From the Environment chapter of the Core Rulebook...
Magically Treated Walls: These walls are stronger than average, with a greater hardness, more hit points, and a higher break DC. Magic can usually double the hardness and hit points of a wall and add up to 20 to the break DC. A magically treated wall also gains a saving throw against spells that could affect it, with the save bonus equaling 2 + 1/2 the caster level of the magic reinforcing the wall. Creating a magic wall requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat and the expenditure of 1,500 gp for each 10-foot-by-10-foot wall section.
...Right above this particular entry in the book is a table which gives the typical statistics for walls, including those made of paper (who does that anyways?).
Could my wizard apply this rule to his spellbook, thereby giving it 20 hardness, 51 hit points, and making it far more resistant to magical attacks?
For 1,500gp, it seems like a worthwhile deal for the added security it would provide to one's most treasures possession.
Where do you get 20 hardness and 51 hp from? A paper wall has 0 hardness and 1 hp for a 10'x10' section; double that would be 0 hardness and 2 hp.
At any rate, I doubt you can turn a wall into a book (using origami?) but I'd give you bonus points for creativity. :-)
Where do you get 20 hardness and 51 hp from? A paper wall has 0 hardness and 1 hp for a 10'x10' section; double that would be 0 hardness and 2 hp.
The "magically treated" option says you add +20 hardness and double the hit points. The table also has a footnote which says that the magical treatment causes the hit points double OR add +50 hp, whichever is more.
Also, creativity and fun is the point of the game. :)
well if your book is wall size and thickness maybe, otherwise no.
Where do you get 20 hardness and 51 hp from? A paper wall has 0 hardness and 1 hp for a 10'x10' section; double that would be 0 hardness and 2 hp.The "magically treated" option says you add +20 hardness and double the hit points. The table also has a footnote which says that the magical treatment causes the hit points double OR add +50 hp, whichever is more.
Also, creativity and fun is the point of the game. :)
Ah. The quote you posted above said "double the hardness and hit points of a wall", so you can understand my confusion.
Ah. The quote you posted above said "double the hardness and hit points of a wall", so you can understand my confusion.
The footnote on the table says "or +50 hp, whichever is greater". The rules text (which is what is in the original post) only mentions doubling when it comes to hp. I am not sure I have seen a Pathfinder-specific statement on the subject, but the rule in D&D 3.x was that in any contradiction, the text overrules the table.
There is no reason a spellcaster could not apply the same approach to a spellbook (requiring Craft Wondrous Item to begin), but the results would NOT be +50 hp, I suspect. Your DM gets to make this call.
Also, the D&D 3.5 Sourcebook "Complete Arcane" (I think, or it might have been "Complete Mage") had a whole section on alternative spellbooks and protective modifications for them.
well if your book is wall size and thickness maybe, otherwise no.
A magically treated 10x10 wall whose depth is paper thin would have 51 hp. A person could argue that, if it could be applied to a book at all, each individual page would have 51 hp (since total hp are generally determined by the narrowest dimension of an object).
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well if your book is wall size and thickness maybe, otherwise no.A magically treated 10x10 wall whose depth is paper thin would have 51 hp. A person could argue that, if it could be applied to a book at all, each individual page would have 51 hp (since total hp are generally determined by the narrowest dimension of an object).
I would certainly allow magically treating a spellbook but spellbooks are not walls and you wouldn't treat one as such. I would probably allow double hardness and hit points and the spell bonus. What is the hardness of a spellbook?
I would certainly allow magically treating a spellbook but spellbooks are not walls and you wouldn't treat one as such. I would probably allow double hardness and hit points and the spell bonus. What is the hardness of a spellbook?well if your book is wall size and thickness maybe, otherwise no.A magically treated 10x10 wall whose depth is paper thin would have 51 hp. A person could argue that, if it could be applied to a book at all, each individual page would have 51 hp (since total hp are generally determined by the narrowest dimension of an object).
