A monk is grappling (and choosing to damage) a wizard. The wizard is trying to get a spell off. What is the formula for his Concentration Check DC?
A) Grappled while Casting -> 10 + monk's CMB + Spell Level
B) Injured while Casting -> 10 + Damage Dealt + Spell Level
C) Combo Platter -> 10 + monk's CMB + Damage Dealt + Spell Level
D) A or B - whichever is worse
E) Something Else
And would it make a difference if both grapplers were nekkid?
Kidding. :)
I would go with A, but I understand the confusion.
Well, the way that I have always ruled the "injured while casting" is from attacks of opportunity, rather than just being damaged in the same round that they cast in.
So, because of that, I would rule that it is option A. I might also require them to beat the "casting defensively" DC (if it is higher) to not provoke an attack of opportunity from the grappler...which then might provoke another concentration check for being injured while casting...
I would go with A, but I understand the confusion.
Thanks, Xum. I think there are situational effects that could make the answer obviously one or the other. For instance, if the wizard had the higher initiative, he/she would act before the monk could do grappling damage... in which case 'A' is the obvious choice.
I'm just not sure about what would happen if the monk damaged the wizard during the grapple and then the wizard tried to fire off a spell. I'm not sure I've seen anything spot-on in the rules but I'm not a rules expert. I'm hoping our illustrious body of experts here know of applicable rules or can reach a consensus on what is a fair solution.
I think what Maril(hate that name, reminds me of an evil lord of waterdeep...bastard) said is dead on. I would go with that.
PS: Maril, nothing against thee, just the name. :)
No problem, Xum. Luckily, my name has a U in it.
Well, the way that I have always ruled the "injured while casting" is from attacks of opportunity, rather than just being damaged in the same round that they cast in.
So, because of that, I would rule that it is option A. I might also require them to beat the "casting defensively" DC (if it is higher) to not provoke an attack of opportunity from the grappler...which then might provoke another concentration check for being injured while casting...
Interesting points. I guess it depends on how you adjudicate a grapple and RAW. I could see someone arguing that their grappler is doing a 'crushing bearhug' in which case some DMs might adjudicate the grapple as 'Continuous Damage while Casting'... I'm pretty sure that ain't RAW but folks do take liberties.
|
As far as I'm aware the only time damage causes a concentration check is when it's ongoing or if it's actually inflicted during the casting. Unless the damage is from a readied action the monk isn't going to be damaging during casting.
If you do have 2 effects that trigger concentration checks on the same spell you should make the wizard make 2 concentration checks.
Mauril, just so I'm clear on how you see the order of things.
1. Grapple happens.
2. Monk maintains grapple and damages wizard
3. Wizard attempts to 'cast while grappled' drawing an AoO (cast while grappled is stopped until AoO is resolved)
4. Monk hits him for more damage.
Would the wizard then have to make two checks - an 'Injured while casting' first (the resolution of the AoO) and then the 'cast while grappled' check?
No problem, Xum. Luckily, my name has a U in it.
Yeah, missed that, my hatred for the Maril name, made blind. Sorry about that. :)
Mauril, just so I'm clear on how you see the order of things.
1. Grapple happens.
2. Monk maintains grapple and damages wizard
3. Wizard attempts to 'cast while grappled' drawing an AoO (cast while grappled is stopped until AoO is resolved)
4. Monk hits him for more damage.Would the wizard then have to make two checks - an 'Injured while casting' first (the resolution of the AoO) and then the 'cast while grappled' check?
I think it should work the otherway around. He would try casting while grappled (roll Caster check there), provoke opportunity (if hit another roll). If he fails the first, he doesn't have to try the second. If he succeds then he rolls again for the damage from the opportunity.
As far as I'm aware the only time damage causes a concentration check is when it's ongoing or if it's actually inflicted during the casting. Unless the damage is from a readied action the monk isn't going to be damaging during casting.
If you do have 2 effects that trigger concentration checks on the same spell you should make the wizard make 2 concentration checks.
Thanks, Ogre. That sounds very RAW to me. So IF the monk did use a held action (although it escapes me why he would choose to take that single held attack instead of doing his normal grapple damage and then a second AoO attack) would the resolution be any different? Seems like he'd still make the same two checks but only suffer 1 attack from the monk.
I think it should work the otherway around. He would try casting while grappled (roll Caster check there), provoke opportunity (if hit another roll). If he fails the first, he doesn't have to try the second. If he succeds then he rolls again for the damage from the opportunity.Mauril, just so I'm clear on how you see the order of things.
1. Grapple happens.
2. Monk maintains grapple and damages wizard
3. Wizard attempts to 'cast while grappled' drawing an AoO (cast while grappled is stopped until AoO is resolved)
4. Monk hits him for more damage.Would the wizard then have to make two checks - an 'Injured while casting' first (the resolution of the AoO) and then the 'cast while grappled' check?
