to me as classes.
There are some nobles in the APs I wouldn't mind handling if you know what I mean... ;-)
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I would have liked if Aristocrat and Noble were templates rather than classes. They just don't feel right to me as classes.
Agreed. I would see Social Class/Rank as a template. Things like: common & noble. It would be assumed that most everything as already presented is 'common.' 'Noble' would get elite stats, maybe K(noblity) as an automatic class skill. I like the Diplomacy bonus when dealing with other nobles and Intimidate with commoners. Higher gold. But I'd make land ownership a feat, like Heirloom Weapon. So you could have a "Noble Dwarf" or a "Noble Elf." Seems like it'd be a AP +1 (or whatever that racial-ability class-adjustment number is called). Actually, that way, a Noble Human Aristocrat 1 would still be equivalent to a level 1 PC (NPC classes are like level 0, right?).
For PCs, they already have elite stats and plenty of gold (usually), so it'd only be the Diplomacy/Intimidate adjustments. Maybe +2 Diplomacy w/ other nobles, but -2 Diplomacy with commoners, +2 Intimidate on commoners but -2 Intimidate on other nobles. Does that even out?
Just thinking out loud. But, yeah, I'd love and easy way to make PCs and NPCs "noble."
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Most of my noble NPC's have PC classes - very few of them take levels in Aristocrat. More frequently, they are fighters, wizards, and clerics.
PC nobility can be awesome, and it usually starts with the Leadership feat. The questions are these: do you want your game to go that way? Do you want your PC's to command armies? Do you want to give them a stronghold? Or do they just want special treatment? Do they only want to get into the opera and get invited to the nice parties? How noble will you let them get?
If you need rules for nobility, I would suggest the following:
1 - Leadership feat. I mentioned it already, but it bears repeating. Twice.
2 - Make good use of the Appraise, Knowledge (nobility), Sense Motive and Diplomacy skills. Make sure your noble characters have at least a couple ranks in these skills. Nobles are constantly appraising each other, and courting the favor of powerful people.
3 - Don't enforce too many feat taxes or penalties. If the people want to be noble, that's really more of a storyline or game flavor thing. It confers no combat bonuses, and few enough out-of-combat bonuses.
4 - If it seems appropriate, you could introduce "Purchasing Power" as a skill or as a feat. This means you have a powerful patron or some such that is willing to invest in things that make him money. Make sure you don't let the characters get 'better gear for free' with this, ever.
5 - Did I mention Leadership? I did? Good. I did say I'd repeat it twice, didn't I?
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Well ... I was just toying with the idea of creating some sort of "Noble" feats when it struck me that I could just post up a few thoughts and see how others handle the idea in their games.
Is it even all that common?
Do you allow PC's to be "noble"?
If "noble" how do the NPC's react differently to them?
I do this stuff all the time myself (thus considering Feats of some sort), so I figured it would be interesting to see other people's take on the matter.
Of course we do. And in our game, there's two easy ways to do it.
1) Take whatever class you want to play, buy Diplomacy & Knowledge: Nobility regardless of whether or not they're class skills. Avoid dumping Charisma. :) Choose a Pathfinder Trait (or a Forgotten Realms Regional Background! Or both!) that reflects your noble upbringing.
2) If you want to be a "generic noble," play a re-fluffed Rogue or a Bard. Both classes reflect, IMO, the training and education of someone born from money. The Bard especially covers the whole "Leader Of Men" concept. Arguably, the Tome of Secrets Warlord and Swashbuckler would also be appropriate.
Beyond that, it's all roleplay with the DM. Walking around wearing your coat-of-arms is like walking around with the symbol of your god on your uniform. NPC's react accordingly.
Ideas I like (freely pilfered from other rulesets)
Yes get more money, either just at the start (here's some cash son, now get out and never come back) or as a stipend, but the noble has to buy flashier versions of gear (ie more expensive just 'cause they look good), with some penalty if he goes the cheap route.
A bonus to Intimidate the lower classes, with an equivilent penalty to Diplomacy (it's easier just to pull rank). This could also be a bonus to his Leadership Rating.
Lot's of Knowledge skills as class skills, and some colourful Noble Feats. Leadership as a bonus feat.
Cheers
Mark
When I'm starting up a game, I have the players come up with most of the stats and whatnot and character concept, but then I have them roll a d12 to see what social class they belong to. 1 is something like a recently emancipated slave or serf while 12 is a member of the royal family of somewhere.
PC starting wealth is left the same. Take two given 1st level fighters with the same gear. The emancipated serf was impressed into some army for some war that is now over and he has his freedom and what to him is a fortune in gold in the form of his army pay or really nice loot he found on the battlefield. The royal? He's the ninth child of some impoverished king of some podunk kingdom somewhere who's never going to get anywhere near the throne so has been given what little the family can afford and is sent out to find his way and is pretty much in the same boat as the emancipated serf.
Give them both a few levels and piles of adventuring loot, they may set off to found their own kingdoms, or the noble may go back home and get his father to settle extra lands and titles on him in exchange for gold for his sister's dowries and if his friend the former serf wants to get ennobled, well, same deal for him.
It makes for a lot of fun roleplaying. I've got one player currently playing a high noble and while he's fine for dealing with fellow aristocrats, it's a running gag that he's rather clueless about what's going on with the servants, who are of course the ones who really know what's going on in most castles.
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After a bit of work I've refined the feat selection, and the Knight and Noble base classes, somewhat. The Knight is a combination of the Knight found in the Tome of Secrets and the cavalier in the Advanced Player's guide. And the Noble is a suped up Aristocrat with expectational leadership and organisation skills, who know hows to fight. I've also introduced two new skills Knowledge [Stewardship] and Knowledge [Warfare], of which I still have to work out the mechanics.
The feats are: Expectational Leadership, Heir, Improved Status, Knighted, Land Grant, Military Rank, Nobility, Royalty & Sovereign. I've removed the tiers from all previous feats and combined them into Improved Status.
Knight, Nobility and Royalty are feats that grant you said status. Each with their own set of benefits and penalties, etc. You also start out as the lowest rank within your status, Knight-Errant, Squire, Distant Relation to the Sovereign which equates something to being a Squire with the title Prince of the Realm attached. With the Improved Status feat you can increase your standing: Knights - Knight-Banneret or Knight-Baron; Nobility - Baronet, Baron, Earl or Duke; Royalty - Uncle, Brother, Grandson, Son of the of the Sovereign.
Land Grant also improves your given status, as you hold title to lord over a domain, whereas all other titles are court titles only. So a Squire with Land Grant is of higher rank than a court Squire, but not of a court Baronet. The size of the land also depends on your rank.
Military Rank will follow a similar tier as Improved Status, but gear towards military use that I have still to work out.
Heir and Sovereign are very special feats.
Heir is a place holder feat that indicates that you are the current heir to a specific title that is worked out by you and the GM which requires you to have ranks in Nobility or Royalty and Improved Status. So if you are the heir of a duke you need to have Nobility and Improved Status (Earl). This feat basically allows you to function as if your were already the title holder, with some exceptions, until the feat is replaced Nobility (Duke).
Sovereign means you are the absolute ruler of your kingdom, empire or city state and your words are as law. Very dangerous feat, but fun to roleplay.
More to follow as I work it out :D