Sounds fair to me.
For a single page, hardness is 0. For an entire spellbook (two thick covers and all the pages in between), I would guess hardness 5 (roughly equivalent to wood, which paper is made out of).
I am not sure but I still use the rules from magic of farun
Bad chart here
Cover---- Wt-----Hardness HP---Cost
Leather-- 1 lb.-- 2-------0-----5 gp
Wood, thin 1 lb.- 3 ------1---- 20 gp
Metal, soft 5 lb. 5 ------4---- 100 gp
Metal, hard 5 lb. 7------ 5 ----200 gp
Dragonhide 2 lb. -4 ------2---- 200 gp
Slipcase 1 lb.--- 1------ 1--- +20 gp
Pages(100) Wt--- Hardness Hp-- Cost
Parchment- 2 lb. -0------ 1---- 10 gp
Paper, linen 2 lb. 0 ------2--- 20 gp
Vellum----- 2 lb. -0 -----3 ----50 gp
Bone or ivory 4 lb. 0 ----4 ----100 gp
Metal foil 20 lb.-- 1 ----8 ----500 gp
Alos had some lovely enchantments for a spell book as well
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I would certainly allow magically treating a spellbook but spellbooks are not walls and you wouldn't treat one as such. I would probably allow double hardness and hit points and the spell bonus. What is the hardness of a spellbook?well if your book is wall size and thickness maybe, otherwise no.A magically treated 10x10 wall whose depth is paper thin would have 51 hp. A person could argue that, if it could be applied to a book at all, each individual page would have 51 hp (since total hp are generally determined by the narrowest dimension of an object).Sounds fair to me.
For a single page, hardness is 0. For an entire spellbook (two thick covers and all the pages in between), I would guess hardness 5 (roughly equivalent to wood, which paper is made out of).
For what it's worth, if you want it bullet proof invest in a mithril cover for the book then magically harden that :)
Why stop there, your spell book has 100 pages so why not cut up a magically treated Paper wall for over 5000 HP in your spell book or at least will take considerable effort to destroy each individual page!
(who does that anyways?).
Apparently, so sayeth teh intrawebz, they're used as room dividers --so you can partition your living space into smaller rooms or fold them up and pack them away to create one big (or several larger) living spaces.
..oh and performing sneak attacks though them nets bonus XP!
I could see a wizard using them - assuming my enemies have the tools/abilities to make a mockery of most defenses, I'd simply want something that blocked LOS and was easy to repair!
Ooh, and my heavily armed gaurds could run through them to investigate the sounds of my elfy screams of terror.
NINJAS! EEK! *lifts wizard robes above knees, stands on chair squeeling*
Why stop there, your spell book has 100 pages so why not cut up a magically treated Paper wall for over 5000 HP in your spell book or at least will take considerable effort to destroy each individual page!
I like it! I knew there was a "by the rules" way to do it! Still, cutting through it in the first place would be a real pain.
Japanese used paper walls.
I suspect wizards would just use stone shape to make really thin stone walls instead :)
I knew someone was going to bring up the Japanese eventually.
Now I want a magical paper sword.
Make it a +5 paper sword and it is pretty much unsunderable. :)
...Right above this particular entry in the book is a table which gives the typical statistics for walls, including those made of paper (who does that anyways?).
Asian settings have a lot of paper walls.
As far as a spell book, think about it. More than likely the pages in a spell book would be very close to the surface area of a 10' x 10' paper wall.
If we assume standard page sizes from common convention, 100, 8.5 x 11" paper pages would be about ~7 feet x 9 feet of paper. Very close to a 10x10 wall section and that wall section probably has wood or bamboo framing to give it usable rigidity.
If you can use a magic to strengthen paper then I would think it would be a valid avenue of research for use on wizards precious spell books.
I would say let him do it but it would be a research project and incur greater cost since your wall does not need to have spells inscribed on it which could mess with the magic that makes it more sturdy, and your spell book would.