I'm no rules lawyer but as I recall an AoO is an immediate action that stops the initiating action until it is resolved. I would take that to mean the AoO and the check which it generates would be resolved first. If I'm wrong on that, feel free to correct me. Not that the exact order would matter much - either way, make two checks. If either of them fails, your spell is toast.
I think it should work the otherway around. He would try casting while grappled (roll Caster check there), provoke opportunity (if hit another roll). If he fails the first, he doesn't have to try the second. If he succeds then he rolls again for the damage from the opportunity.Mauril, just so I'm clear on how you see the order of things.
1. Grapple happens.
2. Monk maintains grapple and damages wizard
3. Wizard attempts to 'cast while grappled' drawing an AoO (cast while grappled is stopped until AoO is resolved)
4. Monk hits him for more damage.Would the wizard then have to make two checks - an 'Injured while casting' first (the resolution of the AoO) and then the 'cast while grappled' check?
I'm no rules lawyer but as I recall an AoO is an immediate action that stops the initiating action until it is resolved. I would take that to mean the AoO and the check which it generates would be resolved first. If I'm wrong on that, feel free to correct me. Not that the exact order would matter much - either way, make two checks. If either of them fails, your spell is toast.
You are correct. But I might even state that you wouldn't provoke from casting in a grapple if you were unable to cast, see? that's where I'm comming from.
You are correct. But I might even state that you wouldn't provoke from casting in a grapple if you were unable to cast, see? that's where I'm comming from.
Indeed! The logic side of my brain likes that. I was beginning to feel bad for our hypothetical wizard - he was looking to take a hell of a beating just to get off a Magic Missile.
Of course, he probably had it comin'. :)
|
|
I'm no rules lawyer but as I recall an AoO is an immediate action that stops the initiating action until it is resolved. I would take that to mean the AoO and the check which it generates would be resolved first. If I'm wrong on that, feel free to correct me. Not that the exact order would matter much - either way, make two checks. If either of them fails, your spell is toast.
Since both the monk and the wizard have the 'grappled' condition neither can make attacks of opportunity so the monk's AoO is something that will never happen. Other characters around might get an AoO on the wizard though.
"If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). "
I'm late getting back to this thread, but Ogre's proper reading of the rules makes me weighing in on the order of operations mostly moot now. But, in case anyone cares to know what my opinion would have been if you could use AoOs in a grapple, here it is.
X: Monk has grappled wizard
1: Monk maintains grapple, dealing damage
2: Wizard attempts to cast spell, which requires the grapple concentration check
3: If wizard succeeds on this concentration check, he provokes an AoO
3a: If wizard fails, turn ends
4: Monk makes AoO for casting spell
5: If monk deals damage from AoO, wizard makes another concentration check for being damaged while casting
6: If wizard succeeds, the spell goes off
6a: If wizard fails, turn ends
I might also have allowed the wizard to cast the spell defensively, making two concentration checks in Step 2, which could bring the total to 3 concentration checks for a single spell.
Keep in mind that, should the grappling pair be standing near to one of the monk's allies (who threatens the wizard), this scenario might still happen, with "monk" being replaced with "monk's ally" in 4 and 5.
Let's clear this up.
First, the monk also has the Grappled condition:
Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
So the monk will never take an AoO against the wizard that he is grappling. Therefore, the wizard being a genius with a 20+ INT is smart enough not to both with Casting Defensively, therefore he doesn't need that concentration check.
However, because the wizard has the Grappled condition, he cannot freely cast spells:
A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.
This is not Casting Defensively, but it is necessitated by being grappled. If this check succeeds, the wizard casts his spell and does not provoke an AoO for doing so.
Now, as to the OP's question.
Damage you take at some random time during the round never interferes with spells you begin casting in your turn. A hundred different enemies can damage this wizard on their turn in the initiative order, and if the wizard survives it, he may begin a spell on his initiative without fear of any of that "old" damage interrupting his casting.
So, your monk chokes the wizard on his initiative turn, doing damage. Later in the same round, the wizard wants to begin casting a spell. That previous damage from the monk is "old" damage and will not interrupt the wizard.
That rules out B, C, and D right there. Those are never the answer. So only A remains (well, E remains too, but look at the first part of this post where I quote the SRD regarding casting while grappled).
So it is definitely A because the book says so. Which rules out E by default.
Side note: I keep saying the wizard "begins to cast" because this all works differently if we're talking about a full-round spell, such as a Summon Monster X spell. Thos CAN be interrupted by the damage the monk does on his own turn. Hopefully our genius wizard figures that out and chooses something a little more useful, like Gaseous Form, or Teleport, Polymorphs himself into a colossal dragon...
So, how then, can our hapless monk ensure that he completely stops this wizard from successfully casting a spell? If the wizard merely needs to make a Concentration check against DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level, he might actually succeed at some of those, right?