Just a thought, could flesh to stone work on paper?
Just a thought, could flesh to stone work on paper?
If you could somehow make a piece of paper a 'creature' I would assume so since the spell itself requires a target of a creature.
Now if your asking if 'Flesh to Stone' can be used in conjunction with a creation feat to enchant paper then I think that would be up to your DM.
Just a thought, could flesh to stone work on paper?If you could somehow make a piece of paper a 'creature' I would assume so since the spell itself requires a target of a creature.
Now if your asking if 'Flesh to Stone' can be used in conjunction with a creation feat to enchant paper then I think that would be up to your DM.
Even then it wouldn't work as Flesh to Stone specifically says it only works on creatures made of FLESH. That means things like skeletons, iron golems, treants, and oozes are right out.
Along the same idea, but broader in scale-
Aside from "the rules say X" is there really a good reason to disallow a mage from just creating a relatively low level spell that preserves their books, with a largely indefinite duration?
I mean lets face it- a spellbook of the wizard Is their class feature.
A fighter can grab nearly any other weapon and be decent if he loses his baby, clerics can craft "rough" symbols if theirs get sundered, spontaneous casters can just eschew materials and keep their spells casting forever..
Magi have the problem of their spell book. Is there really a good concrete reason to not let them fairly easily be made immune to some twit with a torch?
-S
Even then it wouldn't work as Flesh to Stone specifically says it only works on creatures made of FLESH. That means things like skeletons, iron golems, treants, and oozes are right out.Just a thought, could flesh to stone work on paper?If you could somehow make a piece of paper a 'creature' I would assume so since the spell itself requires a target of a creature.
Now if your asking if 'Flesh to Stone' can be used in conjunction with a creation feat to enchant paper then I think that would be up to your DM.
The spell also states that things held onto or possessed by creatures are also turned to stone. So theoretically turn a minion- and his 2 held pages to stone, chop off the fingers from the statue and BAM- you have a stone spell book page. So is it fair to only allow evil casters to have stone spell books?
If the person(s) making the spellbook is named "Yomiko Readman" (or "The Paper Sisters") then yes.
In seriousness: regarding magically treated WALLS, I think you could have paper walls with the magical enhancement, but bear in mind paper walls are paper stretched across a wooden frame.
I don't think there's a flat off raw spell that would allow hardening of paper for use of a spellbook, but I'd reckon coming up with a way of even simply alchemically treating paper to make it more resilient would be feasible. Sort of the way elves treat leaves to make bronzeleaf.
As for flesh to stone on paper... it only affects creatures, not objects. A very laid back (or easily amused) GM might allow it to work on a construct made of vellum, parchment, or palimpsest, since those are skin-based writing materials. (But not paper, as that's made of plant fiber.)
Why go to all the trouble and mental gymnastics? A wizard does not need his spell book any time other than when he prepares his spells. If he is caught off-guard then, the sundering of his spell book is the least of his worries. Just keep it in an adamantine box. Even better, keep it in an extra-dimensional space.
Just keep it in an adamantine box.
Bind the book in binding made of adamantine.
Make the cover out of adamantine.
And then I guess animate object your spellbook.
If you can get the celestial template on it after that, it gets DR/evil, right? Not bad.
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Along the same idea, but broader in scale-
Aside from "the rules say X" is there really a good reason to disallow a mage from just creating a relatively low level spell that preserves their books, with a largely indefinite duration?
I mean lets face it- a spellbook of the wizard Is their class feature.
A fighter can grab nearly any other weapon and be decent if he loses his baby, clerics can craft "rough" symbols if theirs get sundered, spontaneous casters can just eschew materials and keep their spells casting forever..Magi have the problem of their spell book. Is there really a good concrete reason to not let them fairly easily be made immune to some twit with a torch?
-S
I'd like to make a spell book have a personality with stats and saving throws.
<Merlin tries to open his spellbook> It replies "Get lost Merl! I've got a headache!"
I am not sure but I still use the rules from magic of farun
Bad chart here
** spoiler omitted **Alos had some lovely enchantments for a spell book as well
An excellent chart to be sure but it was in complete arcane (at least when I saw it). It is one I like to use often because it's the small things like this that help add flavor.
Ah yeah I had forgot that. Yeah that chart and alot of the things from it came from 2e FR book. One of the volo guides. They added a few mechanics but the chart and cost is the very same.
Great stuff though, I love stuff like that.
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Well, since we are talking about creating Magic Items and just using the spell, I would simply say, sure it would work. You would take the nature of modifying paper walls and apply it to your spellbook with some modifications and done.
I would say that while you are at it, Animate Object, Alarm, and a few others thrown in would be a great idea (course you need a cleric to help as for some reason Wizards can't cast Animate Object- so that movie with Mickey Mouse and the brooms can't be roleplayed with d20-ish rules at all!)
And what gives?! Animate Object is an arcane AND divine spell, but wizards can't cast it... makes no sense at all. Sorry the spells just have never made any sense at all. lol
Well, since we are talking about creating Magic Items and just using the spell, I would simply say, sure it would work. You would take the nature of modifying paper walls and apply it to your spellbook with some modifications and done.
I would say that while you are at it, Animate Object, Alarm, and a few others thrown in would be a great idea (course you need a cleric to help as for some reason Wizards can't cast Animate Object- so that movie with Mickey Mouse and the brooms can't be roleplayed with d20-ish rules at all!)
And what gives?! Animate Object is an arcane AND divine spell, but wizards can't cast it... makes no sense at all. Sorry the spells just have never made any sense at all. lol
Though it is true wizards can't cast it, they can still incorporate it into magical items (except spell trigger items) simply by raising the Spellcraft DC by 5.
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Though it is true wizards can't cast it, they can still incorporate it into magical items (except spell trigger items) simply by raising the Spellcraft DC by 5.Well, since we are talking about creating Magic Items and just using the spell, I would simply say, sure it would work. You would take the nature of modifying paper walls and apply it to your spellbook with some modifications and done.
I would say that while you are at it, Animate Object, Alarm, and a few others thrown in would be a great idea (course you need a cleric to help as for some reason Wizards can't cast Animate Object- so that movie with Mickey Mouse and the brooms can't be roleplayed with d20-ish rules at all!)
And what gives?! Animate Object is an arcane AND divine spell, but wizards can't cast it... makes no sense at all. Sorry the spells just have never made any sense at all. lol
REALLY? Where is that? That has so bugged the heck out of me for ages!
REALLY? Where is that? That has so bugged the heck out of me for ages!Though it is true wizards can't cast it, they can still incorporate it into magical items (except spell trigger items) simply by raising the Spellcraft DC by 5.Well, since we are talking about creating Magic Items and just using the spell, I would simply say, sure it would work. You would take the nature of modifying paper walls and apply it to your spellbook with some modifications and done.
I would say that while you are at it, Animate Object, Alarm, and a few others thrown in would be a great idea (course you need a cleric to help as for some reason Wizards can't cast Animate Object- so that movie with Mickey Mouse and the brooms can't be roleplayed with d20-ish rules at all!)
And what gives?! Animate Object is an arcane AND divine spell, but wizards can't cast it... makes no sense at all. Sorry the spells just have never made any sense at all. lol
Really. You can find it under Magic Item Creation.
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Unlike v3.5, all you need to create magic items are the proper feat/skill investments, and (in most cases) a caster level. Even crappy casters such as the ranger or bard can be just as good at creating magic items as a wizard, if they invest heavily into Spellcraft and have the proper feats.
Heck even fighters, without a caster level, can do it now provided they have the right feats and skills.
Now I want a magical paper sword.
Here's a video on how to make an Origami Sword, now all you need is someone to enchant it.