Well, yes, but not many.
Let's say we're talking about a 10th level human monk vs. a 10th level human wizard.
Monks CMB: 10 (BAB/Maneuver Training) + 7 (STR 24) = 17.
Wizard's Concentration bonus: 10 (level) + 7 (INT 24) = 17.
So the DC for that wizard to Teleport to safety would be 10 + 17 + 5. He would roll a d20 + 17 and needs to hit a 32 DC. This will succeed on a 15 or higher (30% chance).
So 2/3 of his Teleport spells will fail while grappled in this situation. Sure, he could cast a lower spell level to increase his odds, but he would fail even a 1st level spell half of the time.
But that's not good enough. Our monk wants a guaranteed lock - no spells cast at all. How can he do it?
He could try to Ready an action.
If the monk readies an action to damage the wizard if he starts casting, then he will interrupt the spell. This is not an AoO so it is allowed by the rules. Also, since it's not an AoO, the wizard cannot use Casting Defensively to avoid the attack. And since the monk is grappling, all he must do is make his normal roll to maintain the grapple and he can automatically apply his damage:
Monk's damage: 1d10 + 7 (STR) = 3 (Amulet of Mighty Fists). Let's call it an average of 16 HP damage.
Now the wizard automatically takes ~16 damage each time he tries to cast a spell, forcing him to make a Concentration check or lose the spell:
DC = 10 + 16 + 5 = 31.
The wizard makes the same roll, d20 + 17 and needs to roll a 14 or higher, a 35% chance to succeed. Yikes, that's worse than the DC for just grappling him.
But wait!
Don't both rules apply? Yes, indeed they do. The wizard is being grappled, so to even try to cast that spell, he must make the first check (Casting while Grappled). If he fails, he loses the spell. If he succeeds, he begins casting, triggering the Readied action and the monk probably maintains the grapple and damages the wizard for ~16 HP, forcing the second concentration check.
Given average damage from the monk, that puts the wizard down to something very close to a 10% chance to successfully cast that teleport.
Now we're talking! The poor wizard is probably quite doomed.
It's still not a guarantee, but it's much much better than just hanging on and mindlessly choking him on the monk's own turn.
p.s. If the monk happens to whip up an Enlarge Person before the fight begins, say, from a potion, he will do 2d8 damage + 11 for an average of 20 damage, bumping the wizard's chances on his Damaged while Casting check down from 35% to 15%. Furthermore, his increased size and STR will bump the Casting While Grappled roll down from 30% to 20%, resulting in a net of 3% chance for the wizard to cast his Teleport spell (given average damage). That's dang near a lock right there.
I have a corollary question along these lines. If instead of a spell, the wizard tries to use a spell-like ability, such as his arcane missile if he is an evoker? The grappled condition specifies spells, however, in the definition of spell-like ability, it says that they are treated in every way like spells, except for the fact that you do not need components to cast.
So, since some spell-like abilities do not have a spell level, how would you figure the DC for using them while grappled? Or, is there some reason why using a spell-like ability while grappled does not require a concentration check?
|
|
Suffice to say that if a character is grappling a caster and wishing to focus on preventing them from casting it will be exceedingly difficult. Combat casting helps a lot, but I try and have multiple ways of getting out of that situation.
A few thoughts, many require you be higher level:
I'm sure there are more ways.
One curiosity is if the monk readies the action "when he starts casting a spell" if the wizard holds his action he will never get hit.
If you can wait for a round or two ready an action "immediately after the monk attacks me cast dimension door". If the monk is waiting to interrupt you you will be in a readied action deadlock, both parties waiting for the other to act. If he simply attacks you then you will act after him and just need to do the one concentration check for casting while grappled (which is still pretty tough). If your party is winning this might be the best tactic.
|
|
I have a corollary question along these lines. If instead of a spell, the wizard tries to use a spell-like ability, such as his arcane missile if he is an evoker? The grappled condition specifies spells, however, in the definition of spell-like ability, it says that they are treated in every way like spells, except for the fact that you do not need components to cast.
So, since some spell-like abilities do not have a spell level, how would you figure the DC for using them while grappled? Or, is there some reason why using a spell-like ability while grappled does not require a concentration check?
Spell likes do require a concentration check.
Most spell likes are equivalent to a spell, you would use the spell level of the spell or the spell level of the closest appropriate spell using the spell level for your class if possible. For arcane missile or any of the 1st level SLAs it would equal to a 1st level spell. For the 8th/ 9th level powers consider them 4th level spells unless there is a more appropriate spell to compare them to.
Hi.
And don't forget that "The only spells you can cast
while grappling or pinned are those without somatic
components and whose material components (if any) you
have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration
check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell
you’re casting) or lose the spell" (Casting spells, Chapter 9)